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Are Republicans For Freedom Or White Identity Politics?

Vern said:
don't forget his message about them Mexican rapists and drug dealers. Odd you left that out because it too helped his popularity.
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I doubt that. I don't think what Trump believes or says has anything to do with his popularity. It is his brash condemnation of the government establishment that appeals to republicans.
 
dpcal said:
If I missed statements by Trump in that article, please point them out.
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The idea that America is going to endure the blood and moral outrage over the deportation of 11 million people, including young children of illegals born here who are constitutionally American citizens, is absurd. Even one of the most prominent immigration hawks, Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies, dismissed this mass deportation as impossible on my radio show this week. But Donald Trump has proposed this, and loudly insisted he will do it. And the faction of the country that believes not in freedom but identity politics for white people adores it.
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I just want to point out that the article is not about Trump, though it does single him out. It's more about how the popularity of Trump may be a reflection of the right's turn towards identity politics
 
fmw said:
I doubt that. I don't think what Trump believes or says has anything to do with his popularity. It is his brash condemnation of the government establishment that appeals to republicans.
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that's just it fmw, he shot up in the polls after insulting Mexicans. You can try to pass that off as a coincidence but don't forget, he shot up in the polls in 2012 when he questioned President Obama's BC. You don't have to agree that his "messages" have a racist tone but you have to acknowledge the possibility. And to me that perfectly explains why his insults of McCain and Kelly haven't really hurt him. That "angry white vote" is just so desperate for someone they think gets them. that's why the "pundits" predictions of his demise have yet to materialize.
 
Vern said:
that's just it fmw, he shot up in the polls after insulting Mexicans. You can try to pass that off as a coincidence but don't forget, he shot up in the polls in 2012 when he questioned President Obama's BC. You don't have to agree that his "messages" have a racist tone but you have to acknowledge the possibility. And to me that perfectly explains why his insults of McCain and Kelly haven't really hurt him. That "angry white vote" is just so desperate for someone they think gets them. that's why the "pundits" predictions of his demise have yet to materialize.
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Truthfully, I'm so tired of people blaming things on racism that I don't think of it and don't even accept it. If you understand Trump it seems to me he didn't insult Mexicans. He insulted the Mexican government for emptying some of their prison cells at the U.S. border. He could be wrong about that but it seems obvious that is what he was talking about. we've seen it before. You may recall the Mariel boat lift. He has even said he thinks the Mexican political leadership is smarter than ours.

People tend to color their analyses of things they read and hear to fit their own position. Trump doesn't seem like a racist to me. But he is not a politician either so he speaks from his experience and beliefs rather than to what people want to hear. That is refreshing to some and not to others. Personally none of it really matters to me. I just want to maintain gridlock. I want as little federal government as I can get. Slowing its growth is about all I can hope for.
 
fmw said:
Truthfully, I'm so tired of people blaming things on racism that I don't think of it and don't even accept it. If you understand Trump it seems to me he didn't insult Mexicans. He insulted the Mexican government for emptying some of their prison cells at the U.S. border. He could be wrong about that but it seems obvious that is what he was talking about. we've seen it before. You may recall the Mariel boat lift. He has even said he thinks the Mexican political leadership is smarter than ours.

People tend to color their analyses of things they read and hear to fit their own position. Trump doesn't seem like a racist to me. But he is not a politician either so he speaks from his experience and beliefs rather than to what people want to hear. That is refreshing to some and not to others. Personally none of it really matters to me. I just want to maintain gridlock. I want as little federal government as I can get. Slowing its growth is about all I can hope for.
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The whole liberal "race card" thing is completely devoid of credibility.

It's just a cheap and totally transparent weasel-way of hanging on to a few votes.
 
Vern said:
that's just it fmw, he shot up in the polls after insulting Mexicans. You can try to pass that off as a coincidence but don't forget, he shot up in the polls in 2012 when he questioned President Obama's BC. You don't have to agree that his "messages" have a racist tone but you have to acknowledge the possibility. And to me that perfectly explains why his insults of McCain and Kelly haven't really hurt him. That "angry white vote" is just so desperate for someone they think gets them. that's why the "pundits" predictions of his demise have yet to materialize.
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Trump shot up in the polls as he made it clear that illegal immigration has to stop and that those that are here illegally should be sent back to their own countries. It amazes me that he isn't supported by every low paid worker in this country, as if that occurred (which is highly unlikely at least in terms of sending all that are home), their wages would rise. In California, where 13.2% of K-12 students are children of illegal immigrants (although couldn't tell if some of these were "anchors"), 23% of K-12 students are English second language, I don't know why more parents with K-12 students where funding is short aren't flocking to Trump. But to suggest that's its because of some "racism" suggests a lack of a real argument.

Personally, not sure what to make of the guy yet. If he's serious about his illegal immigration position, and over the course of the election season he seems like he could function independently (as he's not going to be popular with Republican legislators) he might have my vote.
 
dpcal said:
Trump shot up in the polls as he made it clear that illegal immigration has to stop and that those that are here illegally should be sent back to their own countries. It amazes me that he isn't supported by every low paid worker in this country, as if that occurred (which is highly unlikely at least in terms of sending all that are home), their wages would rise. In California, where 13.2% of K-12 students are children of illegal immigrants (although couldn't tell if some of these were "anchors"), 23% of K-12 students are English second language, I don't know why more parents with K-12 students where funding is short aren't flocking to Trump. But to suggest that's its because of some "racism" suggests a lack of a real argument.

Personally, not sure what to make of the guy yet. If he's serious about his illegal immigration position, and over the course of the election season he seems like he could function independently (as he's not going to be popular with Republican legislators) he might have my vote.
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that sounds good except he didn't he drop off after insulting Megan Kelly and McCain. Any normal voter would rethink their position after those classless (and clueless) remarks But the "angry white voter" doesn't care about Kelly or McCain. If there is one group desperate to be pandered to, that's the group. that's why his polls hit 24 % and locked in at the number.

If you're unable to even consider the possibility that calling Mexicans rapists and drug dealers is racist then you need to ask why you are at a debate forum. And don't forget, the last time he shot up in the polls he was questioning President Obama's BC. That narrative was racist in nature.
 
Vern said:
that sounds good except he didn't he drop off after insulting Megan Kelly and McCain. Any normal voter would rethink their position after those classless (and clueless) remarks But the "angry white voter" doesn't care about Kelly or McCain. If there is one group desperate to be pandered to, that's the group. that's why his polls hit 24 % and locked in at the number.

If you're unable to even consider the possibility that calling Mexicans rapists and drug dealers is racist then you need to ask why you are at a debate forum. And don't forget, the last time he shot up in the polls he was questioning President Obama's BC. That narrative was racist in nature.
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Look if the race card does it for you, its not my problem. There are 50+ million Hispanics in this country... Hispanics are your friends, relatives, colleagues unless maybe you live in some white separatist enclave. Its about the illegals... a strong majority want the illegal immigration to stop and at least send back the recent arrivals. That's what Trump has tapped into as its a given the democrats won't do it and its also clear the republicans are only going to move their lips about it.

Most Voters Want to Send Latest Illegal Immigrants Home ASAP - Rasmussen Reports™
 
dpcal said:
Look if the race card does it for you, its not my problem. There are 50+ million Hispanics in this country... Hispanics are your friends, relatives, colleagues unless maybe you live in some white separatist enclave. Its about the illegals... a strong majority want the illegal immigration to stop and at least send back the recent arrivals. That's what Trump has tapped into as its a given the democrats won't do it and its also clear the republicans are only going to move their lips about it.

Most Voters Want to Send Latest Illegal Immigrants Home ASAP - Rasmussen Reportsâ„¢
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Mmmm, the problem I have with "its a given the democrats won't do it and its also clear the republicans are only going to move their lips about it" is you seem to acknowledge that republicans are only pandering to you about it. That's actually progress. Now do you have any idea why republicans only pander to you about illegal immigration? Of course they want your vote but why do they only pander?
 
Vern said:
that sounds good except he didn't he drop off after insulting Megan Kelly and McCain. Any normal voter would rethink their position after those classless (and clueless) remarks But the "angry white voter" doesn't care about Kelly or McCain. If there is one group desperate to be pandered to, that's the group. that's why his polls hit 24 % and locked in at the number.

If you're unable to even consider the possibility that calling Mexicans rapists and drug dealers is racist then you need to ask why you are at a debate forum. And don't forget, the last time he shot up in the polls he was questioning President Obama's BC. That narrative was racist in nature.
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While I thought it was in poor taste, and a very bad move in terms of his ultimate audience, to respond to Kelly or McCain in the manner he did, there is obviously no great love for McCain. In fact, my wife is from Arizona and a couple days ago had email from her family (all rabid democrats) showing McCain down 9 points to a republican state legislator. I have no feel for Kelly, as the few times I've seen her lips moving before, didn't find it very interesting. However in the debate, she was clearly running her personal agenda on Trump.
 
Vern said:
Mmmm, the problem I have with "its a given the democrats won't do it and its also clear the republicans are only going to move their lips about it" is you seem to acknowledge that republicans are only pandering to you about it. That's actually progress. Now do you have any idea why republicans only pander to you about illegal immigration? Of course they want your vote but why do they only pander?
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Because the republicans are like the democrats. They study the demographics, calculate how to swing the votes they need in key places so they can maximize the political powers... that's what determines what both parties do. All you have to do is look at all democrats lined up on one side of an issue and all republicans lined up on the other to understand it has nothing to do with conscience or commitment. I think its also a given that the republicans take for granted that those who oppose illegal immigration will end up voting for them anyway as it least they make sounds like they think about it. The best part about Trump is going to be watching the absolute chaos in the republican leadership and the other candidates... I can only hope for a Trump like to show up on the democratic side, but won't hold my breath on that one.
 
ballantine said:
I no longer care about the image the party is projecting.

I do not care about image, I care about results!!!

Image is PC. Screw image. We need results, without people voluntary bogging themselves down in fraidy-cat-land 'cause of all the idiotic PC drivel like the fearmongering link in the OP.
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If you care about results, then you need to care about winning a national election. The right has lost the popular vote in 5 of the last 6 of them, and the trend is not getting better.

America is less white, middle class and religious than it was in 2000, to say nothing of 1980. You cannot whip up enough of a frenzy in the trailer parks, mega-churches or AM radio waves to win an electoral battle on a lower-middle class, angry white person platform. You can't. Stop fighting against math.

The first word in "PC" is "politically" - and that is what this forum is really all about. The current GOP coalition sucks - it can carry the House half the time, perhaps the Senate, but is an electoral rump party of the South and the plains states. It loses Presidential elections, and you can shore it up, or wait for the death knell in 2024 or so when Texas turns purple.
 
dpcal said:
Because the republicans are like the democrats. They study the demographics, calculate how to swing the votes they need in key places so they can maximize the political powers... that's what determines what both parties do. All you have to do is look at all democrats lined up on one side of an issue and all republicans lined up on the other to understand it has nothing to do with conscience or commitment. I think its also a given that the republicans take for granted that those who oppose illegal immigration will end up voting for them anyway as it least they make sounds like they think about it. The best part about Trump is going to be watching the absolute chaos in the republican leadership and the other candidates... I can only hope for a Trump like to show up on the democratic side, but won't hold my breath on that one.
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sorry, that doesn't address the fact that you admit that republicans pander to you about immigration. Democrats don't "line up" on one side of an issue because the republicans are on the other. Republicans however have proven repeatedly they will line up on one side of an issue when the democrats are on the other. Sadly, republicans will even line up on the other side even when it used to be their side.

dpcal said:
However in the debate, she was clearly running her personal agenda on Trump.
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Its good you recognize she had an agenda (just like its good you recognize republicans pandering to you about immigration) but it was not her personal agenda. It was fox's agenda. Fox "anchors" do what they're told. We've seen the memo.
 
Somerville said:
You and others may not "think Trump's popularity has anything to do with racism", but at least one guy writing on The Federalist web site thinks it does:


So, yeah. There are some on the right agreeing with the libs that Trump's popularity is based on racism. Comparing Trump and the Black Lives Matter movement is stretching similarities just a wee bit, one is a presidential candidate and the other is a disjointed movement, but still in both cases one can see stands centered on race. For Trump, it is the European-American and for BLM it is the African-American; in both instances they are groups which feel as if they are being ignored by the Establishment.
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I disagree whole heartedly with you and your assessment.

Lets start off with - I do not support Trump in any way or manner. That being said...

"Trump asserts that political correctness is the biggest problem facing the country..." - it is...and I cant see how anyone can say that it is a racist remark of any kind...even stretching the boundaries of the possible it isnt possible.

I also dont see how pointing out the fact that people are here illegally, breaking our laws, using the system and not paying into it, a racist comment either...because it is a fact. A fact that our government is not doing much to stop...in fact they are promoting it.

Its a sad sad day when our own government wont uphold the laws it forces us to live under. Trump is right on those issues and the party of Washington - the Republocrats - only want to give lip service to doing anything about any of these issues.
 
fmw said:
I think they are just sick of main stream politics. I don't think it has anything to do with appropriateness for the job. It is just anger.
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Yes, but anger at what?

IMO, it's anger that they're not getting their way which is indicative of a huge resentment of democracy
 
Camer☑n;1064951046 said:
I for one, have always considered Republicans to play white southern identity politics. Not that Democrats are any better - they are not. Both sides pander like crazy to their respective coalitions, which unfortunately in this country are pretty cleanly divided according to specific racial, age, income and demographic criteria.
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More and more "White Identity" politics are becoming not a pandered group in the GOP...they are becoming the GOP mainstream. Now WIP are becoming the major platforms of the GOP. The different factions in the GOP have been battling each other for leadership and direction.

The Democrats have become a coalition of OTW factions with an overall agenda and specific factional concerns.
 
sangha said:
Yes, but anger at what?

IMO, it's anger that they're not getting their way which is indicative of a huge resentment of democracy
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I agree with the anger for not getting their way. But I think calling it a resentment of democracy is a stretch. It is a resentment of what democracy has wrought.
 
fmw said:
I agree with the anger for not getting their way. But I think calling it a resentment of democracy is a stretch. It is a resentment of what democracy has wrought.
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IMO, that's a difference of no significance.
 
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