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Thread: If Obamacare is so bad....

  1. #21
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Why can’t republicans come up with a better plan? How about a plan? Yea, they’ve had 6 years. We’ve had 3 full years of the exchanges. Certainly there is enough data from that alone to help come up with a plan. it doesn't even have to be a better plan. They can just lie that its better and their base wont hold them accountable. Their base just needs something to repeat over and over. I'm thinking something along the lines of “sure it covers fewer people and costs more but its better because there are no death panels”.

    Certainly even some conservatives have to start to wonder how "repeal and replace" got repealed and replaced with "repeal and delay"?
    What makes you think they don't have a plan? Just because they haven't told you?

    Heck, I wouldn't tell you either.

    LOL!!
    TANSTAAFL

    “Certain types of loudmouthism should be a capital offense among decent people.” ― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

  2. #22
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Did I say "as a percent of GDP "? I don't think so.
    Here are 2013 numbers for per capita public spending on health care. I took these ones. They were higher in 2015, but the general picture is the same. It's just too tedious looking for statistics with an iPhone.
    OK, and....?

    Since I have the advantage of being at a computer here's a graph for you to check out. Switching to costs per capita still doesn't make the US look very good.





    It might also be noted that the numbers seem to be calculated over the total populations. That would mean that the actual number of beneficiaries would be lower in the US than in the other countries meaning higher coverage per beneficiary in the US.
    So what you're saying is:

    The US spends more, and covers fewer people, than nations with single payer / universal health care. Thanks for helping me make my point.


    As to shopping around, you should do so. In the US the costs of treatment differ quite a bit.
    Did you not read what I wrote?

    Health care is not a commodity like food or cars or houses. If you have a heart attack, you can't spend 30 minutes shopping around for the hospital with the cheapest emergency room. You will not do well if you tell the EMTs to take you to a hospital an extra 20 minutes away, because they charge less for X-rays. You can't get an angiogram in one hospital, then get transported to another to have a stent put in.

    To expand on that: In the private insurance system, it's nearly impossible to figure out your costs. Sure, you can call a few MRI facilities -- if there is more than one in your area that takes your insurance, of course -- and hear different prices. But your insurer is paying part of the bill, and that can vary based on which facility you use.

    Further: Sometimes you can choose, sometimes you can't. If you have a heart condition, you have the choice of a few medicines, and some may be generic. If you need chemotherapy, you can't pick and choose.

    Or: Are you going to decline to get chemo, because surgery is cheaper?

    Or: Am I going to use a worse doctor, because he's cheaper?


  3. #23
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The simple fact is that most people that purposely did not get health care made choices based on priorities.
    Yes, like "food" and "rent" instead of "health insurance."

    And again, as I pointed out: People were frequently denied coverage, and the rate at which they were denied was increasing. Meaning that at least 20% of people tried to get covered, and were refused. Even people who had coverage were getting denied on a regular basis, and routinely fighting with insurers to get coverage.


    Others in similar circumstances made the choice to get health care at the sacrifice of other conveniences...often including their time because they sought second forms of income. You bleat on all you like but the fact remains...the vast majority of society has since we became a country, taken care of their health care needs. Somehow, this horrific thing that no one could possibly make happen...they made it happen.
    And again, 70% of Americans got their coverage through their employer, or the government. 11% got it some other way.

    And again, an increasing percentage were unable to get care, as more and more employers were phasing out coverage and/or people were taking jobs that didn't offer health insurance.

    And again, the cost of care was skyrocketing. By 2010, a single person who needed coverage would have to cough up $5,000/yr. If you wanted to cover your family, it was $13,000. And prices were spiralling out of control.



    So no, it wasn't as simple as just taking a second job, or pawning your Xbox.


    You are a true believer. I dont expect you to have even the capacity to see the problems the ACA is facing. The reality is...if it was such an awesome thing, they wouldnt have had to lie to get it passed. If it was working, they wouldnt have to lie to promote it. And if it was working as well as you believe it is, they would not be able to even consider repealing it.


    I'm not a huge fan of the ACA. We would have been much better off if we had gone single-payer or universal in the 50s. We didn't, so now we are screwed.

    We knew, before it was passed, that the ACA could work. Mitt Romney's implementation had worked successfully in MA for years before the ACA was passed.

    Many of the problems of the ACA are far from unfixable. Many of them are because the Republicans have been trying repeatedly to kill it, and do everything they can to turn it into a political liability for the Democrats. And now, that's blowing up in their faces, because this is pretty much the only conservative option available that will work better than the old system, and they know it.

    And of course, you didn't cite a single statistic or source for any of your claims. No surprise there. *yawn*

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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And where does that leave us?

    • Insurance premiums were rising at double-digit rates for a decade before the ACA was passed.

    • There was no guaranteed issue. Insurers spent millions trying to find reasons not to cover people who were a bad risk, or ratepayers with expensive or chronic issues.

    • We'd have to kick millions of people off of Medicaid.

    • Insurers can reinstate lifetime limits on individuals.

    • Insurers can go back to not covering preventative care.

    • No more exchanges. Ever try to buy health insurance on your own pre-ACA?

    Why is that not sounding particularly fantastic?
    1. Still are
    2. still do
    3. So? Millions weren't on Medicaid before..
    4. So? How many voters you think were affected by lifetime limits
    5. they don't cover preventative care now.
    6. Yes... I bought insurance on my own prior to the ACA. No big deal
    The truth is... that republicans could repeal Obamacare without having ANYTHING in place and it would not be a big deal politically. there probably would be rather little fallout.

  5. #25
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Obamacare is not the Republicans to fix. The Democrats own it, the Democrats passed it in the dead of night without any Republican support and without reading it. The Republicans have proposed a fix. Repeal it.

    What is the Democrat plan to fix this monstrosity?
    er uh jimbo, you realize you're not responding to my post. See how once again a conservative (or conservative like poster) has an emotional need to flail at the facts. Let me help you understand how you're not responding to my post.

    this thread is not about "fixing" Obamacare. Its about republicans giving up "repeal" narrative for "repeal and replace" narrative. They had to do that because Obamacare was working ( I know that upsets you but please soldier on). And the proof Obamacare is working is they added "and replace". Now 6 years into Obamacare and 3 years into the exchanges, they are waffling, back peddling, hemming and hawing with "repeal and delay". Again, this thread is not about "fixing" Obamacare. Its about republicans pandering to an ignorant base with "repeal and replace sort of, maybe if we can think of something SQUIRREL!" plan.
    Last edited by Vern; 01-09-17 at 06:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredUSN View Post
    and I turn down more work than I accept to avoid hiring Americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    What proof is there Qaddafi ordered or financed that bombing? ......Qaddafi had the integrity to fight with his military. I don't believe he used terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You claim the economy was destroyed when Bush left office

  6. #26
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Oh don't worry about that dishonest ploy. Trying to shift responsibilities to others is normal for liberals.
    er uh Jog, this thread about republicans saying they want to "repeal and replace" Obamacare. when Jimbo doesn't understand what the thread is about and flails about, he cant help it. When you do it, its dishonest.
    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredUSN View Post
    and I turn down more work than I accept to avoid hiring Americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    What proof is there Qaddafi ordered or financed that bombing? ......Qaddafi had the integrity to fight with his military. I don't believe he used terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You claim the economy was destroyed when Bush left office

  7. #27
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    I think what people are missing is this battle is all about the 40 million people who did not have health insurance for one reason or another, prior to Obamacare.

    There are better ways to fix that than completely dismantling the existing system, and building a new federal system.
    sorry chuckie, once again a conservative has to post a fantasy to obediently flail at reality. There was no dismantling of anything. You can still call up an insurance company and buy insurance. Now the only difference is they don't ask you a bunch of questions then you wait to see if they'll allow you to buy it. And chuckie, this thread is about the republicans claiming they want to "repeal and replace" Obamacare. Its not about whatever delusion pops in your head. Be it "dismantling" anything or this doozy

    Don't kid yourself. Full - on socialized, unionized medicine was the ultimate long term, goal, and the Democrats were willing use false promises to screw the 320 million who were just fine to get there.
    hey, remember when you believed President Obama was born in kenya or that he wanted to kill old people. you're still believing the same liars.
    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredUSN View Post
    and I turn down more work than I accept to avoid hiring Americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    What proof is there Qaddafi ordered or financed that bombing? ......Qaddafi had the integrity to fight with his military. I don't believe he used terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You claim the economy was destroyed when Bush left office

  8. #28
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And where does that leave us?

    • Insurance premiums were rising at double-digit rates for a decade before the ACA was passed.

    • There was no guaranteed issue. Insurers spent millions trying to find reasons not to cover people who were a bad risk, or ratepayers with expensive or chronic issues.

    • We'd have to kick millions of people off of Medicaid.

    • Insurers can reinstate lifetime limits on individuals.

    • Insurers can go back to not covering preventative care.

    • No more exchanges. Ever try to buy health insurance on your own pre-ACA?

    Why is that not sounding particularly fantastic?
    Probably because obamacare is even worse.

  9. #29
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern View Post
    Certainly even some conservatives have to start to wonder how "repeal and replace" got repealed and replaced with "repeal and delay"?
    Repeal-and-delay acknowledges two facts:

    1. Obamacare is better than no Obamacare
    2. The GOP has no functional alternative to Obamacare

    So it stays on the books.

  10. #30
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    Re: If Obamacare is so bad....

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And where does that leave us?

    • Insurance premiums were rising at double-digit rates for a decade before the ACA was passed.

    • There was no guaranteed issue. Insurers spent millions trying to find reasons not to cover people who were a bad risk, or ratepayers with expensive or chronic issues.

    • We'd have to kick millions of people off of Medicaid.

    • Insurers can reinstate lifetime limits on individuals.

    • Insurers can go back to not covering preventative care.

    • No more exchanges. Ever try to buy health insurance on your own pre-ACA?

    Why is that not sounding particularly fantastic?
    Government was involved in healthcare to the detriment of healthcare.

    If you get government out of it, you will find costs go down and services improve, just like any service being provided.

    The following was from an interview with Milton Friedman in 2006. It's spot on.

    https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/emfre...lton-friedman/

    LA: Is there an area here in the United States in which we have not been as aggressive as we should in promoting property rights and free markets?

    MF: Yes, in the field of medical care. We have a socialist-communist system of distributing medical care.

    Instead of letting people hire their own physicians and pay them, no one pays his or her own medical bills. Instead, there’s a third party payment system. It is a communist system and it has a communist result.

    Despite this, we’ve had numerous miracles in medical science. From the discovery of penicillin, to new surgical techniques, to MRIs and CAT scans, the last 30 or 40 years have been a period of miraculous change in medical science. On the other hand, we’ve seen costs skyrocket. Nobody is happy: physicians don’t like it, patients don’t like it.

    Why?

    Because none of them are responsible for themselves.

    You no longer have a situation in which a patient chooses a physician, receives a service, gets charged, and pays for it. There is no direct relation between the patient and the physician.

    The physician is an employee of an insurance company or an employee of the government.

    Today, a third party pays the bills. As a result, no one who visits the doctor asks what the charge is going to be—somebody else is going to take care of that. The end result is third party payment and, worst of all, third party treatment.
    ...we've been quite content to produce
    an unaware and compliant citizenry.


    Demokrat elite discussing Demokrats: Ivey(D) & Podesta(D)


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