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Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?[W:272]

Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Dayton3 said:
Iraq was doable. Low hanging fruit. You can't do everything you want but you can do everything you can.
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Several trillion dollars is "doable"?
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Please do not try to pull a Jeb and argue it is disrespectful to our men and women who gave their lives to question the decision to go into Iraq. I sincerely believe our military personnel did the best they could with what they were given. However, with everything we know now about the costs of the war, the effects of that decision, and the misinformation that we were given, can anyone continue to defend that decision?
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I can defend it base on the information they had then. That "gotcha" question, "knowing what we know now" is useless. Every single president or presidential candidate could have that question posed to them in a way to make it seem like the decision made at the time was wrong or stupid. "Say, Hillary, knowing what you know now, would you have handled Benghazi differently?" "Say, Obama, knowing what you know now, would you have signed Obamacare?"

Of course, Dems will never be required to play that stupid game.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Dayton3 said:
What I teach my students:

The U.S. invaded Iraq due to the following reasons:

1) Belief that Iraq was constructing WMDs (later for the most part proven false, but the belief was there).
2) Iraq support for terrorists who had killed Americans (but not related to 9-11)
3) Iraqs continued opposition to U.S . interests in the regions and threats to U.S. allies.
4) Iraqs horrendous abuse of their own citizens.
5) Iraqs continued resistance to the terms of the cease fire agreement they had signed to end the 1991 War.
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So...we went to war with a Middle Eastern country that behaves like most other middle eastern countries
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

X Factor said:
I can defend it base on the information they had then. That "gotcha" question, "knowing what we know now" is useless. Every single president or presidential candidate could have that question posed to them in a way to make it seem like the decision made at the time was wrong or stupid. "Say, Hillary, knowing what you know now, would you have handled Benghazi differently?" "Say, Obama, knowing what you know now, would you have signed Obamacare?"

Of course, Dems will never be required to play that stupid game.
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I think the Dems will face those questions, but Benghazi and Obamacare pale in comparison to the blunder that is the war in Iraq.

And everyone knows they cherry picked evidence to push their case.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Several trillion dollars is "doable"?
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How much were we spending "containing" Iraq?

A University of Chicago study back in the middle of the decade determined it was pretty much just as expensive as the invasion and occupation.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Who is Judith Yaphne and what is her evidence?
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An expert on the subject...

but I will give you more....
I am suprised you have no knowledge of this.... it's well-known fact...The thing people usually try to claim is that IRAQ had no ties to AQ...not that they didnt harbor terrorism xD

Report Details Saddam's Terrorist Ties - The New York Sun

If you want to get more into the 600,000 document Pentagon study conducted, go right ahead xD
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
So...we went to war with a Middle Eastern country that behaves like most other middle eastern countries
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Not only that but, Iraq was also among the easiest...

If we could we would take down North Korea in a heartbeat.... but we can't without enormous casualties and political ramifications... Iraq was among the easiest
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

celticwar17 said:
An expert on the subject...

but I will give you more....
I am suprised you have no knowledge of this.... it's well-known fact...The thing people usually try to claim is that IRAQ had no ties to AQ...not that they didnt harbor terrorism xD

Report Details Saddam's Terrorist Ties - The New York Sun

If you want to get more into the 600,000 document Pentagon study conducted, go right ahead xD
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Can you name an Arab country that does not have ties to groups that the US designates as "Palestinian terrorists"?
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Can you name an Arab country that does not have ties to groups that the US designates as "Palestinian terrorists"?
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But you are missing the big picture of my previous comments... this is not the only thing..this is just one aspect, and I said you were wrong that Iraq didnt harbor terrorists and gangsters

Also you obviously choose to ignore the systematic Terrorism and plots Saddam had.... it's all there
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Please do not try to pull a Jeb and argue it is disrespectful to our men and women who gave their lives to question the decision to go into Iraq. I sincerely believe our military personnel did the best they could with what they were given. However, with everything we know now about the costs of the war, the effects of that decision, and the misinformation that we were given, can anyone continue to defend that decision?
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I was against it before the invasion. It was agression, Iraq didn't attack us or one of one of our friends. The Bush administration made it sound as though the threat was imminent. but when you look at the intellience that was available then, Iraq was nowhere close. They sold the American people on the idea so it would put pressure on Congress to vote with them. It worked because the media didn't do their job questioning the aministration, they were cheerleaders.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

celticwar17 said:
Not only that but, Iraq was also among the easiest...

If we could we would take down North Korea in a heartbeat.... but we can't without enormous casualties and political ramifications... Iraq was among the easiest
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So we created an even better breeding ground for terrorists at the expense of trillions and that constitutes "easiest"?
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

celticwar17 said:
But you are missing the big picture of my previous comments... this is not the only thing..this is just one aspect, and I said you were wrong that Iraq didnt harbor terrorists and gangsters

Also you obviously choose to ignore the systematic Terrorism and plots Saddam had.... it's all there
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When you spend trillions of US taxpayers dollars to invade a country you are going to look for any after the fact justification you can find. All they found were that Saddam supported the same groups every other Arabian country does.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

celticwar17 said:
I don't think Iraq was unjust... I think it was poorly executed... with hindsight 20/20, if you knew how poorly we would handle Iraq and the inefficiency of it, then yea of course it was a mistake... but I expected better and still expect better.

If you go to war or have a military objective you have to be all in with clear objectives and plans. Knowing every single possible outcome and have a solution...AND not have your soldiers be charged with murder if they shoot someone they think is a suicide bomber coming for their convoy.
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Indeed. This was the lesson of Viet Nam, correctly applied in Gulf I and Gulf II, but already forgotten by Afghanistan and Iraq.

CRUE CAB said:
Is Saddam dead?
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CriticalThought said:
Probably.
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Most certainly the case that he is. Caught in a spider hole by US troops, he was turned over to the first Iraqi government who conducted a trial and sentenced him to be hanged, which he was.
Saddam was hanged on the first day of Eid ul-Adha, 30 December 2006, despite his wish to be shot (which he felt would be more dignified).[SUP][107][/SUP] The execution was carried out at Camp Justice, an Iraqi army base in Kadhimiya, a neighborhood of northeast Baghdad.
Video of the execution was recorded on a mobile phone and his captors could be heard insulting Saddam. The video was leaked to electronic media and posted on the Internet within hours, becoming the subject of global controversy.[SUP][108][/SUP] It was later claimed by the head guard at the tomb where his body remains that Saddam's body was stabbed six times after the execution.[SUP][109]
[/SUP]
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Saddam Hussein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

X Factor said:
I can defend it base on the information they had then. That "gotcha" question, "knowing what we know now" is useless. Every single president or presidential candidate could have that question posed to them in a way to make it seem like the decision made at the time was wrong or stupid. "Say, Hillary, knowing what you know now, would you have handled Benghazi differently?" "Say, Obama, knowing what you know now, would you have signed Obamacare?"

Of course, Dems will never be required to play that stupid game.
Click to expand...

Witness the biased hand of the main stream media in action.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Please do not try to pull a Jeb and argue it is disrespectful to our men and women who gave their lives to question the decision to go into Iraq. I sincerely believe our military personnel did the best they could with what they were given. However, with everything we know now about the costs of the war, the effects of that decision, and the misinformation that we were given, can anyone continue to defend that decision?
Click to expand...

The only ones defending the decision are those whose side pushed it the hardest. To them, protecting the public perception of their actions in the long view of history takes precedence over matters of right and wrong.

And this is not unusual, for after every war, it's almost de riguer that the leaders and generals (of every side in the war) publish books showing why they were right and how it was the other people who are to blame.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Glen Contrarian said:
The only ones defending the decision are those whose side pushed it the hardest. To them, protecting the public perception of their actions in the long view of history takes precedence over matters of right and wrong.

And this is not unusual, for after every war, it's almost de riguer that the leaders and generals (of every side in the war) publish books showing why they were right and how it was the other people who are to blame.
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Actually not true. Hillary was for it.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Dayton3 said:
1) Belief that Iraq was constructing WMDs (later for the most part proven false, but the belief was there).
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Iran is very likely inching its way to building nuclear weapons. When do we invade?


2) Iraq support for terrorists who had killed Americans (but not related to 9-11)
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Iran has been heavily involved in terrorism for years, including supporting organizations like Hezbollah. When do we invade?


3) Iraqs continued opposition to U.S . interests in the regions and threats to U.S. allies.
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Same for Iran. When do we invade?


4) Iraqs horrendous abuse of their own citizens.
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Same for Iran. When do we invade?

Or is the violation of a cease-fire from an old war the most critical trigger? ;)

While some of what you say is correct, it doesn't really answer the key question: Why then? What happened in 2003? Iraq had been doing the same things for years. There were no indications Hussein or Iraq had started any new WMD programs. They weren't being particularly belligerent to any neighbors or US allies. There were no credible links between Iraq and AQ, even at that time. There was no "Axis of Evil," nor any indications they were working in concert -- especially since Iran and Iraq hate each other. Congress passed a bill (with Clinton signing) to authorize a non-military push for regime change all the way back in 1998.

I have my answer, of course. But what do you tell your students, if they ask that question...?
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?​

1. Seems there are a few pages so far of folks doing just that.
2. You are conflating two separate issues and apparently are not even asking what you actually mean.
a. ) Based on the believed info at the time, was the decision to invade defensible?
b. ) Based on what we know know, had that information been known at the time, was the decision to invade defensible?​
The answer to both the above questions is an unmitigated yes.


CriticalThought said:
but Benghazi and Obamacare pale in comparison to the blunder that is the war in Iraq.
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No. It was not a blunder.
Saddam was removed quite effectively.
Obamacare and Benghazi besides being deceitful bs are the blunders.


CriticalThought said:
And everyone knows they cherry picked evidence to push their case.
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:naughty
No, they did there jobs. That job included making such decisions about, and choosing the information they believed to be most credible.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Please do not try to pull a Jeb and argue it is disrespectful to our men and women who gave their lives to question the decision to go into Iraq. I sincerely believe our military personnel did the best they could with what they were given. However, with everything we know now about the costs of the war, the effects of that decision, and the misinformation that we were given, can anyone continue to defend that decision?
Click to expand...

We had several other reasons aside from WMD to go into Iraq. But had we known that there were no WMD and no real capability to get nukes I doubt if we would have gone in.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CRUE CAB said:
Actually not true. Hillary was for it.
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And as has been pointed out so many times, Hillary - like the rest of the Dems in Congress who voted for the war, were doing so due to the intel that they had been given by the Bush administration...the same information that Colin Powell used in his speech to the UN, and the same information that Bush and company KNEW that was not from reliable intel.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Please do not try to pull a Jeb and argue it is disrespectful to our men and women who gave their lives to question the decision to go into Iraq. I sincerely believe our military personnel did the best they could with what they were given. However, with everything we know now about the costs of the war, the effects of that decision, and the misinformation that we were given, can anyone continue to defend that decision?
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Yes, but why would they bother to?
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Please do not try to pull a Jeb and argue it is disrespectful to our men and women who gave their lives to question the decision to go into Iraq. I sincerely believe our military personnel did the best they could with what they were given. However, with everything we know now about the costs of the war, the effects of that decision, and the misinformation that we were given, can anyone continue to defend that decision?
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Absolutely. The last time we allowed a nation to violate the terms of peace it agreed to, we ended up with Nazi Germany. This time, we ended up with a nation that made Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty Int'l's top dog in human rights violations (had these orgs. existed in 1930, it's almost certain that Nazi Germany would have the top dog). Remember that this was a nation that according to both HRW and AI was killing upwards of 25,000 people a MONTH, was attempting to commit genocide against the Kurds, was oppressing any voice that simply didn't support the Baath gov't strongly enough, was using torture to silence voices. Remember all the hullaballoo about Abu Ghraib? Do you know what it was used for under the Baathists?? It was a torture factory, complete with quotas. It had multiple rape and torture rooms and was one of a wide spread chain of these kind of facilities. How about the environmental impact of the Baathists?? They were draining huge expanses of wetlands for the express purpose of starving out the people who lived there, just because they wanted to be left alone, not actively opposing the Baathists, just because they didn't support them. We can't afford to ignore evil just because the path to stopping that evil is unpopular. There was a time when the Left stood against oppression, but these days, they'd rather set aside that ideal and embrace partisanship in favor of defending the innocent and helpless.
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

X Factor said:
I can defend it base on the information they had then. That "gotcha" question, "knowing what we know now" is useless. Every single president or presidential candidate could have that question posed to them in a way to make it seem like the decision made at the time was wrong or stupid. "Say, Hillary, knowing what you know now, would you have handled Benghazi differently?" "Say, Obama, knowing what you know now, would you have signed Obamacare?"

Of course, Dems will never be required to play that stupid game.
Click to expand...

What information did we have back then that we should attack Iraq? Did they have a nuke ready to unleash it? Remember "But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud?"
 
Re: Is there anyonw left defending the decision to go into Iraq?

CriticalThought said:
Why was it the correct one? Every rationale provided to us was false. Iraq was far from having any tangible weapons of mass destruction. They were not harboring terrorists. You can't argue it is a better, safer place today than it was under Saddam, and nothing we could have done would have resolved the centuries old cultural conflicts in the region. How was it correct?
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It was far better prior to us pulling out and leaving them with nothing to back up the gains we had made. It was only after we left without leaving in place enough training cadre to continue training and personnel development that things fell apart.
 
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