The Great Republican Revolt

calamity · Dec 22, 2015

There is a civil war going on in the GOP. And....it's spelled T R U M P

Here's a good article breaking it all down.

Something has changed in American politics since the Great Recession. The old slogans ring hollow. The insurgent candidates are less absurd, the orthodox candidates more vulnerable. The GOP donor elite planned a dynastic restoration in 2016. Instead, it triggered an internal class war.

...The puzzle for the monied leaders of the Republican Party is: What now? And what next after that? None of the options facing the GOP elite is entirely congenial. But there appear to be four paths the elite could follow, for this campaign season and beyond. They lead the party in very different directions.

Will the Republican Party Survive the 2016 Election? - The Atlantic

haymarket · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
There is a civil war going on in the GOP. And....it's spelled T R U M P

Here's a good article breaking it all down.

Thank you for the article Calamity. I am most intrigued by what I have read so far. I especially liked this part which was rather insightful and demonstrates the divisions in American society today

Politics was becoming more central to Americans’ identities in the 21st century than it ever was in the 20th. Would you be upset if your child married a supporter of a different party from your own? In 1960, only 5 percent of Americans said yes. In 2010, a third of Democrats and half of Republicans did. Political identity has become so central because it has come to overlap with so many other aspects of identity: race, religion, lifestyle. In 1960, I wouldn’t have learned much about your politics if you told me that you hunted. Today, that hobby strongly suggests Republican loyalty. Unmarried? In 1960, that indicated little. Today, it predicts that you’re a Democrat, especially if you’re also a woman.

more to come when I finish reading it.

calamity · Dec 22, 2015

haymarket said:
Thank you for the article Calamity. I am most intrigued by what I have read so far. I especially liked this part which was rather insightful and demonstrates the divisions in American society today

more to come when I finish reading it.

Yep. It's a great article, well written and it explains much of what we are seeing today. As to your post, yes. It is pretty obvious that political divisions have taken center stage.

That people on the Left and Right do not like each other has been pretty clear for over a decade now...maybe even twenty years. But, today, even the divisions within those subsets is getting fierce. TG dinner this year was exciting as two Right Wingers in my family went at it over the Trump-Jeb divide. One guy, a clear Trump Demographic: white, middle age, no college who drives a tow truck; went after my brother in-law, a finance guy who works for a major medical provider. Good stuff. It used to be that the Righties would gang up on the liberal hippie girl in the family--my wife.

brothern · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
Here's a good article breaking it all down.

I read that article last night. The author is very insightful.

calamity · Dec 22, 2015

brothern said:
I read that article last night. The author is very insightful.

He did an excellent job of laying out the situation, and yes, his insight went a long way in explaining what we are witnessing.

haymarket · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
Yep. It's a great article, well written and it explains much of what we are seeing today. As to your post, yes. It is pretty obvious that political divisions have taken center stage.

That people on the Left and Right do not like each other has been pretty clear for over a decade now...maybe even twenty years. But, today, even the divisions within those subsets is getting fierce. TG dinner this year was exciting as two Right Wingers in my family went at it over the Trump-Jeb divide. One guy, a clear Trump Demographic: white, middle age, no college who drives a tow truck; went after my brother in-law, a finance guy who works for a major medical provider. Good stuff. It used to be that the Righties would gang up on the liberal hippie girl in the family--my wife.

Great story. Glad to see the hippie girl is no longer the target.

Much the same thing used to happen when we got together with the parents of my daughter-in-law who are solid tea party types - he who worked on the line in a Michigan auto plant and she as a receptionist in an vets office. Then we realized we both agreed on some of things that Frum wisely points out in his article
*** support for saving Social Security
*** protecting US jobs from internationalism
*** protecting American pensions for those who have earned them
*** not serving Wall Street interests over Main Street.

So we concentrate on those and agree and leave the other stuff like God and gays and guns and government aside while our kids are happy we worked out a middle ground.

I finished the article and give lots of credit to David Frum for a really excellent piece.

calamity · Dec 22, 2015

haymarket said:
Great story. Glad to see the hippie girl is no longer the target.

Much the same thing used to happen when we got together with the parents of my daughter-in-law who are solid tea party types - he who worked on the line in a Michigan auto plant and she as a receptionist in an vets office. Then we realized we both agreed on some of things that Frum wisely points out in his article
*** support for saving Social Security
*** protecting US jobs from internationalism
*** protecting American pensions for those who have earned them
*** not serving Wall Street interests over Main Street.

So we concentrate on those and agree and leave the other stuff like God and gays and guns and government aside while our kids are happy we worked out a middle ground.

I finished the article and give lots of credit to David Frum for a really excellent piece.

Those are clearly winning issues. A candidate should focus on those and not let them get drowned out by the noise surrounding hot-button topics like guns, god and abortion.

On immigrants, especially illegal ones, the focus should be on punishing employers who hire them. I prefer that over rounding them up and detaining them in camps until we can deport them.

haymarket · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
Those are clearly winning issues. A candidate should focus on those and not let them get drowned out by the noise surrounding hot-button topics like guns, god and abortion.

On immigrants, especially illegal ones, the focus should be on punishing employers who hire them. I prefer that over rounding them up and detaining them in camps until we can deport them.

I am in complete agreement. I have long supported the idea that any employer who hires anyone who is illegal should be fined $10,000.00 per day of employment per employee. That would do the trick rather quickly and easily.

CanadaJohn · Dec 22, 2015

haymarket said:
Great story. Glad to see the hippie girl is no longer the target.

Much the same thing used to happen when we got together with the parents of my daughter-in-law who are solid tea party types - he who worked on the line in a Michigan auto plant and she as a receptionist in an vets office. Then we realized we both agreed on some of things that Frum wisely points out in his article
*** support for saving Social Security
*** protecting US jobs from internationalism
*** protecting American pensions for those who have earned them
*** not serving Wall Street interests over Main Street.

So we concentrate on those and agree and leave the other stuff like God and gays and guns and government aside while our kids are happy we worked out a middle ground.

I finished the article and give lots of credit to David Frum for a really excellent piece.

We Canadian conservatives are quite insightful unlike our brethren to the south who are quite inciteful.

Casper · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
There is a civil war going on in the GOP. And....it's spelled T R U M P

Here's a good article breaking it all down.

All the GOP has to do is kick him and his followers out of the Party. Heck when trump gets rejected he will probably go off and start his own, doomed to obscurity from the beginning.

Casper · Dec 22, 2015

haymarket said:
I am in complete agreement. I have long supported the idea that any employer who hires anyone who is illegal should be fined $10,000.00 per day of employment per employee. That would do the trick rather quickly and easily.

Been saying the same for years now, guess what, never gonna happen, no politicians is willing to bite the hands that feeds them, not even trump.

Risky Thicket · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
There is a civil war going on in the GOP. And....it's spelled T R U M P

Here's a good article breaking it all down.

Good article, thanks.

Excellent analysis. I suppose only a dyed in the wool Republican such as David Frum could write with such informed point of view. At the same time we must realize that the piece is written from a deep Republican perspective. But it doesn't appear to be very biased.

Frum's 4 Options are probably the best I've heard concerning the donnybrook that is what is left of the GOP and how the GOP might salvage itself. I don't think the GOP will salvage itself anymore than I believe the Democratic Party will. Americans are sick of both parties. There is no promising future with either party involved. It's over.

I'll take option number 4. Not because I like it but rather because I see it as the most viable for the GOP. Would it ultimately be successful? No, I don't think it would.

Living in a Tea Party state that has witnessed a whole bunch of ugly in the name of Tea Partisan conservatism I know people are fed the hell up with Tea Party shuck and jive. (Today, as a matter of fact, we discovered that our Tea Party governor just appointed a state senator, with no college education, to be the chair of the state senate education committee. This is a Tea Partier who is a Young Earther; she has stated publicly that the earth is 6,000 years old. Earlier this year she said that the state should require everyone to attend church on Sunday. This is a lady who often demonstrates why she has never been the first on anyone's mind when you mention education...well, unless you are a Tea Party governor with a Tea Party legislature. Arizona ranks 38th in education.)

That is a perfect example why in practice option 4 will not be sustainable. Look at butt brained legislative attempts at state levels across America and in most cases there will be Tea Party legislator behind it.

What Frum said about his option 4:

Recently, Rory Cooper, of the communications firm Purple Strategies, tallied a net gain to the Republicans of 69 seats in the House of Representatives, 13 seats in the Senate, 900-plus seats in state legislatures, and 12 governorships since Obama took office. With that kind of grip on state government, in particular, Republicans are well positioned to write election and voting rules that sustain their hold on the national legislature. The president may be able to grant formerly illegal immigrants the right to work, but he cannot grant them the right to vote. In this light, instead of revising Republican policies to stop future Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons, maybe it’s necessary to revise only the party rules to stop future Donald Trumps from confronting party elites with their own unpopularity.

It is the option they will take, though not exclusively. Nevertheless, it won't work.

Ntharotep · Dec 22, 2015

I was reading an article in the Washington Times today that asked if Trump was a Democratic plant. Considering how outlandish he is and that he has only contributed about 100k less to the Democrats than to the Republicans over the year it would be a kind of genius tactic really, starting with his Obama birth certificate reemergence attempt down to the outlandish and almost caricature of the worse privileged white American stance ever seen.
Wahington Times: Trump a Plant?
It would make me sad if one party would do that just to get Hillary in office but a) it wouldn't surprise me as much as trust either of the two faces of the bipartisan empire and b) it would still be a pretty genius move.

calamity · Dec 22, 2015

Risky Thicket said:
Good article, thanks.

Excellent analysis. I suppose only a dyed in the wool Republican such as David Frum could write with such informed point of view. At the same time we must realize that the piece is written from a deep Republican perspective. But it doesn't appear to be very biased.

Frum's 4 Options are probably the best I've heard concerning the donnybrook that is what is left of the GOP and how the GOP might salvage itself. I don't think the GOP will salvage itself anymore than I believe the Democratic Party will. Americans are sick of both parties. There is no promising future with either party involved. It's over.

I'll take option number 4. Not because I like it but rather because I see it as the most viable for the GOP. Would it ultimately be successful? No, I don't think it would.

Living in a Tea Party state that has witnessed a whole bunch of ugly in the name of Tea Partisan conservatism I know people are fed the hell up with Tea Party shuck and jive. (Today, as a matter of fact, we discovered that our Tea Party governor just appointed a state senator, with no college education, to be the chair of the state senate education committee. This is a Tea Partier who is a Young Earther; she has stated publicly that the earth is 6,000 years old. Earlier this year she said that the state should require everyone to attend church on Sunday. This is a lady who often demonstrates why she has never been the first on anyone's mind when you mention education...well, unless you are a Tea Party governor with a Tea Party legislature. Arizona ranks 38th in education.)

That is a perfect example why in practice option 4 will not be sustainable. Look at butt brained legislative attempts at state levels across America and in most cases there will be Tea Party legislator behind it.

What Frum said about his option 4:

It is the option they will take, though not exclusively. Nevertheless, it won't work.

I'm an option 3 guy.

...party elites could try to open more ideological space for the economic interests of the middle class. Make peace with universal health-insurance coverage: Mend Obamacare rather than end it. Cut taxes less at the top, and use the money to deliver more benefits to working families in the middle. Devise immigration policy to support wages, not undercut them. Worry more about regulations that artificially transfer wealth upward, and less about regulations that constrain financial speculation. Take seriously issues such as the length of commutes, nursing-home costs, and the anticompetitive practices that inflate college tuition.

But, I'm a dreamer. No way they go this route.

calamity · Dec 22, 2015

Ntharotep said:
I was reading an article in the Washington Times today that asked if Trump was a Democratic plant. Considering how outlandish he is and that he has only contributed about 100k less to the Democrats than to the Republicans over the year it would be a kind of genius tactic really, starting with his Obama birth certificate reemergence attempt down to the outlandish and almost caricature of the worse privileged white American stance ever seen.
Wahington Times: Trump a Plant?
It would make me sad if one party would do that just to get Hillary in office but a) it wouldn't surprise me as much as trust either of the two faces of the bipartisan empire and b) it would still be a pretty genius move.

Well, stranger things have happened before, so...

Risky Thicket · Dec 22, 2015

calamity said:
I'm an option 3 guy.

But, I'm a dreamer. No way they go this route.

Oh yeah, I agree. If I had to choose an option that I could most live with it would certainly be 3. I also agree that there is no way they would go that route. Also, the GOP could never agree to a compromise within the party. The time has come when the GOP are more divided than the Democrats. I never thought that possible.

Roadvirus · Dec 22, 2015

Casper said:
All the GOP has to do is kick him and his followers out of the Party.

And then the GOP really will die. The bobbleheads in the GOP leadership are clueless.

Casper · Dec 22, 2015

Roadvirus said:
And then the GOP really will die. The bobbleheads in the GOP leadership are clueless.

Maybe and Maybe not, if the Dems lean far enough to the left many moderates might see the GOP, made up of what some far right call Neo Cons, as a more moderate Party than either the Democrat Party or any Party the far right might build up. Should be interesting unfold, if it does, watching History in the making is always a blast.

fmw · Dec 23, 2015

Our political process has become a circus. We seem to be headed to choosing between a loud mouthed celebrity billionaire and an incompetent liar. We choose people based on their fame, physical appearance and empty promises. We have an incompetent electorate. And it gets worse every election cycle. And we wonder why our government is so incompetent and corrupt. Competent people won't run for office because the job isn't worth the media gauntlet and reputation destruction they have to run to get it. What a mess.

The Great Republican Revolt

calamity

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haymarket

calamity

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brothern

calamity

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haymarket

calamity

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haymarket

CanadaJohn

Canadian Conservative

Casper

Casper

Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat

Ntharotep

Well-known member

calamity

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calamity

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Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat

Roadvirus

Heading North

Casper

fmw