Obama is still apologizing for the United States

Absentglare · Sep 12, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
I put Hillary in it in the OP so she is fair game for this discussion. Obama AND Hillary are the ones insisting that America is just fine and doesn't need to made anything, let along great again. Their schtick is that Trump wants to go backwards to where it was before they made it so much greater.

The question is not loaded if you see Obama as putting us down everywhere he goes. And that is the OP. So the answer to the first question for someone like you, instead of objecting to or rewriting the question or the thesis of the OP could be, "yes, America is already great as it is and Obama wasn't trashing the country." Of course if you give that answer there will be follow up questions.

He isn't putting America down. That's your question loading.

President Obama and Hillary agree that America is great. Trump disagrees.

Now why do you hate our country ??

What will it take for you to understand that loaded questions of that format are not valid ?

AlbqOwl · Sep 12, 2016

Absentglare said:
He isn't putting America down. That's your question loading.

President Obama and Hillary agree that America is great. Trump disagrees.

Now why do you hate our country ??

What will it take for you to understand that loaded questions of that format are not valid ?

I am so sorry--that is not an apology by the way--that I misstook you for offering a serious discussion. But it is silly season so this is to be expected I suppose. Have a pleasant evening.

Absentglare · Sep 12, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
I am so sorry--that is not an apology by the way--that I misstook you for offering a serious discussion. But it is silly season so this is to be expected I suppose. Have a pleasant evening.

You are correct that the tactic i applied is inappropriate, it is a logical fallacy. Apparently, you are too dishonest to acknowledge that your OP employed this very fallacy.

prometeus · Sep 12, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
And this one we will assign to the non sequitur group who has no clue what the OP is about. But do have a nice day.

I am having one thank you and you do as well. That however does not change the reality of what I said earlier. Truth and facts do bite and since you are running away with your deflection it is clear that they you are having some discomfort.

joG · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
So what is the more complex underlying reality? Donald Trump doesn't focus on past things that we have now corrected. But he says that America was once great--the very best in healthcare, education, jobs, family income, infrastructure, manufacturing, etc. And we no longer are. And we could be again. We can still help out around the world as the world's last super power but we should not allow other nation's to use us and they have to pay their fair share for our help. I happen to agree with him about that. So yeah, I am one voter who must be one of those 'populists' you mention?

Is Obama or Hillary saying anything like that?

Oh, but yes. The US is a great power and country. It is no longer the unique rich man in the debree of a world destroyed by ww2. We have worked hard to make the world better. Don't complain that we have been relatively successful.
As I said, the situation is complex. Relative wealth is shifting and will continue to. With is so will relative power. That is changing the structure of international security and the probability of a nuclear war originating somewhere out there, possibly between actors the US has little involvement with.
The country wants to have cheap things to buy but high pay jobs. Produce in the US and the things will be more expensive and or the jobs will be cheaper.
The US is the largest manufacturer after China.
The US has the best average income of any comparable country. If you look at the distribution, you will find that the PPP after transfers and non monetary is also at least as high or better
The supply of health care paid by the public is as high per capita of beneficiaries or higher than in the social democracies of Europe and the private sector has far superior medicine than in Europe out side of a few institutes, where you will find that most of the doctors were trained in the US.
Education is a private good that is being supplied by the public. Where it is private the US is ahead. Just look at the rankings.
Infrastructure should not be public in most cases and only regulated. People have been complaining that it was going to hell, since I was a kid.

None of this means that the US should not be doing everything that it can to improve its regulatory framework, and strengthen the educational and research bases. But I have not really seen a plan by Trump that promises to these things. Just talk. And as far as international security and foreign policy he has not even indicated that he know where the questions might be.

tres borrachos · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
Would it be appropriate for the German Chancellor to acknowledge the bad treatment of the Jews under the Third Reich as if all Germans still think like that when giving a state address in the USA? A conversation discussing history is one thing. A state address quite another. That is a very different thing than apologizing for bad service or an overcooked steak that you had nothing to do with and was never the intention or policy of the company you represent.

Yes, it would absolutely be appropriate for the German Chancellor to acknowledge what happened under Hitler while giving a state address in the United States. It's an undeniable fact of their history and it's something that presumably they learned from and will never allow to happen again.

Who said anything about overcooked steaks, and what do they have to do with this?

AlbqOwl · Sep 13, 2016

joG said:
Oh, but yes. The US is a great power and country. It is no longer the unique rich man in the debree of a world destroyed by ww2. We have worked hard to make the world better. Don't complain that we have been relatively successful.
As I said, the situation is complex. Relative wealth is shifting and will continue to. With is so will relative power. That is changing the structure of international security and the probability of a nuclear war originating somewhere out there, possibly between actors the US has little involvement with.
The country wants to have cheap things to buy but high pay jobs. Produce in the US and the things will be more expensive and or the jobs will be cheaper.
The US is the largest manufacturer after China.
The US has the best average income of any comparable country. If you look at the distribution, you will find that the PPP after transfers and non monetary is also at least as high or better
The supply of health care paid by the public is as high per capita of beneficiaries or higher than in the social democracies of Europe and the private sector has far superior medicine than in Europe out side of a few institutes, where you will find that most of the doctors were trained in the US.
Education is a private good that is being supplied by the public. Where it is private the US is ahead. Just look at the rankings.
Infrastructure should not be public in most cases and only regulated. People have been complaining that it was going to hell, since I was a kid.

None of this means that the US should not be doing everything that it can to improve its regulatory framework, and strengthen the educational and research bases. But I have not really seen a plan by Trump that promises to these things. Just talk. And as far as international security and foreign policy he has not even indicated that he know where the questions might be.

I can agree with much you are saying here, but the but in the past 10 years we have seen the USA go from first to fourth in the world in manufacturing value added per capita and there are other countries rapidly gaining on us. We are no longer the top auto manufacturer and we produce precious little clothing and virtually no electronics (TVs etc) any more. It is a real scavenger hunt trying to find much of anything made in the USA any more. Current government policies are doing nothing to slow or reverse that trend. When we have swelling trade deficits, a full quarter of our adult work force not working, and family income steadily declining, we can no longer bury our collective heads in the sand and pretend that it's just the way the world works.

And I hate looking at the charts year after year and see the USA waaaaaaay down on the list of best education systems, best healthcare systems, etc.

I love this country. I love Americans of all colors, stripes, and flavors. And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But its like watching your home deteriorate year after year because proper attention, repairs, and maintenance is not done. If you don't keep up your house, it loses in value and eventually will fall down around you. I see what is happening in the United States as something like that.

Somerville · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
I can agree with much you are saying here, but the but in the past 10 years we have seen the USA go from first to fourth in the world in manufacturing value added per capita and there are other countries rapidly gaining on us. We are no longer the top auto manufacturer and we produce precious little clothing and virtually no electronics (TVs etc) any more. It is a real scavenger hunt trying to find much of anything made in the USA any more. Current government policies are doing nothing to slow or reverse that trend. When we have swelling trade deficits, a full quarter of our adult work force not working, and family income steadily declining, we can no longer bury our collective heads in the sand and pretend that it's just the way the world works.

And I hate looking at the charts year after year and see the USA waaaaaaay down on the list of best education systems, best healthcare systems, etc.

I love this country. I love Americans of all colors, stripes, and flavors. And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But its like watching your home deteriorate year after year because proper attention, repairs, and maintenance is not done. If you don't keep up your house, it loses in value and eventually will fall down around you. I see what is happening in the United States as something like that.

Free market capitalism for ya.

It seems a bit odd that a time when the top personal income tax rate hit 92%, when more than a third of workers were union members, a period when corporate taxes were more than 4% of the GDP - today they are less than 2%, days when corporate taxes were nearly one third of federal revenues - today slightly less than a tenth; odd it is that the nation saw the highest rate of economic expansion during a time of such onerous federal regulations. We all know that cutting corporate and high-income personal taxes will do more for the economy. We all know that allowing corporations to move operations overseas or for retail chains to buy the cheapest crap available is much better for the economy. Fewer regulations always work so well for Americans [/sarcasm]

The nations which are beating the US in education all have central government controlled educational systems.

Every developed nation with the exception of the US has single-payer healthcare

Federal and state expenditures on infrastructure maintenance has been cut, even as the systems age.

Corporations control the legislatures, both federal and state; their immediate profits are seen as far more important than planning for the future. Most notable recently is the news of Wells-Fargo being fined $185 million dollars for years of employees creating fake accounts using real customers information; at the same time the executive who was supposedly in charge of the department responsible for overseeing employee activities is retiring with $125 million bonus. So very nice that one may be either totally incompetent or felonious and still receive such a nice payoff. The federal agency which discovered the bank's fraudulent activities, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, has been attacked since Day One as yet another example of government overreach.

AlbqOwl · Sep 13, 2016

Somerville said:
Free market capitalism for ya.

It seems a bit odd that a time when the top personal income tax rate hit 92%, when more than a third of workers were union members, a period when corporate taxes were more than 4% of the GDP - today they are less than 2%, days when corporate taxes were nearly one third of federal revenues - today slightly less than a tenth; odd it is that the nation saw the highest rate of economic expansion during a time of such onerous federal regulations. We all know that cutting corporate and high-income personal taxes will do more for the economy. We all know that allowing corporations to move operations overseas or for retail chains to buy the cheapest crap available is much better for the economy. Fewer regulations always work so well for Americans [/sarcasm]

The nations which are beating the US in education all have central government controlled educational systems.

Every developed nation with the exception of the US has single-payer healthcare

Federal and state expenditures on infrastructure maintenance has been cut, even as the systems age.

Corporations control the legislatures, both federal and state; their immediate profits are seen as far more important than planning for the future. Most notable recently is the news of Wells-Fargo being fined $185 million dollars for years of employees creating fake accounts using real customers information; at the same time the executive who was supposedly in charge of the department responsible for overseeing employee activities is retiring with $125 million bonus. So very nice that one may be either totally incompetent or felonious and still receive such a nice payoff. The federal agency which discovered the bank's fraudulent activities, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, has been attacked since Day One as yet another example of government overreach.

And we beat everybody in education when the schools were controlled by local school boards, parents, and teachers.
And we beat everybody in health care in EVERY category when healthcare was entirely privatized.
And we beat everybody in economic growth and stability when government stayed out of the process as much as possible.
And there was a time that "Made in America" was a mark of excellence and there was a lot more of that for sale than stuff made anywhere else.

In most categories, you cannot compare the United States with 50 sovereign states and 330 million people with about as much diversity as you will find in any country with tiny countries with homogenous populations that are not as much or little more than a single U.S. state.

joG · Sep 13, 2016

Somerville said:
Free market capitalism for ya.

It seems a bit odd that a time when the top personal income tax rate hit 92%, when more than a third of workers were union members, a period when corporate taxes were more than 4% of the GDP - today they are less than 2%, days when corporate taxes were nearly one third of federal revenues - today slightly less than a tenth; odd it is that the nation saw the highest rate of economic expansion during a time of such onerous federal regulations. We all know that cutting corporate and high-income personal taxes will do more for the economy. We all know that allowing corporations to move operations overseas or for retail chains to buy the cheapest crap available is much better for the economy. Fewer regulations always work so well for Americans [/sarcasm]

The nations which are beating the US in education all have central government controlled educational systems.

Every developed nation with the exception of the US has single-payer healthcare

Federal and state expenditures on infrastructure maintenance has been cut, even as the systems age.

Corporations control the legislatures, both federal and state; their immediate profits are seen as far more important than planning for the future. Most notable recently is the news of Wells-Fargo being fined $185 million dollars for years of employees creating fake accounts using real customers information; at the same time the executive who was supposedly in charge of the department responsible for overseeing employee activities is retiring with $125 million bonus. So very nice that one may be either totally incompetent or felonious and still receive such a nice payoff. The federal agency which discovered the bank's fraudulent activities, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, has been attacked since Day One as yet another example of government overreach.

I thought I would just point out your health care comment to show that you might want to revisit your conclusions and opinions. The US is not the only developed nation without single-payer healthcare.

joG · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
I can agree with much you are saying here, but the but in the past 10 years we have seen the USA go from first to fourth in the world in manufacturing value added per capita and there are other countries rapidly gaining on us. We are no longer the top auto manufacturer and we produce precious little clothing and virtually no electronics (TVs etc) any more. It is a real scavenger hunt trying to find much of anything made in the USA any more. Current government policies are doing nothing to slow or reverse that trend. When we have swelling trade deficits, a full quarter of our adult work force not working, and family income steadily declining, we can no longer bury our collective heads in the sand and pretend that it's just the way the world works.

And I hate looking at the charts year after year and see the USA waaaaaaay down on the list of best education systems, best healthcare systems, etc.

I love this country. I love Americans of all colors, stripes, and flavors. And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But its like watching your home deteriorate year after year because proper attention, repairs, and maintenance is not done. If you don't keep up your house, it loses in value and eventually will fall down around you. I see what is happening in the United States as something like that.

I agree on a number of the points you make and also that we have not organised ourselves as well as we could have and should have. This is true for the policy areas you mention and a number of others as well. We took a number of wrong turns, often as a result of good intentions or populist promises that sounded good to voters that thought relying on government social programs, pretending healthcare could be irrationally organised, Social Security is sensible and that education should be inclusive, easy and free. We acted as though foreign countries would not manipulate currencies, bribe for business when competing with US companies.
We have not organised international security at all well.

The thing is that we need people that have the character, knowledge and experience to make substantial corrections instead of partisan moves or populist vote ploys.

Absentglare · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
And we beat everybody in education when the schools were controlled by local school boards, parents, and teachers.
And we beat everybody in health care in EVERY category when healthcare was entirely privatized.
And we beat everybody in economic growth and stability when government stayed out of the process as much as possible.
And there was a time that "Made in America" was a mark of excellence and there was a lot more of that for sale than stuff made anywhere else.

In most categories, you cannot compare the United States with 50 sovereign states and 330 million people with about as much diversity as you will find in any country with tiny countries with homogenous populations that are not as much or little more than a single U.S. state.

The exact inverse is true, we beat everybody when we had a relative advantage in public services.

You're confusing relative to ourselves with relative to the international community.

AlbqOwl · Sep 13, 2016

joG said:
I agree on a number of the points you make and also that we have not organised ourselves as well as we could have and should have. This is true for the policy areas you mention and a number of others as well. We took a number of wrong turns, often as a result of good intentions or populist promises that sounded good to voters that thought relying on government social programs, pretending healthcare could be irrationally organised, Social Security is sensible and that education should be inclusive, easy and free. We acted as though foreign countries would not manipulate currencies, bribe for business when competing with US companies.
We have not organised international security at all well.

The thing is that we need people that have the character, knowledge and experience to make substantial corrections instead of partisan moves or populist vote ploys.

We are definitely on the same page there.

Visbek · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
[*=left]There are still too many poor children in the United States...etc

And which of those statements are factually inaccurate?

Do you not believe that racism and sexism are still problematic in the US?

Do you claim that slavery was consistent with the values of the United States as being founded to treat everyone as equal under the law, and defending their liberties?

Do you deny the fact that the US did, in fact, drop more bombs on Laos alone than we did during WWII? That 40 years later, UXO from our bombs are still maiming innocent civilians in Laos?

Is it such a terrible thing to admit that we bombed the living daylights out of a small and poor nation halfway across the globe during the Vietnam War?

Why are conservatives the only ones allowed to talk smack about the United States and its people?

Question:

Do you agree with President Obama and Hillary that America is already great and we don't need to make it great again even as they continue to trash the country and/or people they disagree with?

sigh

In case you missed it, Obama made that statement largely in reaction to the Republicans had spent about a week trashing the US and its future path, in public, for the entire world to hear. (Pro tip? When you speak on national television, WE CAN HEAR YOU.)

Anyway. During that speech, Obama explicitly stated that we have many challenges:

"I’m here to tell you that, yes, we’ve still got more work to do. More work to do for every American still in need of a good job or a raise, paid leave or a decent retirement; for every child who needs a sturdier ladder out of poverty or a world-class education; for everyone who has not yet felt the progress of these past seven and a half years...."

What Obama thinks is great is our system of democracy, our founding principles, and our people:

"America is already great. America is already strong. And I promise you, our strength, our greatness, does not depend on Donald Trump. In fact, it doesn’t depend on any one person. And that, in the end, may be the biggest difference in this election -- the meaning of our democracy.

"Ronald Reagan called America “a shining city on a hill.” Donald Trump calls it “a divided crime scene” that only he can fix. It doesn’t matter to him that illegal immigration and the crime rate are as low as they’ve been in decades -- because he’s not actually offering any real solutions to those issues. He’s just offering slogans, and he’s offering fear. He’s betting that if he scares enough people, he might score just enough votes to win this election.

"And that's another bet that Donald Trump will lose. And the reason he'll lose it is because he’s selling the American people short. We're not a fragile people. We're not a frightful people. Our power doesn’t come from some self-declared savior promising that he alone can restore order as long as we do things his way. We don’t look to be ruled. Our power comes from those immortal declarations first put to paper right here in Philadelphia all those years ago: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that We the People, can form a more perfect union."

Or do you agree with Donald Trump that the American people are great but current policies have weakened the economy, eroded respect, increased risk, and approve of his vision to "Make America Great Again"?

Trump has spent over a year talking s*** about this nation of ours, in total (if not deliberate) ignorance of the facts, dragging the level of discourse down to the gutter, sucking up to foreign dictators, insulting veterans and women and minorities and our allies every step of the way, while providing almost no concrete policies.

I could describe the vision of the narcissistic demagogue as a pack of lies, but that might not be possible, as his "vision" changes every time he turns around. So, I'm not actually sure what you are proposing we agree with....

Visbek · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
And we beat everybody in education when the schools were controlled by local school boards, parents, and teachers.

When? And according to whom?

And we beat everybody in health care in EVERY category when healthcare was entirely privatized.

When was this?

You seem awfully confident in these claims, surely you have the evidence ready to hand.

And we beat everybody in economic growth and stability when government stayed out of the process as much as possible.

When was that, 1750?

Oh, I know what you're talking about -- the 1950s and early 1960s, when almost all of our major industrial competitors had been utterly smashed by the war (whereas the US was completely untouched), and had no capacity whatsoever. China also did not have its act in gear, as it was a largely agrarian society that was rapidly industrializing, and also strangled by its Communist leaders.

E.g. after WWII, the Big Three in Detroit got lazy, and had no real competition. Rather than focus on innovation and quality, they kept cranking out heavy and mediocre cars, whose quality declined year after year. The industry resisted innovations like rear wheel drive; the Mustang almost didn't get built because of corporate inertia at Ford. Once Germany and Japan rebuilt their industrial capacity and figured out how to make decent cars, Detroit very quickly lost ground. What did they do? Demand protectionist measures from Washington. (So much for non-interference making America great....) Fortunately, because of *cough* foreign competition, they finally got their act in gear and now make good-quality cars, and take risks like switching the F150 from steel to aluminum.

I.e. It wasn't laissez-faire that made America an industrial giant. It was the lack of competition. Which was temporary, and cannot be wished (or legislated) away. Even if we rolled back every single regulation on manufacturing.

And there was a time that "Made in America" was a mark of excellence and there was a lot more of that for sale than stuff made anywhere else.

Uh, hello? It still does.

In case you missed it, manufacturing output is at record highs. We just don't need a lot of workers to make a lot of stuff.

So. What are you hoping for again...?

AlbqOwl · Sep 13, 2016

Visbek said:
And which of those statements are factually inaccurate?

Do you not believe that racism and sexism are still problematic in the US?

Do you claim that slavery was consistent with the values of the United States as being founded to treat everyone as equal under the law, and defending their liberties?

Do you deny the fact that the US did, in fact, drop more bombs on Laos alone than we did during WWII? That 40 years later, UXO from our bombs are still maiming innocent civilians in Laos?

Is it such a terrible thing to admit that we bombed the living daylights out of a small and poor nation halfway across the globe during the Vietnam War?

Why are conservatives the only ones allowed to talk smack about the United States and its people?

sigh

In case you missed it, Obama made that statement largely in reaction to the Republicans had spent about a week trashing the US and its future path, in public, for the entire world to hear. (Pro tip? When you speak on national television, WE CAN HEAR YOU.)

Anyway. During that speech, Obama explicitly stated that we have many challenges:

"I’m here to tell you that, yes, we’ve still got more work to do. More work to do for every American still in need of a good job or a raise, paid leave or a decent retirement; for every child who needs a sturdier ladder out of poverty or a world-class education; for everyone who has not yet felt the progress of these past seven and a half years...."

What Obama thinks is great is our system of democracy, our founding principles, and our people:

"America is already great. America is already strong. And I promise you, our strength, our greatness, does not depend on Donald Trump. In fact, it doesn’t depend on any one person. And that, in the end, may be the biggest difference in this election -- the meaning of our democracy.

"Ronald Reagan called America “a shining city on a hill.” Donald Trump calls it “a divided crime scene” that only he can fix. It doesn’t matter to him that illegal immigration and the crime rate are as low as they’ve been in decades -- because he’s not actually offering any real solutions to those issues. He’s just offering slogans, and he’s offering fear. He’s betting that if he scares enough people, he might score just enough votes to win this election.

"And that's another bet that Donald Trump will lose. And the reason he'll lose it is because he’s selling the American people short. We're not a fragile people. We're not a frightful people. Our power doesn’t come from some self-declared savior promising that he alone can restore order as long as we do things his way. We don’t look to be ruled. Our power comes from those immortal declarations first put to paper right here in Philadelphia all those years ago: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that We the People, can form a more perfect union."

Trump has spent over a year talking s*** about this nation of ours, in total (if not deliberate) ignorance of the facts, dragging the level of discourse down to the gutter, sucking up to foreign dictators, insulting veterans and women and minorities and our allies every step of the way, while providing almost no concrete policies.

I could describe the vision of the narcissistic demagogue as a pack of lies, but that might not be possible, as his "vision" changes every time he turns around. So, I'm not actually sure what you are proposing we agree with....

Well since I haven't heard Trump talking **** about this country but only how the government has misused us and let us down, I can't agree with much of your premiss here. And even when Obama's statements are factually correct, I resent the implication that he gives others that we still live our less admirable history and therefore you guys are better than us. Other world leaders don't go around, hat in hand in remorse for their country's less admirable histories when such things have been put behind them. Rather they are more likely to recite their country's virtues--the way it is now--instead of then.

AlbqOwl · Sep 13, 2016

Visbek said:
When? And according to whom?

When was this?

You seem awfully confident in these claims, surely you have the evidence ready to hand.

When was that, 1750?

Oh, I know what you're talking about -- the 1950s and early 1960s, when almost all of our major industrial competitors had been utterly smashed by the war (whereas the US was completely untouched), and had no capacity whatsoever. China also did not have its act in gear, as it was a largely agrarian society that was rapidly industrializing, and also strangled by its Communist leaders.

E.g. after WWII, the Big Three in Detroit got lazy, and had no real competition. Rather than focus on innovation and quality, they kept cranking out heavy and mediocre cars, whose quality declined year after year. The industry resisted innovations like rear wheel drive; the Mustang almost didn't get built because of corporate inertia at Ford. Once Germany and Japan rebuilt their industrial capacity and figured out how to make decent cars, Detroit very quickly lost ground. What did they do? Demand protectionist measures from Washington. (So much for non-interference making America great....) Fortunately, because of *cough* foreign competition, they finally got their act in gear and now make good-quality cars, and take risks like switching the F150 from steel to aluminum.

I.e. It wasn't laissez-faire that made America an industrial giant. It was the lack of competition. Which was temporary, and cannot be wished (or legislated) away. Even if we rolled back every single regulation on manufacturing.

Uh, hello? It still does.

In case you missed it, manufacturing output is at record highs. We just don't need a lot of workers to make a lot of stuff.

So. What are you hoping for again...?

Sigh. Already responded to in other posts. Try to keep up, okay?

Visbek · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
Well since I haven't heard Trump talking **** about this country but only how the government has misused us and let us down....

As in, you haven't heard a single speech he's given in the past year? How curious.

And even when Obama's statements are factually correct, I resent the implication that he gives others that we still live our less admirable history and therefore you guys are better than us.

Who are "you guys?" Who is he saying is "better than us?" Who are "us"?

Other world leaders don't go around, hat in hand in remorse for their country's less admirable histories when such things have been put behind them.

lol.... Wrong, world leaders spend lots of time apologizing.

Blair for Iraq: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...d-threat-from-iraq-chilcot-report-war-inquiry

Chirac for the fate of Jews during WWII: Chirac Affirms France's Guilt In Fate of Jews - NYTimes.com

Hollande acknowledges suffering of Algerians: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/20/francois-hollande-algerian-suffering-french

Japan's leaders have apologized for WWII since it ended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Meanwhile, back in the real world: Most of his remarks on arriving in Laos were in fact more about improving relations with Asian nations. E.g. complimenting Laotian culture, improving cooperation for the advancement of human rights and stronger economic ties, improving education, fostering trade, assuring them that the interest in Asia is real, encouraging the transition to democracy in Myanmar/Burma, the list goes on. I.e. you basically skipped the vast majority of what he actually said, in order to make it sound like he spent all day trashing the US. Impressive. :roll:

And again: The damage the US did to Laos has lasted decades. Obama is the first sitting President to visit Laos ever. Refusing to acknowledge the damage would have been tremendously insulting to the people of Laos.

Next time, try including a modicum of context.

Tanngrisnir · Sep 13, 2016

Visbek said:
As in, you haven't heard a single speech he's given in the past year? How curious.

Who are "you guys?" Who is he saying is "better than us?" Who are "us"?

lol.... Wrong, world leaders spend lots of time apologizing.

Blair for Iraq: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...d-threat-from-iraq-chilcot-report-war-inquiry

Chirac for the fate of Jews during WWII: Chirac Affirms France's Guilt In Fate of Jews - NYTimes.com

Hollande acknowledges suffering of Algerians: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/20/francois-hollande-algerian-suffering-french

Japan's leaders have apologized for WWII since it ended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Meanwhile, back in the real world: Most of his remarks on arriving in Laos were in fact more about improving relations with Asian nations. E.g. complimenting Laotian culture, improving cooperation for the advancement of human rights and stronger economic ties, improving education, fostering trade, assuring them that the interest in Asia is real, encouraging the transition to democracy in Myanmar/Burma, the list goes on. I.e. you basically skipped the vast majority of what he actually said, in order to make it sound like he spent all day trashing the US. Impressive. :roll:

And again: The damage the US did to Laos has lasted decades. Obama is the first sitting President to visit Laos ever. Refusing to acknowledge the damage would have been tremendously insulting to the people of Laos.

Next time, try including a modicum of context.

And let's not forget that dyed-in-the-wool hard core socialist Ronald Reagan and his apology tour. Man, what an embarrassment he was to all real Americans.

I wonder why he was trying to undermine us on the world stage?

https://ceinquiry.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/reagan-apology/
http://www.alan.com/2014/11/10/revealed-ronald-reagan-apologized-for-america/

Visbek · Sep 13, 2016

AlbqOwl said:
Sigh. Already responded to in other posts. Try to keep up, okay?

What the...? You made those claims just a few posts/hours ago. I don't see any evidence of you substantiating any of those claims anywhere else in this thread.

Where is your evidence that the US had better educational achievement specifically because of local control?

Where is your evidence that health care was better when it was privatized -- and by extension, that it's not being beaten by single-payer / universal systems?

When was this magical time when government wasn't involved in industry and growth was high? Did you actually do a comparative analysis? Why isn't there any correlation between growth rates and regulation?

Do you genuinely not understand that the level of international competition has changed over the past decades, and cannot be rolled back?

Do you genuinely not understand that US manufacturing output is at record highs?

Obama is still apologizing for the United States

Absentglare

AlbqOwl

Absentglare

prometeus

joG

tres borrachos

HoHoHo

AlbqOwl

Somerville

AlbqOwl

joG

joG

Absentglare

AlbqOwl

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

AlbqOwl

AlbqOwl

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

Tanngrisnir

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle