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conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

Rubbish. The only thing he shredded was the truth. :roll:

Krugman was only brought up as a deflection. By "misparaphrasing" what Krugman said Harshaw posted "wah wah, Krugman did it too". It was a sad attempt because Krugman didn't sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery for 8 years. A republican gets elected president and BAM "we gotta spend money and run up the deficits." That's flamingly hypocritical from any republican but Ryan was the poster boy for the right concerning debt.

Ryan's statement proves republicans are flaming hypocrite liars who let Americans suffer and suffer longer for their own political gain. Hence all the whining and deflecting in the thread. On a side note, here's a thread about "reverend" Ryan.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gover...ul-gives-sermon-book-fiscal-conservatism.html
 
Was that Obama's fault too?

Remember how the alt-rightists went ape-**** over his Nobel prize?

Or is that still present tense ?
I think Obama will award himself a Nobel Prize before long.
 
Sure, there was indisputable proof that republicans and the conservative media was lying to them about deficits. But like a love struck girl, conservatives continually denied the facts. they always had their debt hero Paul Ryan there to keep the fantasy going. here's what he had to say Tuesday

“One of the things that we’re focusing on is getting people back to work, is economic growth,” Ryan told reporters Tuesday. “You can’t ever balance the budget if you don’t get this economy growing.”

GOP concerns about deficits, debt disappear in Trump era | The Seattle Times

mmmm, what was wrong with that focus when 600,000 people were losing their jobs each month at the peak of the Great Bush Recession? oh yea, the President was a democrat. Just more proof republicans put their political agenda ahead of the American people.

Cons are...well cons.
 
ARC, I understand your desire to cheerlead for the first post you think tells you what you want to hear but this thread is not about Krugman. Its about the fact that Paul Ryan said

“One of the things that we’re focusing on is getting people back to work, is economic growth,” Ryan told reporters Tuesday. “You can’t ever balance the budget if you don’t get this economy growing.”

that's the opposite of what ryan and repubicans said for 8 years. And democrats told you for 8 years . Debt and deficits was the excuse republicans used to stop any thing that would have helped the economy or the unemployed. Now you can no longer deny that republicans used your ignorance to sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery.

so far not one conservative (or conservative like poster) has addressed the thread topic. Big shock.
this thread is flip flopping on deficit concerns, which Krugman has definitely done. admit it, you respect morons like Krugman. what you don't respect is consistency because you are a hyper partisan shill
 
So you didn't read the article, either?

Krugman explains that infrastructure spending is likely to be helpful, while tax cuts for the wealthy is not.

deficits don't matter, until the left doesn't get what they want. then they do matter.

so yes, I did read the article.
 
No, the coattails of Reaganonomic and Clinton signing every economic bill Newt gave him are what created the surplus and economy of the 90s. Bubba’s only contribution was to slash the Military.
OK, again? Reagan was out of office for 4 years before Clinton was inaugurated. Reagan's policies increased the deficit and debt, not reduced them. Since you forgot, there was a nasty recession around 1990 -- so if we're attributing economic effects over 4 years after Reagan was out, then we should also attribute that recession to him.


Bush Inherited the tech bubble recession and after 911 he had to rebuild the Military. His tax cuts created a great economy, but after Democrats took majority power in DC in the 2006 midterm elections it started to slide.
Pretty much none of that is correct. In fact, it's utter nonsense with no basis in reality.

The economy had mostly recovered from the Dot Com meltdown. Bush didn't have to "rebuild the military," he made a deliberate choice to invade Afghanistan, do a half-assed job of it, then needlessly invaded Iraq because he wanted to avenge his father's failure.

The economy didn't improve because of his tax cuts (which were still in effect, untouched, all the way through to 2014 iirc). There was a global bubble in both real estate and finance, and it was unsustainable. In the same way that Clinton was lucky to preside over the "Peace Dividend," economic improvements under Bush were mostly a matter of timing.

The economy didn't crater because of Congress in 2006. Congress can't actually pass any laws unless the President signs them, remember? Absolutely nothing that Congress did caused the destruction of Bear Stearns or Lehman or Countrywide or the commercial paper market. Congress did not force mortgage originators to engage in fraud, to sign up any warm bodies they could find to buy loans. It did not force Lehman to buy a ton of subprime junk, or to use bad VAR models. It did not require the ratings agencies to cave to pressure from Wall Street investment banks. It passed no laws that froze the commercial paper markets.

Go ahead. Show me the laws. Show me what laws Bush signed that killed Lehman.
 
OK, again? Reagan was out of office for 4 years before Clinton was inaugurated. Reagan's policies increased the deficit and debt, not reduced them. Since you forgot, there was a nasty recession around 1990 -- so if we're attributing economic effects over 4 years after Reagan was out, then we should also attribute that recession to him.



Pretty much none of that is correct. In fact, it's utter nonsense with no basis in reality.

The economy had mostly recovered from the Dot Com meltdown. Bush didn't have to "rebuild the military," he made a deliberate choice to invade Afghanistan, do a half-assed job of it, then needlessly invaded Iraq because he wanted to avenge his father's failure.

The economy didn't improve because of his tax cuts (which were still in effect, untouched, all the way through to 2014 iirc). There was a global bubble in both real estate and finance, and it was unsustainable. In the same way that Clinton was lucky to preside over the "Peace Dividend," economic improvements under Bush were mostly a matter of timing.

The economy didn't crater because of Congress in 2006. Congress can't actually pass any laws unless the President signs them, remember? Absolutely nothing that Congress did caused the destruction of Bear Stearns or Lehman or Countrywide or the commercial paper market. Congress did not force mortgage originators to engage in fraud, to sign up any warm bodies they could find to buy loans. It did not force Lehman to buy a ton of subprime junk, or to use bad VAR models. It did not require the ratings agencies to cave to pressure from Wall Street investment banks. It passed no laws that froze the commercial paper markets.

Go ahead. Show me the laws. Show me what laws Bush signed that killed Lehman.

Feel free to name a Clinton economic policy that did not originate from the GOP majorities in the house and senate? All I know of are the tax increases late in his 2nd term, that helped cause the Tech Bubble recession.

Bush decided to go to war based on the word of the same Intelligence Officials who are now putting out Fake News on Trump.

The Community Reinvestment Act forced Banks to give Home loans to people who could not afford them. This cussed the 2008 Crash. The CRA was invented by Carter. In the 90s when CRA started to fail Clinton deregulated Freddy & Fanny to prop it up. With banks being able to dump all their bad loans on Freddy & Fanny they went hog wild with subprime lending.

In 2006 Bush tried to Reregulate Freddy & Fanny, this might have prevented the 2008 crash but Dems blocked him.

Bushes only culpability was waiting until after Democrats controlled the Senate and Congress to try to re-regulate Freddy & Fanny.
 
Feel free to name a Clinton economic policy that did not originate from the GOP majorities in the house and senate? All I know of are the tax increases late in his 2nd term, that helped cause the Tech Bubble recession.
1993 tax reform that cut deficit by $500 billion, which included taxing top earners and cutting military spending. Republicans pitched a fit, and lost. Economy wasn't destroyed as a result. In fact, we saw 7 years of uninterrupted growth, while Republicans and Clinton/Dems fought constantly over fiscal policy. Compromise was rare and grudging.

Various trade agreements, around 300. Note: He did NOT pass NAFTA, that was actually signed in by Bush 41 right at the end of his term.

Deregulated banks in 1999. That was as much his idea as Republicans. It's also one of the changes that caused the bubble and meltdown in 2008.


Bush decided to go to war based on the word of the same Intelligence Officials who are now putting out Fake News on Trump.
*bzzt* wrong

Bush came into office looking for an excuse to attack Iraq. The administration largely pushed the intelligence agencies to produce intel that supported their view. E.g. Agencies like the CIA strongly distrusted Chalabi, who had the ear of the DoD. Cheney's office tried to discredit Joe Wilson, for daring to contradict a fake report on Nigerian yellowcake sold to Iraq.

And of course, the agents who worked on the Iraq intel have basically nothing to do with current investigations into Russia, CIA put in new safeguards to prevent that from happening etc
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-the-bush-white-house/?utm_term=.43e316e70a8b

Why Did We Invade Iraq? - The Atlantic


The Community Reinvestment Act forced Banks to give Home loans to people who could not afford them. This cussed the 2008 Crash.
nope, nope, nope

CRA blocks discrimination in lending (redlining). It didn't mandate banks to loan to unfit lenders. It didn't cause mortgage originators to fill out reams of fraudulent applications. It didn't create the securitization of loans that let mortgage originators and banks package inferior loans into obscure financial instruments that buyers didn't understand. It didn't pressure ratings agencies to give good ratings in order to keep bank business; it didn't force investment banks to threaten ratings agencies with pulling their business if they didn't get rosy ratings... etc

cra-chartg1109.gif



With banks being able to dump all their bad loans on Freddy & Fanny they went hog wild with subprime lending.
nope, not even close, total bull****

Fannie and Freddie were very late to subprime. They were actually losing market share when the bubble was expanding rapidly, because so many people wanted to buy mortgages (typically in a securitized form). They only started buying in earnest around 2005, when they realized they were missing out.

FannieFreddieRit.JPG


freddie-mac-fannie-may-fraction-of-loans-held.jpg



In 2006 Bush tried to Reregulate Freddy & Fanny, this might have prevented the 2008 crash but Dems blocked him.
F&F had lots of issues in the early 00s, due to poor accounting practices and the competition eating their lunch. As GSEs, they had a unique role -- soak up those 30 year mortgages, which is what they were doing whilst the bubble was expanding. They were at the end of the chain, and again they lost share as competition heated up. If F&F hadn't bought any of those bad mortgages, the bubble would still have been huge, as other entities would have just bought more of the crap.

F&F had a similar issue to Lehman. Both were caught without a chair when the music stopped, and were loaded down with underperforming loans and securities. The difference is that Lehman wanted to unload, and couldn't; whereas F&F mostly held onto mortgages and collected the income, and sold very little.


Bushes only culpability was waiting until after Democrats controlled the Senate and Congress to try to re-regulate Freddy & Fanny.
I concur Bush 43 had limited responsibility in the mess. He refused to regulate properly; he had no interest in popping the bubble early; he screwed up handling foreclosures.

The real culprit was the private markets. They were the ones that originated bad loans; generated obscure securities, which generated huge systemic risks; generated fraudulent loans; sold securities which let the originators and middle-men not just get away with no skin in the game, but bet against their own products; bought and sold all those homes, and so on.
 
Feel free to name a Clinton economic policy that did not originate from the GOP majorities in the house and senate? All I know of are the tax increases late in his 2nd term, that helped cause the Tech Bubble recession.
You also still haven't answered my question:

What did Congress do in 2006 to cause the crash? Yet again, Congress couldn't pass any laws at that time without Bush's signature. The only way Congress could somehow be responsible is if Bush signed a law. So what did they do?

We already know it wasn't CRA. Aside from being adjusted nearly every year of Bush's term, most of the mortgages originated were not CRA (see above).

So. What else ya got?
 
Taxes and outlays matter.

Debts and deficits generally do not.

if deficits don't matter, then why have taxes at all? you are obviously not sharp enough to see the sophomoric flaw in your circular reasoning here.
 
and you said deficits don't. taxes and spending are the two sides to that coin

take off your clown shoes and stay a while.

How did the WW2 debt hurt us?

4f0f511984e01d5513dc8709544ac4fa.jpg


The answer is that it didn't. The spending helped us because it was useful spending. Further, the taxation didn't hurt us: we had an economic boom!
 
Krugman was only brought up as a deflection. By "misparaphrasing" what Krugman said Harshaw posted "wah wah, Krugman did it too". It was a sad attempt because Krugman didn't sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery for 8 years. A republican gets elected president and BAM "we gotta spend money and run up the deficits." That's flamingly hypocritical from any republican but Ryan was the poster boy for the right concerning debt.

Ryan's statement proves republicans are flaming hypocrite liars who let Americans suffer and suffer longer for their own political gain. Hence all the whining and deflecting in the thread. On a side note, here's a thread about "reverend" Ryan.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gover...ul-gives-sermon-book-fiscal-conservatism.html

I made this photoshop meme years ago when Ryan first came on the political scene. It still seems to apply....

homeless1copy.jpg
 
Republicans are dead set against deficits... when a Democrat is the President.

We're already seeing, both in word and deed, that most Republican elected officials don't care about deficits when a Republican (even a nominal Republican) is in office.

Some do still care, so we will see some resistance from those Republican deficit hawks. But the leadership? Nope.

It's not clear yet how the Republican voters feel. We'll have to wait a few years, and watch deficits go into the stratosphere, to see what the public thinks.
I agree. There are plenty of big government Republicans in the GOP.
 
How did the WW2 debt hurt us?

4f0f511984e01d5513dc8709544ac4fa.jpg


The answer is that it didn't. The spending helped us because it was useful spending. Further, the taxation didn't hurt us: we had an economic boom!

in 1971 our creditors finally called us out for being full of **** and not being able to honor our promises. It is referred to as the Nixon shock

it created a decade of instability and was a scary time.

any more softballs you want me to respond to?
 
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Taxes and outlays matter.

Debts and deficits generally do not.

But we don't need taxes at all since you claim they are not used to pay the government's bills and since we can can finance everything with deficit spending and the endless printing of money.
 
in 1971 our creditors finally called us out for being full of **** and not being able to honor our promises. It is referred to as the Nixon shock

it created a decade of instability and was a scary time.

any more softballs you want me to respond to?

Umm.. the debt was high in the late 40s, you are talking about something that happened when the debt was lower than it had been in two decades.
 
But we don't need taxes at all since you claim they are not used to pay the government's bills and since we can can finance everything with deficit spending and the endless printing of money.

No i don't. Taxes play a uniquely valuable role of draining money out of the economy. They are most effective when they target bloated sectors of the economy. If Bill Gates gets another billion dollars, he probably won't change behavior to become more productive. If a hundred thousand inner city kids each got $10,000, that could make them immensely more productive.
 
No i don't. Taxes play a uniquely valuable role of draining money out of the economy. They are most effective when they target bloated sectors of the economy. If Bill Gates gets another billion dollars, he probably won't change behavior to become more productive. If a hundred thousand inner city kids each got $10,000, that could make them immensely more productive.

How does giving someone something make them more productive?
 
Umm.. the debt was high in the late 40s, you are talking about something that happened when the debt was lower than it had been in two decades.

umm, I'm talking about things that happened under that economic model.

you bring up the 40's to explain today's system shows you really don't know what you are talking about.

ps - your chart measured debt in relation to GDP - according to GDP - we entered a major recession immediately following ww2.

so anyway you want to look at it, you are clueless
 
How does giving someone something make them more productive?

That's a good question.

If i'm hungry but have no money or skills, i might take a low wage job. But then i'm kinda trapped, i can't spend time/money on developing new skills because i need to maintain income to stay alive. I don't make enough income to accumulate savings, so there's no clear way out. Some break free, but it's a far more uphill battle than it needs to be.

On the other hand, if i have time and money, i can go to school or create a business plan. I have more resources, so i have more options. I have resources that i can spend to make myself more productive.

The poor have no power, no resources, and by extension no freedom. I'm exaggerating of course, but my point is that every human is an investment. Every human being would die alone if left alone. We can't feed ourselves as babies. We all need help, and we're fooling ourselves if we expect otherwise.
 
That's a good question.

If i'm hungry but have no money or skills, i might take a low wage job. But then i'm kinda trapped, i can't spend time/money on developing new skills because i need to maintain income to stay alive. I don't make enough income to accumulate savings, so there's no clear way out. Some break free, but it's a far more uphill battle than it needs to be.

On the other hand, if i have time and money, i can go to school or create a business plan. I have more resources, so i have more options. I have resources that i can spend to make myself more productive.

The poor have no power, no resources, and by extension no freedom. I'm exaggerating of course, but my point is that every human is an investment. Every human being would die alone if left alone. We can't feed ourselves as babies. We all need help, and we're fooling ourselves if we expect otherwise.

No every human needs to invest in them self. No one can do that for them...
 
Republicans are dead set against deficits... when a Democrat is the President.

We're already seeing, both in word and deed, that most Republican elected officials don't care about deficits when a Republican (even a nominal Republican) is in office.

Some do still care, so we will see some resistance from those Republican deficit hawks. But the leadership? Nope.

It's not clear yet how the Republican voters feel. We'll have to wait a few years, and watch deficits go into the stratosphere, to see what the public thinks.

It isn't that the Republicans don't care about deficits. They just care about their re-election chances more and that has been the case for some time now. George H.W. Bush destroyed his re-election chances when he broke his "no new taxes" pledge in an honest effort to bring down the deficit. The deal was that the Democratically controlled Congress would cut spending three dollars for every dollar assessed in new taxes. Unfortunately the tax increases (all on the rich) cost tens of thousands of jobs for the middle class, didn't hurt the rich at all, and sent the economy into deeper recession. And though the taxes went into effect, somehow the spending cuts never happened.

And the truth is, we the people aren't keen on any spending cuts in our social security checks or cuts in government services we depend on or anything else that affects us directly. We sure think they ought to cut spending everywhere else though.

For me it is not cutting spending on those things people have to have. Where the spending cuts must come is in the enormous bureaucracy, government infrastructure, duplication, and black holes where nobody really knows where the money is going.
 
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