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Obama is still apologizing for the United States

AlbqOwl said:
This thread is not about what other people think of President Obama. This thread is whether you agree with Obama/Clinton or with Trump or with neither re apecific questions asked in the OP.
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I agree with most of what he said...I just don't know if Laos was the right place to say it. But then...why wouldn't it be?

I don't think it was an apology in as much as it was a laundry list of problems that still need to be addressed.
 
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Moot said:
I agree with most of what he said...I just don't know if Laos was the right place to say it. But then...why wouldn't it be?

I don't think it was an apology in as much as it was a laundry list of problems that still need to be addressed.
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Here's one reason, the President said some of the words we can read in other places
U.S. bombs dropped decades ago in Laos still killing locals

XIENG KHOUANG PROVINCE, Laos -- A U.S. secret operation in Laos that ended 43 years ago is still creating fresh wounds.

Eight-year-old Brong Yang has shrapnel in his side. In July, he made the mistake of playing with what he thought was a ball. Instead, it exploded.

“There was blood everywhere,” his father said. “I didn’t know what had happened, but when I felt metal under my son’s shirt, I knew it was a bomb.”

That bomb was dropped more than four decades ago by the United States military. During the Vietnam War, the U.S. carpet-bombed neighboring Laos, in part to cut off North Vietnamese supply routes. That covert operation is called the Secret War.

Laos is the most heavily bombed country in the world per capita. (. . .) 80 million bombs did not explode during the war, and they remain a constant threat.
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What do you think? Should America apologize for killing and injuring people who weren't even born when the bombs were dropped?
 
FieldTheorist said:
He's not trashing the US, he's apologizing for our country's abhorrent behavior towards certain countries. There's frankly a lot more than the US has to apologize for, and that includes basically the entire South American continent, particularly Nicaragua.
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The US had a part in Central America, but you can also look across the ocean to the east and see many other countries who had a hand in the mess.
 
AlbqOwl said:
From where I sit, President Obama is keeping his approval ratings higher than usual by not being seen or heard by the American people. At least he is pretty well off the radar most of the time. When he does speak publicly it has often been to denounce Donald Trump's "Make American Great Again" theme because, according to Obama, America is already great. But elsewhere he continues to apologize for and/or trash America and the American people.

Some of his statements on his trip to Asia last week:

[FONT=&quot]Here are 18 separate attacks he unloaded while in China and Laos: [/FONT]


  1. [*=left]There are still too many poor children in the United States
    [*=left]Too many children in America are not getting enough to eat
    [*=left]Despite America's wealth, we’re not providing sufficient educational resources in poor communities
    [*=left]America lacks the “political will” to help poor inner cities that have suffered discrimination.
    [*=left]Americans are “lazy” in thinking we don’t need to learn about foreign nations.
    [*=left]Colin Kapernack is justified protesting the National Anthem, as the NFL star is raising “real, legitimate issues” about things America needs to be talked about.
    [*=left]America suffers from racism, conflicts between ethnic groups, and discrimination against immigrants.
    [*=left]Criticisms of America being imperfect and having problems with racism discrimination are accurate.
    [*=left]America still has “situations where women are not treated equally.”
    [*=left]America “didn't think through” our policy in Vietnam War, as dropping cluster bombs proved counterproductive to "winning hearts and minds."
    [*=left]America’s treatment of Native Americans was “tragic.”
    [*=left]America “struggled to stay true” to our founding ideal that all men are created equal.
    [*=left]When the environment is destroyed in America, it’s because the private sector is being “lazy."
    [*=left]The United States is still to this day learning how to develop industry without destroying the environment.
    [*=left]Due to industrialization, America “used to have terrible pollution … everywhere.”
    [*=left]America’s role in the Vietnam war led to mass displacement of people from their homes.
    [*=left]America dropped more bombs on Laos than on Germany and Japan during World War II … more than 2 million bombs … “the bombs fell like rain.” More bombs, he said on several occasions, were dropped on Laos per capita than anywhere else in the world.
    [*=left]We bombed the “simple homes” of civilians in Laos. “Villages and entire allies were obliterated.” The ancient Plain of Jars “was devastated.” Countless civilians were killed.


Question:

Do you agree with President Obama and Hillary that America is already great and we don't need to make it great again even as they continue to trash the country and/or people they disagree with?

Or do you agree with Donald Trump that the American people are great but current policies have weakened the economy, eroded respect, increased risk, and approve of his vision to "Make America Great Again"?

​
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America is already great. It has never stopped being great. The idea that we need to "make America great again" is beyond stupid.

That being said;

I do think valid points were brought up. As a nation of men, America isn't perfect. This isn't news. Yes, there's discrimination, pollution, what have you--- but that seems to be a natural part of the world.

Yes, the Indian/Native Americans Wars were tragic, but they were the result of intolerance on both sides, and that kind of fighting was only going to end one way. It's tragic, but there were extenuating circumstances, so to speak.

A number of the other statements are true.

The bombing in Laos was a result of the VC/NVA presence there. If they have complaints they should take it up with Vietnam.
 
Somerville said:
Here's one reason, the President said some of the words we can read in other places


What do you think? Should America apologize for killing and injuring people who weren't even born when the bombs were dropped?
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I think the Vietnamese should apologize for violating Laos' territorial integrity and causing those bombs to be dropped, but I suppose that's probably not going to happen.
 
War is hell.

I'm still waiting for an apology from the British and Santa Anna.

'Nuff said?

Hopefully, going forth, we have learned some lessons from the past. But you can't get the toothpaste back in to the tube.

Hollow words are hollow.
 
Tigerace117 said:
I think the Vietnamese should apologize for violating Laos' territorial integrity and causing those bombs to be dropped, but I suppose that's probably not going to happen.
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Double-like.
 
Captain America said:
Double-like.
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It's a sign of strength in a country that we are willing to admit when we are wrong. Many countries can't do that; case in point, Turkey.

However, it's important to acknowledge the circumstances of an event. In this case, although we dropped the bombs, had the Vietnamese not been in Laos they would have been able to continue to live unmolested. Therefore, I don't see why the US should apologize.
 
Tigerace117 said:
It's a sign of strength in a country that we are willing to admit when we are wrong. Many countries can't do that; case in point, Turkey.

However, it's important to acknowledge the circumstances of an event. In this case, although we dropped the bombs, had the Vietnamese not been in Laos they would have been able to continue to live unmolested. Therefore, I don't see why the US should apologize.
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Just like when terrorists hide in hospitals and schoolyards. No quarter. Who's fault is it really?

Not ours. I ain't apologizing for **** except to say this does really suck.

But I do hope our country is more responsible with our ordinances going forth.
 
Somerville said:
The assumptions made in this post are simply not rational.

If the President wasn't "out there", how would the right wing media have any targets for their attacks on a man trying to do his job?

The most absurd point is "America is already great and we don't need to make it great again". Being "great" does not and should not have anything to do with continuing attempts to improve life for all Americans; in other words, making America greater.

The economy is not weak.

America is respected, hell, it is feared in much of the world

How has the risk increased? What risk are you talking about?

America is great, it can be greater and none of Donald Trump's proposals would do anything toward that goal.
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There was nothing unrational about the questions answered. So I'll take it that you go with the Obama/Hillary position that everything is just great except that America sucks presumably because of Americans.
 
Somerville said:
the thread title: Obama is still apologizing for the United States Therefore, it seems relevant to speak of my personal experiences with people living in other nations who don't see the President as "apologizing"
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What do they think he is doing if not apologizing?
 
Moot said:
I agree with most of what he said...I just don't know if Laos was the right place to say it. But then...why wouldn't it be?

I don't think it was an apology in as much as it was a laundry list of problems that still need to be addressed.
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So to recite America's 'problems' in foreign countries is not an apology? Okay. I guess you and I define apology differently. Can we say you agree with Obama/Hillary that America is doing just fine but Americans suck?
 
Tigerace117 said:
America is already great. It has never stopped being great. The idea that we need to "make America great again" is beyond stupid.

That being said;

I do think valid points were brought up. As a nation of men, America isn't perfect. This isn't news. Yes, there's discrimination, pollution, what have you--- but that seems to be a natural part of the world.

Yes, the Indian/Native Americans Wars were tragic, but they were the result of intolerance on both sides, and that kind of fighting was only going to end one way. It's tragic, but there were extenuating circumstances, so to speak.

A number of the other statements are true.

The bombing in Laos was a result of the VC/NVA presence there. If they have complaints they should take it up with Vietnam.
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So you agree with Obama/Hillary that America is great but Americans suck?
 
AlbqOwl said:
So to recite America's 'problems' in foreign countries is not an apology? Okay. I guess you and I define apology differently. Can we say you agree with Obama/Hillary that America is doing just fine but Americans suck?
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When did America stop being great? Apparently, Trump doesn't think America is so great, either...and he's made it the centerpiece of his campaign. Perhaps if Obama praised Putin and leaked high security briefings to insult the US military on national TV, maybe you would like him better, eh?
 
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Tigerace117 said:
Well, I certainly don't agree with the statement that America sucks, so.....
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But even Huffpo today was getting on Hillary's case for her characterization of Trump supporters--these are all Americans but according to her she might as well have said they all suck. She must have missed a chapter or two in how to win friends and influence people.

And when Obama again and again and again apologizes--or if you prefer laments though the definitions are hardly different--the many sins of America but has little good to say for it other than he insists that the things Trump and his supporters say are bad are in fact really good, what are we to think that he thinks about us Americans?
 
TheGoverness said:
He's critzized daily for literally anything that he does. Even with that Nobel Peace prize he still got critcized.

So no, he doesn't get a pass.
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You can always find someone to criticize a president for anything they do. But overall, as presidents go, Obama had at least the first year in office as a general free pass (relative to the scrutiny a president usually gets), and the Peace Prize is one of the better examples of it, I mean, what did he do to earn it?

To be fair, GWB had a free pass for a while after 9/11.
 
AlbqOwl said:
But re the questions in the OP, do you agree with Obama/Hillary that America is great despite their trashing of America and/or Americans? Or do you agree with Trump that America has declined and can be great again?
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I think that the country as a whole is still the best country in the world. However, I think that our society has declined a lot in the past ten years.

That being said, the leader (and I use that term loosely) shouldn't be going around trashing us. There's a big difference between pride in one's country, and radical nationalism. Obama has neither.
 
Velvet Elvis said:
I think that the country as a whole is still the best country in the world. However, I think that our society has declined a lot in the past ten years.

That being said, the leader (and I use that term loosely) shouldn't be going around trashing us. There's a big difference between pride in one's country, and radical nationalism. Obama has neither.
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You think American society has "declined a lot". Please provide the readers with some support for such a claim.

Here's a few examples that say otherwise

Violent-Crime-Rate-Chart1.png

dif02-e_ckk5pozvdid6gw.jpg

Unemployment-Rates-Drops-to-Lowest-Percentages-Since-Summer-2008-10212014-LG.jpg Unemployment rate is now below 4.9%

Are things perfect in America? Of course not but the GOP has done ZIP to improve the economy since Barack Obama took office in 2009. "Screw the working class and minorities, it's more important to create hatred for that black guy"
 
AlbqOwl said:
But even Huffpo today was getting on Hillary's case for her characterization of Trump supporters--these are all Americans but according to her she might as well have said they all suck. She must have missed a chapter or two in how to win friends and influence people.

And when Obama again and again and again apologizes--or if you prefer laments though the definitions are hardly different--the many sins of America but has little good to say for it other than he insists that the things Trump and his supporters say are bad are in fact really good, what are we to think that he thinks about us Americans?
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She did not say all Trump supporters suck - only half of them.
 
Velvet Elvis said:
I think that the country as a whole is still the best country in the world. However, I think that our society has declined a lot in the past ten years.

That being said, the leader (and I use that term loosely) shouldn't be going around trashing us. There's a big difference between pride in one's country, and radical nationalism. Obama has neither.
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I agree. The American concept is still just as valid as it ever was, and we still have a lot of Americans who love the idea and would like to make it work. I have never felt that President Obama either appreciated America or had any clue about why there is one. Like most modern day American liberals he thinks other countries are somehow 'better' in some vague sense than we are, and we should be taking our cues from them. And I think that is why he finds it so much more comfortable to recite our sins than he feels comfortable reciting our virtues. Could he be so clueless to see how so much has gotten worse and so little is better under his administration? Or does he know but thinks we're too dumb to figure it out?

Yes, America has declined socially, culturally, economically, and militarily under Obama and will almost certainly continue to do so under Hillary Clinton. Do I think Trump can make America great again? I don't think anybody could undo all the damage that has been done in eight years, let alone four years, but since we don't have anybody but a desperate gamble to put up against a Hillary Clinton, I sure would prefer to give him a chance to try.
 
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