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How do conservatives keep their hands clean from Trump?

SDET said:
I'm certainly not voting for Clinton, she's even worse than Trump. However Trump is wholly unfit to be president. It's just a matter of time before Trump's supporters have buyers remorse. How do conservatives position themselves to pick up the pieces?
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Don't move to Canada, we already have too many conservatives.
 
Chomsky said:
I never thought such words could leave your fingertips! :lamo

But you know, that may be true.

After 8 years of pissing about Obama and his Executive Orders, the GOP establishment and Congress Critters haven't seen Trump in action yet! Just this morning on Morning Joe, Trump claimed he was looking for a VP that could work with Congress so he could "legislate rather than rely on Executive Orders"!

Not sure if I got the quote exact, but the meaning is pretty accurate as I typed it above, I think.

He made it clear he wants to pass legislation! (which of course is the purview of Congress).

If he gets in, this might get Hella' interesting for the GOP. And do you doubt he won't work with the Dems and eschew the GOP, if the Dems can help him get his stuff across?
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Have you noticed Trump has a simple answer to everything? And it always seems to be, in effect, hiring or finding someone to do the job. I doubt the MSM in America would bother asking him some suggestions of who would serve in such a role. I mean after Boehner saying Trump is satan incarnate I wonder if anyone is ape **** crazy enough to take the job.
 
SDET said:
I'm certainly not voting for Clinton, she's even worse than Trump. However Trump is wholly unfit to be president. It's just a matter of time before Trump's supporters have buyers remorse. How do conservatives position themselves to pick up the pieces?
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They don't; ever read that book "Frankenstein?
 
Fearandloathing said:
Have you noticed Trump has a simple answer to everything? And it always seems to be, in effect, hiring or finding someone to do the job. I doubt the MSM in America would bother asking him some suggestions of who would serve in such a role. I mean after Boehner saying Trump is satan incarnate I wonder if anyone is ape **** crazy enough to take the job.
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I believe Boehner's referring to Ted Cruz, in that I bolded.
 
SDET said:
I'm certainly not voting for Clinton, she's even worse than Trump. However Trump is wholly unfit to be president. It's just a matter of time before Trump's supporters have buyers remorse. How do conservatives position themselves to pick up the pieces?
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Well, first of all, I disagree about Clinton. She is horrible, but she operates within the constraints of her party and the bureaucratic machinery. Trump is every bit as bad, and he is not bound by anything but his own mercurial ego. His authoritarian instincts and encyclopedic ignorance aside, would you really have psychotic Trump, rather than robotic Hillary, as the commander-in-chief of the most lethal military force in the history of the world?

Now, what you conservatives should do I am reluctant to pontificate - not being a conservative- but, imagining myself in your shoes....

(1) Never Trump. Hillary and her ilk are the adversary, the usual target, a part of normal world you live in. Trump is different - he is an existential threat. Follow the call by George Will and make sure that Trump loses all 50 states. Never again anyone like Trump.

(2) Get a makeover. Conservatism is attractive when it is smart, well-mannered and, yes, elitist. William Buckley, not Sara Palin. Purge populism. Don't even bother to stick to the (correct) Hayekian idea that any expertise in complex systems like human society is limited and any long-term planning without constant feedback is inherently flawed. That's our, libertarian job.
Insist on extolling professionalism, knowledge and gentlemanly behavior.

(3) Become actually conservative. As political philosophies go, there are two forces at work in modern society, roughly speaking: the liberal (libertarian) force (less forcible governing, more self-organization and voluntary interactions) and the socialist ("progressive", "liberal" in the American jargon) - the opposite. American conservatism was neither here nor there, combining elements of both and forgetting its prime function: Being the guardian of tradition, the proponent of caution, pragmatism and common sense - a brake on both socialist and libertarian impulses. Such conservatism is a respectable, perhaps indispensable, part of any political discourse.
 
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Fearandloathing said:
We seem to be witnessing an erosion of the right in North America. First, Canada's Harper made a hard tack to the right, and got creamed by left-wing spending through the Liberals, the supposed "middle party".

Now we see the American right take a hard turn into weirdness, where promises aren't really promises, just elect Trump and let him run things 'cause he's rich. The question becomes what will the conservatives in the party do now? To get to the White House, it is noted, Trump will have to get every vote Romney did, and more. It thus becomes a matter of who is the least threatening to the status quo until the GOP figures out what it is.
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In answer to your question: Set up conservative caucuses in the House and Senate, organize, do issue advocacy. Look to the Reagan movement of 1976. Reagan came back and won in 1980. When things become broken, stand ready with a solution.
 
SDET said:
In answer to your question: Set up conservative caucuses in the House and Senate, organize, do issue advocacy. Look to the Reagan movement of 1976. Reagan came back and won in 1980. When things become broken, stand ready with a solution.
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I suggest you send this advice to the GOP. I am sure they will give your expert advice it deserves
 
Grand Mal said:
Don't move to Canada, we already have too many conservatives.
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Don't worry, the pay rates are too low. I may retire there. I don't like to be bothered by neighbors and don't like the heat of my wife's native Amazon region of Brazil. Retiring in a nice cottage in Northern Manitoba seems mighty tempting.
 
SDET said:
Don't worry, the pay rates are too low.
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Yeah, but the taxes are high.

SDET said:
I may retire there. I don't like to be bothered by neighbors and don't like the heat of my wife's native Amazon region of Brazil. Retiring in a nice cottage in Northern Manitoba seems mighty tempting.
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Not much of Amazonia in northern Manitoba, that's for sure.
If you take a road trip to check it out you'd be doing yourself no favour if you don't get out west to BC.
 
Grand Mal said:
Yeah, but the taxes are high.



Not much of Amazonia in northern Manitoba, that's for sure.
If you take a road trip to check it out you'd be doing yourself no favour if you don't get out west to BC.
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The last time I was in BC was 1985. Over several trips I have driven the entire length of the Trans-Canada highway. I remember how much money I put in the tank back in 1981 driving a 1970 Cadillac with a 472 CID engine (12 MPG) from Victoria, BC to Kenora, ON. I'm glad Canada has raised their speed limits like they have done here in the US.
 
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SDET said:
I'm certainly not voting for Clinton, she's even worse than Trump. However Trump is wholly unfit to be president. It's just a matter of time before Trump's supporters have buyers remorse. How do conservatives position themselves to pick up the pieces?
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Obama is the worst President in American history. Trump doesn't have to try very hard to do better.
 
Cyrylek said:
Well, first of all, I disagree about Clinton. She is horrible, but she operates within the constraints of her party and the bureaucratic machinery. Trump is every bit as bad, and he is not bound by anything but his own mercurial ego. His authoritarian instincts and encyclopedic ignorance aside, would you really have psychotic Trump, rather than robotic Hillary, as the commander-in-chief of the most lethal military force in the history of the world?

Now, what you conservatives should do I am reluctant to pontificate - not being a conservative- but, imagining myself in your shoes....

(1) Never Trump. Hillary and her ilk are the adversary, the usual target, a part of normal world you live in. Trump is different - he is an existential threat. Follow the call by George Will and make sure that Trump loses all 50 states. Never again anyone like Trump.

(2) Get a makeover. Conservatism is attractive when it is smart, well-mannered and, yes, elitist. William Buckley, not Sara Palin. Purge populism. Don't even bother to stick to the (correct) Hayekian idea that any expertise in complex systems like human society is limited and any long-term planning without constant feedback is inherently flawed. That's our, libertarian job.
Insist on extolling professionalism, knowledge and gentlemanly behavior.

(3) Become actually conservative. As political philosophies go, there are two forces at work in modern society, roughly speaking: the liberal (libertarian) force (less forcible governing, more self-organization and voluntary interactions) and the socialist ("progressive", "liberal" in the American jargon) - the opposite. American conservatism was neither here nor there, combining elements of both and forgetting its prime function: Being the guardian of tradition, the proponent of caution, pragmatism and common sense - a brake on both socialist and libertarian impulses. Such conservatism is a respectable, perhaps indispensable, part of any political discourse.
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\

Holy crap that's a well put post.

the only caveat is about the "guardian of tradition"... Using government as a means control peoples individual choices is counter to a small but efficient government philosophy that is the base of conservative thinking.
 
Cyrylek said:
Well, first of all, I disagree about Clinton. She is horrible, but she operates within the constraints of her party and the bureaucratic machinery. Trump is every bit as bad, and he is not bound by anything but his own mercurial ego. His authoritarian instincts and encyclopedic ignorance aside, would you really have psychotic Trump, rather than robotic Hillary, as the commander-in-chief of the most lethal military force in the history of the world?

Now, what you conservatives should do I am reluctant to pontificate - not being a conservative- but, imagining myself in your shoes....

(1) Never Trump. Hillary and her ilk are the adversary, the usual target, a part of normal world you live in. Trump is different - he is an existential threat. Follow the call by George Will and make sure that Trump loses all 50 states. Never again anyone like Trump.

(2) Get a makeover. Conservatism is attractive when it is smart, well-mannered and, yes, elitist. William Buckley, not Sara Palin. Purge populism. Don't even bother to stick to the (correct) Hayekian idea that any expertise in complex systems like human society is limited and any long-term planning without constant feedback is inherently flawed. That's our, libertarian job.
Insist on extolling professionalism, knowledge and gentlemanly behavior.

(3) Become actually conservative. As political philosophies go, there are two forces at work in modern society, roughly speaking: the liberal (libertarian) force (less forcible governing, more self-organization and voluntary interactions) and the socialist ("progressive", "liberal" in the American jargon) - the opposite. American conservatism was neither here nor there, combining elements of both and forgetting its prime function: Being the guardian of tradition, the proponent of caution, pragmatism and common sense - a brake on both socialist and libertarian impulses. Such conservatism is a respectable, perhaps indispensable, part of any political discourse.
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This is excellent! :thumbs:

As someone who's generally not conservative though, perhaps I'm not the best to evaluate; but this looks pretty good from where I'm sitting.

I often lean left, but there are good conservative ideas, and we need them along with others. And as you stated, when heard through W.F.. Buckley or even Krauthammer for instance, I listen! I may not agree (or I may), but I STILL listen! I know I'll often enough disagree with Krauthammer, but when he speaks I can't help but focus and pay attention because I'm often going to hear something intelligent and worth pondering. But when Sarah Palin comes on, I'll smirk for a few seconds, before quickly changing the channel.

But I will say this: Buckley definitely comes across as both elitist and dated, and I'm not so sure how that would play today in totality; I'd be fine with it though, but I tend to like academic and scholarly discussion.

(I assume you're speaking of W.F. Buckley *Jr* here)
 
Chomsky said:
This is excellent! :thumbs:

As someone who's generally not conservative though, perhaps I'm not the best to evaluate; but this looks pretty good from where I'm sitting.

I often lean left, but there are good conservative ideas, and we need them along with others. And as you stated, when heard through W.F.. Buckley or even Krauthammer for instance, I listen! I may not agree (or I may), but I STILL listen! I know I'll often enough disagree with Krauthammer, but when he speaks I can't help but focus and pay attention because I'm often going to hear something intelligent and worth pondering. But when Sarah Palin comes on, I'll smirk for a few seconds, before quickly changing the channel.

But I will say this: Buckley definitely comes across as both elitist and dated, and I'm not so sure how that would play today in totality; I'd be fine with it though, but I tend to like academic and scholarly discussion.

(I assume you're speaking of W.F. Buckley *Jr* here)
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Although the self-stylized conservative movement didn't see it this way, there was a grand tradition of paternalistic and infrastructural conservatism a la Henry Clay, Theodore Roosevelt, Nelson Rockefeller, and Richard Nixon. It has more in common with Benjamin Disraeli than it does Goldwater or Buckley.

I don't think it should be discounted as an option, given that until the Summer of Trump, a more Jeffersonian version of it was starting to make serious inroads with several candidates in the GOP.

But much of me has been watching David Cameron with what he has been able to do to move Tories beyond Thatcherism, which I think many of us recognize the GOP needs to do with Reagan.

Regardless, de emphasizing the coarser populist elements that currently exist in the party would be welcomed.
 
SDET said:
The last time I was in BC was 1985. Over several trips I have driven the entire length of the Trans-Canada highway. I remember how much money I put in the tank back in 1981 driving a 1970 Cadillac with a 472 CID engine (12 MPG) from Victoria, BC to Kenora, ON. I'm glad Canada has raised their speed limits like they have done here in the US.
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Sounds like you've seen more of my country than I have.
I love those big Yank tanks. A half-acre of hood and more torque than a fleet of Toyotas. I had a '65 Chrysler S300, loved it and fuel consumption be damned.
I think the speed max is 110 K, never saw a higher one anyway. That's just short of 70 MPH.
 
FieldTheorist said:
You accept that the future of America has nothing to do with conservatism. Honestly, there's nothing you can really do. Conservatism was never actually very popular with the country, the Republican party was largely held together with a mish-mosh of racism and identity politics of the South and mid-West (who are largely just authoritarians with no ideological foundation), the fact that your philosophy could be easily manipulated by the rich and powerful (who can fund candidates who agree with you to unreasonable degrees), and a smattering of single-issue special interests (creationists, anti-gay marriage, pro-lifers, etc). That's what bound the Republican party together and kept conservatives (rather than authoritarians, right-wing libertarians, etc) in control.

There's simply not enough people in the general public to support a Republican party with a traditional conservative ideology, let alone what's waiting for you over the next 30 years. The Republicans will now switch to authoritarians, but I suspect this is going to fail much sooner than the conservative (neoliberal capitalist and traditionalist) Republican party of the last 40 years.
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Yup, Conservatism is on the ropes....:roll:

The Republican Wave Sweeps the Midterm Elections - The Atlantic
 
Grand Mal said:
Sounds like you've seen more of my country than I have.
I love those big Yank tanks. A half-acre of hood and more torque than a fleet of Toyotas. I had a '65 Chrysler S300, loved it and fuel consumption be damned.
I think the speed max is 110 K, never saw a higher one anyway. That's just short of 70 MPH.
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In 1981 it was 90 km/h on the Trans-Canada in BC. In Alberta back then I got pulled over and warned for 127 km/h in a 100 km zone.
 
Chomsky said:
I couldn't have said this better.

And just as importantly today, the GOP fostered and encouraged an environment where all these often fringe, aberrant, and even delusional ideas where accepted as normal everyday fact by their voters, spawning a fertile environment for a birther fast talker like Trump to come along and sway them away!

How can the GOP establishment claim Trump is crazy or B.S., when they fed their voters crazy & B.S. to the point that many can no longer discern crazy or B.S.? And viola: The establishment were defenseless against Trump!
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Obama has as much to do with Trump as anyone. Trumps message of a makingAmerica strong again would fall on deaf ears if it wasnt for the damage Obama's done
 
At the end of the day... I think there is going to have to be a redefining of whats considered conservative.

the idea of smaller more efficient government that stayed out of peoples social lives.. is what conservative used to be based on.

No more. and that is playing out in the GOP party right now.
 
Lutherf said:
It's kind of a fascinating thing to observe. The Trump supporters are sounding a whole lot like the Obama supporters of 8 years ago. The see nothing but a solution to all their problems in this guy and that certainly won't be the case.
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You can't say this enough.
 
Fenton said:
Yup, Conservatism is on the ropes....:roll:

The Republican Wave Sweeps the Midterm Elections - The Atlantic
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You're confusing "Republican" with "conservative." The new voters who're going for Trump aren't conservatives, they're a mixture of authoritarians, white nationalists, Fascist Lite, and then a lot of people who've been disenfranchized by the Democratic party when Bill Clinton through Barrack Obama sold them down the river by shipping their jobs overseas. You'll notice that Trump is not at all anything like a conservative, and he's now pulling in more than half of the Republican party base's support. That should be instructive for you.
 
FieldTheorist said:
You're confusing "Republican" with "conservative." The new voters who're going for Trump aren't conservatives, they're a mixture of authoritarians, white nationalists, Fascist Lite, and then a lot of people who've been disenfranchized by the Democratic party when Bill Clinton through Barrack Obama sold them down the river by shipping their jobs overseas. You'll notice that Trump is not at all anything like a conservative, and he's now pulling in more than half of the Republican party base's support. That should be instructive for you.
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True Trumps no Conservative but that doesn't mean Conservatism is by any means on its way out.

Conservatives believe that there's wisdom in established social norms and tradition and that the best way to stop change for the sake of change ( which can be very destructive ) is to give deference to what works now and whats worked in the past.

Conservatism isnt just going to disappear and ironically one of the best ways to grow the Conservative ideology is to give progressives the power to inflict their ideology upon more and more people.

2014 was a example of that. Not completely a Conservative victory, but NOT a stike in the Win column for the party of the left
 
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Fenton said:
True Trumps no Conservative but that doesn't mean Conservatism is by any means on its way out.

Conservatives believe that there's wisdom in established social norms and tradition and that the best way to stop change for the sake of change ( which can be very destructive ) is to give deference to what works now and whats worked in the past.

Conservatism isnt just going to disappear and ironically one of the best ways to grow the Conservative ideology is to give progressives the power to inflict their ideology upon more and more people.

2014 was a example of that. Not completely a Conservative victory, but NOT a stike in the Win column for the party of the left
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Fenton, 2014 was the lowest voter turnout in modern American history, and this is your example of a stunning conservative upset? Yeah, it was bad, but an actual conservative victory would be more like "Conservatives win after historically high voter turnout." Donald Trump is doing this for the Republican party now, but it's a vote for authoritarian "Big Leader" who will take care of them. But in 2014, Americans were aggravated and maddened by how badly they are being represented in Congress, so they didn't feel like it was worth it to show up at the polls. I disagree, of course, and did show up to vote against Republicans, but it's hard not to see why they felt that way.
 
FieldTheorist said:
Fenton, 2014 was the lowest voter turnout in modern American history, and this is your example of a stunning conservative upset? Yeah, it was bad, but an actual conservative victory would be more like "Conservatives win after historically high voter turnout." Donald Trump is doing this for the Republican party now, but it's a vote for authoritarian "Big Leader" who will take care of them. But in 2014, Americans were aggravated and maddened by how badly they are being represented in Congress, so they didn't feel like it was worth it to show up at the polls. I disagree, of course, and did show up to vote against Republicans, but it's hard not to see why they felt that way.
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First, Im no Trump supporter, Im a proud Conservative. He's not, so bad mouth him all you want, chances are we'll agree.

Now, such low turn out, for the Democrats, for the party that represents your ideology

It would seem their plan to appeal to the naive and uninformed via identity politics and platitudes didnt work in their favor

You see its all they had to work with after 6 years of Obama.

So what are they left with ? Well theyre trying it again !!

Divisive enpty rehtoric that seeks to create victims, that builds classes and then pits them against one another

Desperate attempts to convince as many people as possible that theyre helpless, hopeless victims of a sinister and systemic enemy and their only hope is to rely on the Government

Good luck with that Dems, your'e going to need it.

Now, back to Game of Thrones, Im trying to catch up and Im only on Season 4 !
 
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