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Our diseased democracy

Fletch said:
Its worse than that though. If republicans are allowed to successfully block Hillary from appointing a SC justice, it wont be an 8 justice court for long. It will be 7. Then 6. And don't believe for a moment that if a republican gets in, dems in the senate will allow him to appoint any justices wither. What you will wind up with at some point is no Supreme Court. And the fact that this idea is being pushed by Mr Constitution Ted Cruz shows he learned nothing in law school.
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Oh, I would put ol Ted up against almost anybody on site in that regard. If law schools actually taught the Constitution then lawyers would know a heck of a lot more than they currently do about it.
 
haymarket said:
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I used to teach from an American history text that labeled the chapter on the 1850's as The Failure of the Politicians. And we know what followed.

It appears theat history does indeed repeat itself if only in a different disguise and costume which appears new and different only to the uninformed.

Woe is us. [/COLOR][/FONT]
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Ya a couple months back I was reading an argument that we are headed down that Hell again, the poltical system failing to find compromise or even to really try will end up in with the nation in great unnecessary pain, again, just like then.

Sounds right.

I give a Hillary administration a 5% chance of being good. Trump is higher, at around 20%, but the risks of a very bad go are higher too.
 
Brewdog said:
I'm voting Gary Johnson. I am not part of the problem.

And federal law shouldn't lock people up for one thing in one state and then let them go in another for the same crime.
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Why shouldn't they? If people in different states, for instance, think the age of consent in marriage and sex should be 16, 17 or 18, should they not be able to legislate this individually by state? Yes, they should and DO. And what about laws regarding sales of alcohol... uniform and universal across the US? No, and should not be.

Localities should get to make their own rules. The feds should stay the hell away from anything not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Why shouldn't they? If people in different states, for instance, think the age of consent in marriage and sex should be 16, 17 or 18, should they not be able to legislate this individually by state? Yes, they should and DO. And what about laws regarding sales of alcohol... uniform and universal across the US? No, and should not be.

Localities should get to make their own rules. The feds should stay the hell away from anything not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
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Because the federal courts regulate federal laws. Alabama has no say in federal laws. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals does. And when the 9th Circuit and 5th Circuit disagree, there's a disparity in how people are treated. And that's a violation of the Constitution. It doesn't have anything to do with the states. The states have state law, the US has federal laws. The states don't regulate federal laws.
 
i think it's pretty obvious that our nomination system has failed completely. the two party system itself has been failing for years. honestly, i'd prefer to see us move towards a more European style parliamentary system. short of that, ban political parties outright. we're still too tribal to handle them, and it's destroying our democracy (yeah, i know, representative republic.)

as for this debacle of an election, it's going to wind up one of two ways. either we hand the keys to the military to a 12 year old school yard bully, or we elect an unpopular and scandal laden Clinton, and the endless investigations begin. nothing gets done except for the absolute essentials. sixty percent chance she gets impeached, and it's likely to be one term. then Paul Ryan is president, and he begins his efforts to privatize medicare from the captain's seat, and probably with a friendly congress backing him. it's sad that this is the better of two horrible options.

George Washington said:
I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
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check out the part about foreign entanglements, too.

Avalon Project - Washington's Farewell Address 1796
 
god help you guys it's a sad mess

but on the bright side, things hit rock bottom before change occurs, that's what spurs change and hopefully this is rock bottom, that is my fear watching this whole mess, that it is not rock bottom

if this is the tip of the iceberg then things will further decline before change happens

things are so divided it's like people can not agree upon what is "good" what is "bad" and therein is much of the problem
 
_Sal said:
god help you guys it's a sad mess

but on the bright side, things hit rock bottom before change occurs, that's what spurs change and hopefully this is rock bottom, that is my fear watching this whole mess, that it is not rock bottom

if this is the tip of the iceberg then things will further decline before change happens

things are so divided it's like people can not agree upon what is "good" what is "bad" and therein is much of the problem
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Someone nailed it up above or maybe in another thread. The problem is that the two-party system has created rabid partisanship, which has not only blurred the lines of good and bad but has also made it mostly just a matter of us and them.
 
Brewdog said:
Because the federal courts regulate federal laws. Alabama has no say in federal laws. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals does. And when the 9th Circuit and 5th Circuit disagree, there's a disparity in how people are treated. And that's a violation of the Constitution. It doesn't have anything to do with the states. The states have state law, the US has federal laws. The states don't regulate federal laws.
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Yes.

But only in certain areas, specified/enumerated in the Constitution, do fed laws have any jurisdiction. The 14th was not at all meant to be all encompassing. The underlying idea, federalism, agreed upon of the Constitution with the States, then completely sovereign, was to LIMIT the powers and scope of the Federal government.

Certainly was not meant to have it encroach on every aspect of our lives as it currently "feels" the right to do.
 
calamity said:
Someone nailed it up above or maybe in another thread. The problem is that the two-party system has created rabid partisanship, which has not only blurred the lines of good and bad but has also made it mostly just a matter of us and them.
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well said

I feel like those who govern usually come from a privileged position, they have connections in high places and a personal agenda to fulfull the needs and desires of those others in their strata

our systems were built upon the average intelligent human being having the ability to become a country leader

that is no longer possible

you are in league or you are out of luck

how can that be any good for the average guy who just goes to work daily to make a nice life, no it is not

greed has corrupted all and greed has made it okay to be corrupt...the small guy just has to figure out how to be greedy enough (at least that's what he thinks) in reality high connections in high places is what it's all about

and the little guy will always stay little
 
calamity said:
The problem is that the two-party system has created rabid partisanship, which has not only blurred the lines of good and bad but has also made it mostly just a matter of us and them.
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I don't think it is the two party system. I think it is the consistently dishonest conservative media. Hillary is only "badly damaged goods" to the people who have consistently believed every conservative narrative. How many of them believed and still believe the vile and disgusting "stand down" lies? Do I even need to mention that over half of conservatives believed the President was born in Kenya and wanted to kill old people?

The two party system has its flaws but creating an ignorant base of conservative voters who believe every lie is not one of them.
 
_Sal said:
well said

I feel like those who govern usually come from a privileged position, they have connections in high places and a personal agenda to fulfull the needs and desires of those others in their strata

our systems were built upon the average intelligent human being having the ability to become a country leader

that is no longer possible

you are in league or you are out of luck

how can that be any good for the average guy who just goes to work daily to make a nice life, no it is not

greed has corrupted all and greed has made it okay to be corrupt...the small guy just has to figure out how to be greedy enough (at least that's what he thinks) in reality high connections in high places is what it's all about

and the little guy will always stay little
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Something happened to this country at the end of the 70's. I can't quite pin it down, but I can articulate what I saw. I'll reference a movie to do it.

Billy Jack was a film that came out in the early to mid-70's. It basically depicted a hero who was a self-reliant, hard assed, former marine who also happened to be Native American. In the film, his role is basically to represent all that is good and his fundamental action is to protect the students and teachers in a special school full of kumbaya singing young people. The villains are the townies, especially the rich oligarch. Standard stuff. The primary villain is the rich man's son, a Corvette driving man-child of privilege.

Somehow, we as a nation didn't want to become Billy Jack. Few people want to put that kind of effort into just being good. Instead most of us choose to either become the helpless, nanny needing kumbaya singers or we aim to be the rich snob with no ethics like the villainous man-child. I blame the 80's. :)
 
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Vern said:
I don't think it is the two party system. I think it is the consistently dishonest conservative media. Hillary is only "badly damaged goods" to the people who have consistently believed every conservative narrative. How many of them believed and still believe the vile and disgusting "stand down" lies? Do I even need to mention that over half of conservatives believed the President was born in Kenya and wanted to kill old people?

The two party system has its flaws but creating an ignorant base of conservative voters who believe every lie is not one of them.
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Isn't the entire goal behind lying to these lemmings to get them to vote for the Republicans?
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Oh, I would put ol Ted up against almost anybody on site in that regard. If law schools actually taught the Constitution then lawyers would know a heck of a lot more than they currently do about it.
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Ted should know that filibustering SC justices is not what the Founders intended. And he should know the damage that would do to the nation.
 
Fletch said:
Ted should know that filibustering SC justices is not what the Founders intended. And he should know the damage that would do to the nation.
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The Senate is a body one of which uses is to help check the other two branches exactly as intended by the Founders.

Now, detail the damage done.
 
calamity said:
Something happened to this country at the end of the 70's. I can't quite pin it down, but I can articulate what I saw. I'll reference a movie to do it.

Billy Jack was a film that came out in the early to mid-70's. It basically depicted a hero who was a self-reliant, hard assed, former marine who also happened to be Native American. In the film, his role is basically to represent all that is good and his fundamental action is to protect the students and teachers in a special school full of kumbaya singing young people. The villains are the townies, especially the rich oligarch. Standard stuff. The primary villain is the rich man's son, a Corvette driving man-child of privilege.

Somehow, we as a nation didn't want to become Billy Jack. Few people want to put that kind of effort into just being good. Instead most of us choose to either become the helpless, nanny needing kumbaya singers or we aim to be the rich snob with no ethics like the villainous man-child. I blame the 80's. :)
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I remember that movie, lol...theme song "One Tin Soldier", bad acting but it had a strong point and in those days we all wanted to be the hero

I think we have lost our guts and nerve to stand up for anyone or thing that doesn't get us ahead personally...it's considered "soft" yet most of the Western world profess to be Christian and helping others is Christ-like

we are a contradiction...this election reflects that in multiple ways

I just wonder where the world is headed
 
It is sadly ironic that the point of the post was how hyper-partisanship has diseased our politics and many of the responses are hyper-partisan.

The American public really lost out on this election. Unfortunately, we will get the president we deserve. The debate I would have loved to see was Kasich vs Sanders.
 
LowDown said:
That's rich. Hillary is just this poor little woman set to be victimized by the bad old Republicans. She has no responsibility at all for the situation she's in.

And no doubt Trump, if he wins, will be totally responsible for the lack of cooperation he faces from the elites in Washington, DC.

I don't think it's possible be more one sided and tendentious. I guess that half of the facts are just invisible. It must be difficult to function in the real world thinking that way.
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Thread winner! With out a doubt!
 
haymarket said:
Lyrics from Simon & Garfunkel's MRS ROBINSON

Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the candidates' debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
[FONT=Roboto, arial, Noto Sans Japanese, sans-serif]Every way you look at this you lose[/FONT]

[FONT=Roboto, arial, Noto Sans Japanese, sans-serif]I am convinced that next Tuesday, America will lose no matter if Clinton or Trump emerges [/FONT][FONT=Roboto, arial, Noto Sans Japanese, sans-serif]victorious. And it is but a symptom of a disease that has infected our democracy ...(and please spare me the argument about if we have a democracy or a republic).

If Clinton wins, she is badly damaged goods. The republicans will investigate her yet again and the House - no matter if the Dems take the Senate or not - will only double down on the gridlock they dealt out to Obama. She has precious little chance of getting anything done with them.

If Trump wins, the least qualified man in a good century becomes the leader of the free world and there is little doubt his demons will spell only disaster for the nation as even his republican allies will desert him in short order when he has no strong hand to rein his negative inclinations in. And make no mistake about it - his negative inclinations are legion and will control him.

The Supreme Court vacancy will go unfilled and the battle over it will be a national embarrassment bordering on disgrace fully illustrating the failure of our system and the extent to which hyper partisanship has damaged the body politic.

The major problems of the nation will go untended to and we will only get worse.

I used to teach from an American history text that labeled the chapter on the 1850's as The Failure of the Politicians. And we know what followed.

It appears theat history does indeed repeat itself if only in a different disguise and costume which appears new and different only to the uninformed.

Woe is us. [/FONT]
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democracy as a FROM of goverment is a disease. Was it you who said we have a republican form of goverment, now you call it a democracy:doh
 
I feel like no matter what, we will get the same corporate hand picked candidates. Trump is more of a loose cannon than your run of the mill hand picks like Rubio and Clinton. I've no doubt Hillary will win. Same ole same ole...
 
Master PO said:
democracy as a FROM of goverment is a disease. Was it you who said we have a republican form of goverment, now you call it a democracy:doh
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Go back and read the OP. You violated the entire request.

and in other news - the sun set in the west tonight :roll:
 
haymarket said:
Go back and read the OP. You violated the entire request.

and in other news - the sun set in the west tonight :roll:
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your thread is :

Our diseased democracy,

a democracy is democratic form of goverment, while you have stated many times america is a republican form of goverment
 
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People are so quick to downplay the Clintons but it's likely their connections, or at least whatever cabal they are part of, who have rigged this entire election by using Trump as a fear-based ploy to get people to vote Democrat. It's so painfully obvious that Hillary has been groomed from the start and that Trump is just a plant.

Our Democracy is diseased because the real people running the government are unelected and can't be unseated.

We desperately need to wake up from this partisan madness already. It's been too long and the infantile posturing has to end in order for us to get a grip and pull ourselves away from the puppet polity we've become.
 
Northern Light said:
People are so quick to downplay the Clintons but it's likely their connections, or at least whatever cabal they are part of, who have rigged this entire election by using Trump as a fear-based ploy to get people to vote Democrat. It's so painfully obvious that Hillary has been groomed from the start and that Trump is just a plant.
I
Our Democracy is diseased because the real people running the government are unelected and can't be unseated.

We desperately need to wake up from this partisan madness already. It's been too long and the infantile posturing has to end in order for us to get a grip and pull ourselves away from the puppet polity we've become.
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repeal the 17th and change wahington overnight
 
calamity said:
I don't know. I'm a bit more optimistic.

If Hillary loses, the DNC will purge her and all the horses she rode in on from the party. Think of it as cutting out a tumor. And, I make no bones about this. The Clintons are a freaking tumor within the DNC.

It is because of the Clinton effort that there were no exciting young Democrats running for president this time around. Clinton and her machine made sure no Obama popped out of the woodwork to foil her plans. If she loses to the Buffoon, she will have empowered all her enemies, and she will be persona non grata in the party.

On the GOP side, if Trump wins, there will be civil war in the GOP as the factions fight to maintain power. The money side--think Koch Bros and all those in the investor class---will battle the redneck deplorables, who are really quite socialist, albeit with a racist bent, pro guns and the flag waving. The people getting rich on globalization will be at war with the people who expect $30 an hour low skilled jobs to return. It will be great.

If Clinton wins...status quo. Trump goes back to reality TV and the Clintons go back to pillaging from the Oval Orifice.
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And if republicans lose the senate and house as well as the presidential election
 
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