• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Conservative vs. Liberal worldviews

You can fill a whole library with books answering different aspects of this question.

Conservatives are Yin and liberals are Yang. Two opposing forces that are actually complementary and interconnected. They rely upon each other to exist, in much the same way rival football teams may hate each other but at the same time rely on each other's existence to keep the sport from fading away (hard to play a game with only one team). In the same way, the United States and the Soviet Union, while ostensibly enemies, capitalized on each other's existence to force all of the other countries in the world to gravitate into their spheres of influence. As a result, both of them grew vastly more powerful than any of the other countries that had existed in human history.

One feature of conservatism almost regardless of culture or time period is that it implicitly accepts the hierarchy of relationships underwritten in social animal ethology, which is a complex way of saying that conservatives believe in alpha-beta relationships with guys like George W. Bush and Donald Trump being the alphas and all the poor/middle income blue collar conservative guys who vote for them being the betas. Pretty much the same as between fraternities and their leaders or between football jocks and their team captain. The leader and the captain get more benefits but the betas have the dubious honor of being better than the nerds outside of the football team/fraternity, who are usually liberals, homosexuals, academics, and other bookish types.

A persistent feature of liberalism is that it explicitly trivializes/challenges this hierarchy.


Pretty good boiling down to roots you did there. The OP posed a question, which while always good at generating a discussion answers frequently devolve into slogans/talking points and name calling.

I have strong disagreements with both liberal and conservative positions, at least as they are presented here in the U.S. And don't get me started on the "2 parties". It doesn't help that both sides have (with a few exceptions, mostly on the left) gone farther and farther out into their respective fields during my adult life. It would be easier if I could just swallow the dogma of one side or the other, but my head would explode.
 
You are suggesting that there is some "natural law" that would naturally create justice and fairness, and we humans should not interfere in it without our own artificial man-made laws. Just leave things free and this "natural law" will have things turn out just fine. If we are endowed by our creator with some "inalienable" rights, then it seems the same natural law would apply to the animals in the jungle. And yet we know that the laws of the jungle operate very, very differently. There seems to be this tacit assumption on your part that if everything was left free and natural, things would be best- we would have freedom, liberty, AND justice and fairness. I was just showing you that that without human law and justice, regulations and safety nets, as imperfect and constantly evolving as they are- nature and its laws are not what you seem to think they are and they naturally do not deliver any guarantees of fairness or justice- the hallmarks of a civil society

Food, shelter, healthcare, education and water as a basic human right ? Absolutely not !

Our Declaration enumerated inalienable rights, protections that preceded and trascend Govt.

Healthcare as a example doled out by a centralized Govt is and can never be considered a " Right ".

Rights are essentially restraints on other people and the Govt. They are limits set to guarantee that a individual be essentially left alone to live a free and prosperous existence.

Rights are NOT proactive assaults or mandated obligations placed on free people to meet a Governmental standard of fairness or justice.

A Centralized Govt cannot force me to relinquish more of my wealth to fund the creation of a " right " to help someone in need and then claim its a right. Its not, its tyranny

Rights cannot be infringed upon, but the quality and accessibility of Healthcare distributed by a centralized Gov can.

Rights are objectively defined, concepts like " charity, dignity, fairness and equality " are not. They are subjective and I can't think of a faster way to tyranny than to give the Govt the power and authority to be the ultimate arbiter of whats fair and dignified

Lol...and there's nothing modern or civil about what you're proposing. Its the motivation behind the creation of oir Declaration of Independence and the concepts and principles writren into our Constitution.

The US was founded upon revolutionary principles and since its founding this Nation has had to contend with naive individual's and destructive ideologies thay want this Nation to devolve into a authortarianism. No thanks.
 
Our Declaration enumerated inalienable rights, protections that preceded and trascend Govt.

Rights are objectively defined, concepts like " charity, dignity, fairness and equality " are not. They are subjective and I can't think of a faster way to tyranny than to give the Govt the power and authority to be the ultimate arbiter of whats fair and dignified

From the Declaration:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

How are "Liberty" and "the pursuit of Happiness" any more "objectively defined" than "charity, dignity, fairness and equality"?

What constitutes "liberty" to one man may infringe on the perceived liberty of another, for example. "the pursuit of Happiness" is even worse in that regard.

I agree with your basic premise from the perspective of the textural puritan when it comes to interpreting the Constitution (not that I am one). It's the idea that there is any objective definition of those terms that I am questioning.
 
Food, shelter, healthcare, education and water as a basic human right ? Absolutely not !.


I see. Way to be "compassionate". The US spearheaded and signed the Universal Declaration of Human rights back in 1948. All developed nations in the world today (and many developing ones) have since signed it and abide by it. Circumstances in countries who don't guarantee such basic human dignity for their own citizens are often seen as uncivilized and barbaric. In the late 1700s, it was common for a young child to die of the common cold, or to be paralyzed for life after a bout of polio. Today, it is considered unacceptable and barbaric, even if the child is born to poverty with parents unable to afford healthcare. Are you saying the US should now back out of the agreement? And of course, back out of torture agreements of the Geneva Convention too, I assume, while we are at it?

Who is it that really wants to live in Mogadishu?
 
Last edited:
I see. Way to be "compassionate". The US spearheaded and signed the Universal Declaration of Human rights back in 1948. All developed nations in the world today (and many developing ones) have since signed it and abide by it. Circumstances in countries who don't guarantee such basic human dignity for their own citizens are often seen as uncivilized and barbaric. In the late 1700s, it was common for a young child to die of the common cold, or to be paralyzed for life after a bout of polio. Today, it is considered unacceptable and barbaric, even if the child is born to poverty with parents unable to afford healthcare. Are you saying the US should now back out of the agreement? And of course, back out of torture agreements of the Geneva Convention too, I assume, while we are at it?

Who is it that really wants to live in Mogadishu?

No " agreement " supercedes our Constitution.
 
From the Declaration:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

How are "Liberty" and "the pursuit of Happiness" any more "objectively defined" than "charity, dignity, fairness and equality"?

What constitutes "liberty" to one man may infringe on the perceived liberty of another, for example. "the pursuit of Happiness" is even worse in that regard.

I agree with your basic premise from the perspective of the textural puritan when it comes to interpreting the Constitution (not that I am one). It's the idea that there is any objective definition of those terms that I am questioning.

Fairness and equality in the context of this discussion are subjective when Govt is given the authority to decide whats fair and whats not and the authors of the Declaration of the Constitution didn't include the self evident truths of life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness as obscure suggestions

The Charters of Freedom were explicitly writen to guarantee rights and liberties that transcended Govt and limited its authority
 
Wow.oK. But then you need to stop at with this nonsense about the intrinsic compassionate nature of conservatism. It is just social Darwinism.
 
Justice and fairness are not that relative. I thought you were the one who believed in a moral order in the universe. An easy rule of thumb to keep in mind is how would you like to be treated if you were someone else in your society? How would you like to be treated if you were a child born to poverty? Would you like to have an opportunity to not die of hunger? To have access to a basic education? Put yourself in other people's shoes. It's the golden rule, and one of the oldest moral maxims in all religious and cultural traditions around the world. it shouldn't be that hard.
 
Wow.oK. But then you need to stop at with this nonsense about the intrinsic compassionate nature of conservatism. It is just social Darwinism.

No its not, what you're describing is anarchy. Im not a anarchistic, Im a Conservative.
Limited Govt as spelled out by the US Constitution
 
A government incompetent to protect its own citizens, especially the weakest and most vulnerable, against the most inhumane circumstances, the most desperate situations, the most humiliating indignities- is anarchy. We have civility, law, order, justice, fairness, and watching out for the weak and vulnerable among us- because those things don't exist by themselves in nature.
 
Justice and fairness are not that relative. I thought you were the one who believed in a moral order in the universe. An easy rule of thumb to keep in mind is how would you like to be treated if you were someone else in your society? How would you like to be treated if you were a child born to poverty? Would you like to have an opportunity to not die of hunger? To have access to a basic education? Put yourself in other people's shoes. It's the golden rule, and one of the oldest moral maxims in all religious and cultural traditions around the world. it shouldn't be that hard.

Sounds like your describing the Golden rule. Compassion, morality, kindness, etc, treating others as you want to be treated, there's nothing wrong with any of that.

I have a problem with Govt mandates and forced obligations on the individual under the pretense of charity, kindness and altruism.

Its veiled tyranny. True compassion has nothing to do with pity, guilt or envy. A Govt that violates you rights or steals your liberty under the guise of compassion is anything but.

This narrative that societies are incapable of compassion and charity without Govts intervention is baseless. I guess when it comes down to it Socialist minded individuals have more faith in Govt than the individual.

Thats twisted
 
You didn't answer the question, which was regarding the statement you made about "rights" being something that could be "objectively defined".:

How are "Liberty" and "the pursuit of Happiness" any more "objectively defined" than "charity, dignity, fairness and equality"?

What constitutes "liberty" to one man may infringe on the perceived liberty of another, for example. "the pursuit of Happiness" is even worse in that regard.
 
I have found that a main difference if not the main one is that conservatives believe an individual's right to pursue her own happiness. Liberals, on the other hand, want the government to make the citizens live better.

Not that simple when you consider who is more likely to support the drug war and a ban on gay marriage.
 
Not that simple when you consider who is more likely to support the drug war and a ban on gay marriage.

That touches a problem with all of the broad thumb terms for political groupings. Talking with a friend who was political department head (Staatssekretär) of a Ministry and member of the Bundestag and was actually quite open to legalizing drugs pointed out that the reason he and his party (FDP wich is the most economically "conservative" party) had not approached this topic, was that parents were a problem and not the religious voters. A CDU (Christian Democratic Union) member -which is the most traditionally "conservative" party- of the county council said practically the same thing, when we discussed it and found this a pity, as the costs were wasted, as he pointed out. This fellow does not take drugs himself.

As to gay marriage, it is actually not necessarily a religious thing, though, most Christian Codices do consider the homosexual act itself to be a severe sin and marriage is a sacrament meant to support the creation of life. Therefore a marriage is a travesty. But a "liberal" in the original meaning of the term will also not think it very smart. Sociologically and economically it seems to be a waste of resources. The economic transfers and other privileges cast money and do not seem to make sense. Also in countries with constitutions like that of the US it is a very slippery slope, when you make citizens pay taxes that are used to support activities that are sinful in the statues of their religion. That is to force them to participate. This is a precedent of a kind of allowing Congress to pass a law that restricts religious practice or worse. This group of people may be pro gay rights and can even support gay marriage but not want it introduced without a proper and Constitutionally legal legislation.
 
I have a problem with Govt mandates and forced obligations on the individual under the pretense of charity, kindness and altruism...
This narrative that societies are incapable of compassion and charity without Govts intervention is baseless.

Charity, kindness, and compassion, while admirable and certainly present without government intervention, has never been adequate by itself. That's not a baseless claim. All history supports that. You seem to think that charity, kindness, and altruism have been adequate by themselves in the past to take care of serious problems in society in an acceptable manner. Child labor laws were not passed because the problem was fixing itself through anyone's sense of voluntary charity when left alone. It was getting worse, as industrialists aggressively exploited and abused the labor of young children with temerity to make ever larger financial empires. And the kids still did not have enough to eat. Only sensible regulations and laws finally put a stop to that: child labor laws, minimum wage laws, etc....

Social security and Medicare were not passed because the elderly, especially the poor, were being taken care of adequately at home or by charity. The situation was a travesty. Where were the charities and churches to take care of these elderly then?

And most recently, before the passage of the ACA, as recently as 2009, 45,000 Americans were dying EVERY SINGLE YEAR due to lack of access to the healthcare system. This is not including things like going blind or living with chronic pain or disability. Many of them were refused insurance by the health insurance industry exactly because they were sick to start with. That's how the free market works when left completely alone and free. It doesn't always work out for the best. Where were your charities then? How barbaric.

There is nothing "inherently compassionate" about going back to such horrifyingly unacceptable statistics.

When there is a major storm and the traffic lights go at the local major intersection, people generally do OK driving through the intersection. When all else fails, people automatically take care by themselves. They are generally careful, yield to pedestrians, take turns crossing the intersection while looking carefully in all directions. But I wouldn't want to get rid of the traffic light altogether forever as "government tyranny". There is something to be said for having a formal, reliable, and enforceable system of traffic regulation and safety in place for important things. Protection of basic human rights of the citizens of our country is important too- important enough to have formal systems in place to protect them- and yes this includes the right to food, water, shelter, a basic education, and access to healthcare. I wouldn't call using taxpayer money for a traffic light, nor for protection of basic human rights, "veiled tyranny".
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom