Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements[W:183]

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

cpwill said:

One of the critical lessons to learn with the "savings through reduced payments to doctors" strategy is that access to health insurance is not the same thing as access to health care.

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Yep, sometimes you get what you pay for. Unlike SNAP which pays full retail price even if that price is inflated 40% at a "convenience" store. I have noticed that our Walmart deli now has already cooked (whole) chickens, sold chilled instead of hot, so that they are then SNAP eligible.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

MTAtech said:

what happens if you get a serious illness before one has funded that account enough?

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what happens when you get a serious illness and you can't fund the obamacare 6k deductible.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

couldn't you at least admit that uninsured Americans dropping to the lowest rate ever is just a little bit of progress?

"For the first time in more than 50 years of surveys, the CDC on Wednesday reported that more than 90% of Americans — 90.8% of us, to be specific — have health insurance.

Until now, no major survey had ever found that the uninsured rate in America has hit single digits.
"
Thanks, Obamacare: America's Uninsured Rate Is Below 10% For First Time Ever

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If the goal is to simply cover people, in a vacuum, the ACA has been a resounding success. Seeing as how it's now illegal to not be covered, it's no wonder why.

If one is concerned with the effects on the existing insured, the ACA represents a redistributive failure of epic proportions. A great number of those who already had insurance and were happy with it now pay more for worse coverage, namely those who run small businesses that contributed to employee programs - those good actors who were already doing what the powers that be said never happened due to greed.

If one is concerned about redistributive policies in general, the ACA represents a new entitlement program, and entitlement programs are impossible to get rid of once they are firmly established.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ludin said:

what happens when you get a serious illness and you can't fund the obamacare 6k deductible.

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That's certainly better than needed a $100,000 operation and not having the $100,000. Also, if one is having a $100,000 operation and you don't have the $6,000 out-of-pocket, the doctor will often wave that part, since they're getting $94,000 from the insurance company.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ttwtt78640 said:

One of the primary problems with Medciad is the long wait for the small payment offered for services. That problem can (and should be) fixed and adding more funding would go a long way towards that end.

Another problem with Medcaid is the lack of preventive care sought (or accepted) making those that do get care more likely to need more care when they finally seek (or get accepted for) care. That too can be less of a problem with Medcaid reform that increases the patient pool and offers better care reimbusement rates.

Why physicians are hesitant to take Medicaid patients

Attention Medicaid Patients: The Doctor Won't Be Seeing You

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yet that is the exact single payer system that you will get.

plus the fact that even if they implemented a single payer system they can't force doctors or hospitals to take it. indentured servitude ended a long time ago.

that is why I propose a HSA system for everyone. the government throws in a single tax credit at the beginning of every year plus what you and your company contribute.
companies get bonus tax deductions for contributions of 10K a year or more toward their employee's.

Singapore runs a similar system and basically the government only spend 33% of the total healthcare budget the other 67% or so if funded by people and companies.
it is cheap and affordable.

most hospitals discount 50-90% off the rate if you pay cash and cash only.

Freakonomics » Paying Less ? Without Health Insurance

a 20k dollar surgery for 3k dollars. huh what?

Got Health Insurance? Why You May Want To Pay Cash Anyway

we don't need government we don't need insurance. cash is king

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

MTAtech said:

That's certainly better than needed a $100,000 operation and not having the $100,000. Also, if one is having a $100,000 operation and you don't have the $6,000 out-of-pocket, the doctor will often wave that part, since they're getting $94,000 from the insurance company.

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you are parroting nonsense. no they won't waive it. they will want their money or send you to collections.
ol and that 6k is where the insurance just kicks in. usually you have another 20-30% depending on your obamacare plan that you have to pay as well.

so you have 6k for the deductible then you have 20%-30% up to the oop cap. after that yeah you don't owe anything.

however so far you can do far better than the price you are getting by insurance.

Slash Your Medical Bills: 7 Ways to Haggle : MBAA

there are even local GP's that are going all cash. they charge 10 a month per kid 50 per adult and 99 for seniors for full access
to the clinic.

instead of paying 99 through insurance for blood work they can get it for 18.

Many hospitals, doctors offer cash discount for medical bills - latimes

cash is king.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ludin said:

you are parroting nonsense. no they won't waive it. they will want their money or send you to collections.
ol and that 6k is where the insurance just kicks in. usually you have another 20-30% depending on your obamacare plan that you have to pay as well.

so you have 6k for the deductible then you have 20%-30% up to the oop cap. after that yeah you don't owe anything.

however so far you can do far better than the price you are getting by insurance.

Slash Your Medical Bills: 7 Ways to Haggle : MBAA

there are even local GP's that are going all cash. they charge 10 a month per kid 50 per adult and 99 for seniors for full access
to the clinic.

instead of paying 99 through insurance for blood work they can get it for 18.

Many hospitals, doctors offer cash discount for medical bills - latimes

cash is king.

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Well, I am glad that you think it is nonsense -- since my son had exactly that happen -- he needed an expensive operation and most was covered by insurance. He told the doctor that he didn't have the difference and the doctor said, 'I'll just accept what the insurance co paid.'

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

MTAtech said:

Well, I am glad that you think it is nonsense -- since my son had exactly that happen -- he needed an expensive operation and most was covered by insurance. He told the doctor that he didn't have the difference and the doctor said, 'I'll just accept what the insurance co paid.'

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anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ludin said:

anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

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It is to a liberal...

Obama uses anecdotal evidence all the time to justify his actions.

LOL!!

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Mycroft said:

I know a lot of forum members don't want to see anybody propose alternatives to Obamacare, and a lot will do everything they can to talk down any alternative that is proposed.

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sorry MC, you really don't get it. read this slowly, most if not all democrats cant wait to see the proposals from the republican candidates. And yes, we are going to talk them down. Because as I stated in the OP, the proposals have to walk a fine line of trying to appear legitimate without being too close to Obamacare. You cant rant dishonestly at something for 6 years and then propose the same thing. That’s why Walker’s hilarious proposal had subsidies tied to age. Yes, subsidies tied to age not income. Forget that the other members of the clown car are calling it "Obamacare lite" just remember it not only has subsidies but subsidies based on age.

and MC, we’re not the party that stormed the townhalls to shut down any discussion of Obamacare. We’re not the party that came up with the idea of mandates and supported them for 20 years and then stopped only when President Obama supported them. We’re not the party that screamed for 6 years Obamacare couldn’t work and had to be repealed. We’re not the party that has ignore that its working (and working quite well) by increasing access, affordability and quality all while decreasing the deficit. so yes MC, we are capable of having an honest and intelligent conversation concerning Obamacare. You simply are not. What, you don't believe me. Read this.

and as more and more parts of Obamacare have been delayed (mostly for political purposes) and more parts go into effect, the majority of Americans don't like the crappy law.

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the only thing left that was delayed is employer mandates for companies from 50 to 99 employees. Since about 86% of them already offer healthcare to employees, its not going to be much of a change. MC, you simply look for any excuse not to accept that Obamacare is working. And if there is a plan from republicans that does a better job than Obamacare increasing access, affordability and quality while reducing the deficit, I would support that.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

sorry MC, you really don't get it. read this slowly, most if not all democrats cant wait to see the proposals from the republican candidates.

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Just because I disagree with you, it doesn't follow that I don't "get it". So take your patronizing attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine.

And yes, we are going to talk them down. Because as I stated in the OP, the proposals have to walk a fine line of trying to appear legitimate without being too close to Obamacare. You cant rant dishonestly at something for 6 years and then propose the same thing. That’s why Walker’s hilarious proposal had subsidies tied to age. Yes, subsidies tied to age not income. Forget that the other members of the clown car are calling it "Obamacare lite" just remember it not only has subsidies but subsidies based on age.

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And, speaking of attitudes, when you use such terms as "hilarious" and "clowncar", you send the very real message that you are not inclined to take any such proposals seriously...which is exactly what I spoke about.

If you have objections about a proposal that ties subsidies to age, then debate that proposal instead of just contending that the proposal is "hilarious". Otherwise, you'll be subject to my justified disdain.

and MC, we’re not the party that stormed the townhalls to shut down any discussion of Obamacare. We’re not the party that came up with the idea of mandates and supported them for 20 years and then stopped only when President Obama supported them. We’re not the party that screamed for 6 years Obamacare couldn’t work and had to be repealed. We’re not the party that has ignore that its working (and working quite well) by increasing access, affordability and quality all while decreasing the deficit. so yes MC, we are capable of having an honest and intelligent conversation concerning Obamacare. You simply are not. What, you don't believe me.

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You are the Party that disregarded the objections of the majority of Americans and used legislative shenanigans to pass the law.

Read this.


the only thing left that was delayed is employer mandates for companies from 50 to 99 employees. Since about 86% of them already offer healthcare to employees, its not going to be much of a change.

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Not true.

Another Obamacare delay has taken effect, although you may not have heard.

The administration has quietly announced that it was delaying through October 2016 the Affordable Care Act's individual mandate for millions of Americans who have lost their healthcare coverage.

The latest change was buried in an announcement that Americans would be able to keep health plans that do not meet Obamacare standards for another two years, Fox News reports.

Political consultant Dick Morris says the effect of this announcement with all the other Obamacare delays means that the act has now effectively been repealed.

"When you take the employer mandate that's been postponed, the small-business mandate that's been postponed, and the individual mandate that now has been given all kinds of escape clauses," he said, "you're essentially saying the boss doesn't have to provide it and you don't have to buy it. So, what's left?" he said on Newsmax TV's America's Forum.

"You don't have to buy insurance because there are all these escapes and your boss doesn't have to buy insurance if he is a small, medium or large business," he said. "This is to say any employer. And essentially now, all of it is postponed or overridden. So, it's really a [de facto] repeal."
White House Quietly Extends Obamacare Individual Mandate to 2016

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Read further in that article and you'll find out why Obama enacted that delay. (political purposes)

MC, you simply look for any excuse not to accept that Obamacare is working.

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Again, not true. Obamacare, itself, provides all the reasons not to accept that it's working. I don't have to look for anything.

And if there is a plan from republicans that does a better job than Obamacare increasing access, affordability and quality while reducing the deficit, I would support that.

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You'll understand, I'm sure, when I say that your own words put the lie to this statement.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ludin said:

anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

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The same thing has happened to me in a heart transplant situation at one of the top transplant centers in the nation

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ludin said:

what happens when you get a serious illness and you can't fund the obamacare 6k deductible.

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you end up (at most) $6k in debt, compared to the unlimited debt your "plan" results in

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

couldn't you at least admit that uninsured Americans dropping to the lowest rate ever is just a little bit of progress?

"For the first time in more than 50 years of surveys, the CDC on Wednesday reported that more than 90% of Americans — 90.8% of us, to be specific — have health insurance.

Until now, no major survey had ever found that the uninsured rate in America has hit single digits.
"
Thanks, Obamacare: America's Uninsured Rate Is Below 10% For First Time Ever

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Insurance doesn't make people well, healthcare does. If you can show that more people are getting healthcare than ever before, you might have a point. Right now, our biggest problem isn't insurance it's the availability of healthcare. Increase that and you increase competition and that helps to lower costs.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

faithful_servant said:

Insurance doesn't make people well, healthcare does. If you can show that more people are getting healthcare than ever before, you might have a point. Right now, our biggest problem isn't insurance it's the availability of healthcare. Increase that and you increase competition and that helps to lower costs.

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FS, once again you post something you think makes sense. If you think people who've been denied coverage and/or couldn't afford it and are now covered are not getting healthcare, please explain.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Gonzo Rodeo said:

If the goal is to simply cover people, in a vacuum, the ACA has been a resounding success. Seeing as how it's now illegal to not be covered, it's no wonder why..

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er uh GR, the "mandate" was not in effect for 2014 yet people signed up. And as has been stated repeatedly, cons said "people wouldn't sign up". When people signed up, cons simply changed their narrative to "they had to sign up". So you add nothing of substance to the conversation. And if you bothered to read the OP, Walker's proposal still has subsidies. He hilariously wants to be based on age not income. If you want to add something to the debate, please explain how that makes any sense.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ttwtt78640 said:

A reasonable approach to public health insurance reform would be to expand Medicaid by adding premium costs (funding). This could be done by adding an income based premium (in the form of a 5%? payroll tax) much like Medicare is now funded - the key difference is that a person could opt in (or out) of "self funded" Medicaid. Instead of using public funds to pay (subsidize) a private middle man (15% to 20% of which is being wasted on overhead) let the government (state and/or federal) collect Medicaid premiums and pay Medicaid claims.

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Except Medicaid doesn't generally work like that anymore. It's largely privatized--you pick a private insurance company (called a Medicaid managed care organization), enroll, they get some money from the state government (effectively your premium), they cobble together a provider network and negotiate reimbursement rates to pay providers when you obtain services. Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas is one of the insurers offering Medicaid plans in your area and if you were a Medicaid beneficiary who enrolled in it BCBS would be the one paying your claims, not the state of Texas.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

ludin said:

what happens when you get a serious illness and you can't fund the obamacare 6k deductible.

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Ludin, read this slowly. If you have insurance and you need an expensive operation, you don't have to pay the deductible up front. You get the operation. As stated by posters who routinely don't post delusion as fact, the hospital may wave the deductible. And if they dont, they bill you.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

er uh GR, the "mandate" was not in effect for 2014 yet people signed up. And as has been stated repeatedly, cons said "people wouldn't sign up". When people signed up, cons simply changed their narrative to "they had to sign up". So you add nothing of substance to the conversation. And if you bothered to read the OP, Walker's proposal still has subsidies. He hilariously wants to be based on age not income. If you want to add something to the debate, please explain how that makes any sense.

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The percentage of uninsured peaked during 2013. The percentage of uninsured dropped in 2014 after the mandate was in effect.

http://obamacarefacts.com/sign-ups/obamacare-enrollment-numbers/

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

Since the right has been pandering to their base the last 6 years, they will have to walk a fine line. Looks like walker is giving the ole college try

"Walker's proposal calls for repealing the law immediately and replacing it with a plan that gives states more power to operate Medicaid, ties refundable tax credits to age rather than income, and shifts to discretion of states the decision on whether to offer the popular Obama provision that currently allows people up to age 26 to remain on their parents' insurance plans."

GOP hopeful Scott Walker offers health plan with tax credits - Yahoo Finance

The first one is tradition and the last one is filler. That second one is a head scratcher:" tax credits to age rather than income." Can one con please explain “tax credits tied to age” with anything other than “er uh Obamacare ties it to income so I had to be different” ?

I like this statement
“Robert Laszewski, a health care industry consultant and commentator who has been critical of Obama's law, called Walker's proposal naive.”

That’s being nice compared to this

Walker's healthcare plan is perfect, if you want almost no insurance at all
Walker's healthcare plan is perfect, if you want almost no insurance at all - LA Times

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For once, Vern, we might actually agree. The idea that a republican candidate will repeal Obamacare once taking office is exactly ZERO. The time to kill this baby was when it was still in the womb. Its been born, and just like every other entitlement, it will never die.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Gonzo Rodeo said:

The percentage of uninsured peaked during 2013. The percentage of uninsured dropped in 2014 after the mandate was in effect.

http://obamacarefacts.com/sign-ups/obamacare-enrollment-numbers/

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and the rate dropped in 2014 when insurance companies couldn't exclude people with pre-existing conditions. And it dropped in 2014 when people got subsidies to buy insurance. and it dropped (only in states where the politicians didn't cling to a failed ideology) when they expanded Medicaid. If you think the 95 dollar fine for not having coverage in 2014 explains the drop in the uninsured rate then you should drive where I drive. The fine for speeding doesn't stop people from speeding.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Fletch said:

For once, Vern, we might actually agree. The idea that a republican candidate will repeal Obamacare once taking office is exactly ZERO. The time to kill this baby was when it was still in the womb. Its been born, and just like every other entitlement, it will never die.

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fletch, I realize your ideology requires you call it an entitlement program but instead of hiding behind labels, tell us whats wrong with it (remembering of course, it was a republican idea). And if you attempt to tell us whats wrong with it, please compare it to the republican plan of "status quo".

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

fletch, I realize your ideology requires you call it an entitlement program but instead of hiding behind labels, tell us whats wrong with it (remembering of course, it was a republican idea). And if you attempt to tell us whats wrong with it, please compare it to the republican plan of "status quo".

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If it was, as you say, a republican idea and republicans, as you say, are always wrong about everything, why don't you tell me whats wrong with Obamacare.

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

and the rate dropped in 2014 when insurance companies couldn't exclude people with pre-existing conditions. And it dropped in 2014 when people got subsidies to buy insurance. and it dropped (only in states where the politicians didn't cling to a failed ideology) when they expanded Medicaid. If you think the 95 dollar fine for not having coverage in 2014 explains the drop in the uninsured rate then you should drive where I drive. The fine for speeding doesn't stop people from speeding.

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Why do you cling to the reasons you prefer and discount the reasons you don't like? And how would you explain the 2013 peak for uninsured?

Re: Uh oh, GOP candidates start offering details of their Obamacare replacements

Vern said:

fletch, I realize your ideology requires you call it an entitlement program but instead of hiding behind labels, tell us whats wrong with it (remembering of course, it was a republican idea). And if you attempt to tell us whats wrong with it, please compare it to the republican plan of "status quo".

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Wait...am I reading this correctly?

Are you now willingly engaging in derailing your own thread? Instead of talking about GOP candidates and their alternatives to Obamacare, you want to talk about Obamacare?

Somehow, I'm not very surprised.