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Forget everything you've heard and decide for YOURSELF!

Which one does Common Sense tell you; is most likely how it is?


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But you do understand that the circumstances you are born into help shape where we go in life? Yes, everyone should take responsibility for the lives but pretending that an adult's socio-economic situation is strictly a result of their work ethic is silly.

I didn't say work ethic, and that's a copout by the left regularly in these discussions. Although that is one of the many factors, it but one of many. What I said was that the choices they make define and guide their current and future environment. They can have a great work ethic, but if they didn't chose to take advantage of their education opportunities, for instance, they will still have a difficult time rising up out of poverty. This is but another of the many factors, but all are as a result of choices just as dropping out of school or taking drugs or committing crimes or a lack of morality and yes, just as work ethic would be as would be a hundred other examples of choices that people make. The only factor that isn't a choice is who their parents are and where they are born. After that, they have choices that can either rise them up, or hold them down. Children of rich parents can make bad choices as well that send them to jail, or addict them to drugs or prevent them from getting an education or make them loose all their money - so it isn't just a socio-economic factor - it's a matter of choices.
 
I agree that there seems like little reason to not have at least a High School diploma and some technical training, but growing up around gangs, violence or lack of employment opportunity is not an easy thing. And many of the children come from dysfunctional and broken up homes. If all you're given as role models are people who consistently make poor choices, you usually end up in very similar situations. Nothing excuses bad behavior, though you can feel empathy and a little compassion for peoples circumstances.

which is why those communities must be changed from within.....with people who have made it out of the system

when you have nearly 70% of all black families with no father figure, that is a social issue...not an economic one

in order to start to make progress, that has to change

their role models (sports stars, and music stars) all have 3-4-5 baby mamas

it doesnt seem like any progress is being made in this area at all.....

and money isnt going to fix this issue
 
which is why those communities must be changed from within.....with people who have made it out of the system

when you have nearly 70% of all black families with no father figure, that is a social issue...not an economic one

in order to start to make progress, that has to change

their role models (sports stars, and music stars) all have 3-4-5 baby mamas

it doesnt seem like any progress is being made in this area at all.....

and money isnt going to fix this issue


That's part of the 'development trap', which is a "pattern" of behaviors and situations which cannot easily be changed. These beliefs become accepted and copied as part of a cultural stigma. It's easy to condemn and pontificate but that doesn't change the dynamics either.
 
Children of rich parents can make bad choices as well that send them to jail, or addict them to drugs or prevent them from getting an education or make them loose all their money - so it isn't just a socio-economic factor - it's a matter of choices.

What do you think happens to the son of a senator after he is caught smoking pot? What happens to the impoverished teenager who gets caught?
 
when you have nearly 70% of all black families with no father figure, that is a social issue...not an economic one

It can be both. Economics can play a big role in a dad's decision whether or not to stick around. Even if the parents were married at one point, money is the biggest cause of divorce.
 
What is your point? Of course they get charged. And mommy/daddy buy a great lawyer who helps get the absolute minimum sentence if even convicted. And then the family will pay for the best rehab facility. Point is, everyone makes mistakes but how much you pay for that mistake often depends on your social standing.

What does that have to do with you claiming my statement in my sig is incorrect? Rich or poor, they make choices, and see the results of those choices. If the rich or poor don't want to see the consequences of those choices - make a different choice. Rich people paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a good attorney, is in and of itself a negative consequence of a bad choice - as is having to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for some expensive rehab program. The consequences may be different, but they are still punitive consequences.

And, it still doesn't have anything to do with my sig, which is where this discussion between us started...
 
It can be both. Economics can play a big role in a dad's decision whether or not to stick around. Even if the parents were married at one point, money is the biggest cause of divorce.


can we deal with them getting together first, before we deal with the divorce rates (which affect all races, and classes)

two people make the child.....but in that community, usually only one raises it, and takes care of it

there seems to be a huge thing against marriage, or even cohabitation in that community (70 to 30 is a crazy ratio)

when 70% of kids grow up in single parent families, there is an issue there

and it is a lot more than a financial issue.....
 
What does that have to do with you claiming my statement in my sig is incorrect? Rich or poor, they make choices, and see the results of those choices.

Except, as I pointed out. Those results are often quite different depending on your socio-economic position.

Rich people paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a good attorney, is in and of itself a negative consequence of a bad choice - as is having to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for some expensive rehab program. The consequences may be different, but they are still punitive consequences.

While the rich man may feel a short term loss of paying more, but he will see long term gains compared to the poor man.
 
can we deal with them getting together first, before we deal with the divorce rates (which affect all races, and classes)

I am only pointing out the reality. Never said anything about strategy.

two people make the child.....but in that community, usually only one raises it, and takes care of it

Yes. And you would have to be blind to say economic issues do not play a role in the stats.

when 70% of kids grow up in single parent families, there is an issue there

That's right --> economics.

I love how right-libertarians think economics are a factor in every single issue... except when it comes to poverty.


and it is a lot more than a financial issue.....

I didn't say its only financial. However, you said it had nothing to do with economics.
 
Today, as the DOW set a new record, I flashed back to my poor beginnings as a child. I Google Earthed my old home. It's a total slum now. We didn't have two nickels to rub together but our house was clean, our yard was mowed and we had some pride.

It was kinda sad to see how downhill it's gone since, well, you know.

I am a living testament that someone can make it from there to here with hard work and a sense of decency.

Living the dream........
 
I am a living testament that someone can make it from there to here with hard work and a sense of decency.

And good fortune. That people continue to refuse to admit that is one of the biggest problems in our society today. It informs the demonization of the poor, especially the urban black poor (which is what this thread is about, demonizing them) and keeps the lower and middle classes fighting each other. Some people don't make the best of the opportunities they have. But some people simply don't have opportunities. The former can't really be fixed until the latter is. In fact, fixing the latter will make a big difference in the former.
 
I am only pointing out the reality. Never said anything about strategy.



Yes. And you would have to be blind to say economic issues do not play a role in the stats.



That's right --> economics.

I love how right-libertarians think economics are a factor in every single issue... except when it comes to poverty.




I didn't say its only financial. However, you said it had nothing to do with economics.


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could this have anything to do with a community that thinks it is normal to have 3, 4, 5 baby mama's

nah....what was i thinking

it is all about economics :lamo
 
Except, as I pointed out. Those results are often quite different depending on your socio-economic position.
So? No one is forcing a person to stay poor. In this country, a person has the freedom to go as high and far as their personal abilities can take them - for those that choose to do so and have the personal ability to do so.



While the rich man may feel a short term loss of paying more, but he will see long term gains compared to the poor man.
The poor man has the freedom to change his position and rise up out of poverty. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of programs available to help them, both public and private. If a poor person wants long term gain, they must choose to do those things that result in long term gain.

There is too much empirical evidence available that poor people can over come poverty to assume different and blame a persons current "socio-economic" position as the root cause, or excuse, for maintaining that position.

Again, see my sig below.
 
And good fortune. That people continue to refuse to admit that is one of the biggest problems in our society today. It informs the demonization of the poor, especially the urban black poor (which is what this thread is about, demonizing them) and keeps the lower and middle classes fighting each other. Some people don't make the best of the opportunities they have. But some people simply don't have opportunities. The former can't really be fixed until the latter is. In fact, fixing the latter will make a big difference in the former.

You make some good points. Opportunity is just that. I have a friend that quit school at 16 and headed to California. Not having a dime to his name, he came across a man refurbishing a boat near the beach. He asked if he could help. Long story short, he was hired to help with the boat. That led to another mundane job to another. Eventually the guy who hired him, became very rich. My friend became a trusted board member and manager of some of the rich guy's businesses. Now he's rich. I have always said, "With luck, **** will do for brains."

But, on the other hand, I do believe people have a LOT to do with their personal success or failure. If one wants to tattoo up their body, or make big holes in your ear lobes or wear their pants on the ground, that's fine. But they should not be surprised at all if the guys in suits, writing the checks, tend to pass over them or do not push them up the ladder.

I believe that ghetto is as ghetto does.

I appreciate good work ethic. I admire persistence and dedication. But, good fortune, is the cat's ass.

Ask any young man, about to get a little in the back seat, if he would rather be lucky or good. Lucky wins every time.

(I might buy a few more lottery tickets than I would like to admit.)
 
And good fortune. That people continue to refuse to admit that is one of the biggest problems in our society today. It informs the demonization of the poor, especially the urban black poor (which is what this thread is about, demonizing them) and keeps the lower and middle classes fighting each other. Some people don't make the best of the opportunities they have. But some people simply don't have opportunities. The former can't really be fixed until the latter is. In fact, fixing the latter will make a big difference in the former.

Opportunity doesn't knock on your door like the old saying goes, and with a smile say "Here, take this and prosper." You have to track it down, run like hell after it, tackle it by the ankles, jump on its back and not let go - however, sometimes you find that the opportunity you thought you were chasing was just a mirage, and if you give up or blame that bad situation as an excuse to not repeat the process (track it down, run like hell after it, tackle it by the ankles, jump on its back and not let go), all you have done is give up and that, is a choice, not a circumstance beyond your control.

What I read you saying, is that opportunity is not available to the poor - or as you defined it as saying they are being demonized here - the poor urban black. In what way are they being prevented from looking for opportunity? In what way are they being restricted from advancement and success? Sure... they may not be able to go to a bank and get a million dollar loan to open a franchise restaurant, or they may not have enough money in the bank to do large things, but... that is not how opportunity is found or how success is gained. It takes small steps. Repeated small steps to go further and further distances. As those steps add up, larger steps can be taken, and at some point, they WILL be able to go get that million dollar loan, or have enough money in the bank to take larger risks.

And, that's one of the words left out of discussions like this - risk. There are no guarantees in life - except here in this country, you are guaranteed the chance to try, to take that risk. To make that choice. Even the urban poor black, that you seem to think cannot.
 
Opportunity doesn't knock on your door like the old saying goes, and with a smile say "Here, take this and prosper." You have to track it down, run like hell after it, tackle it by the ankles, jump on its back and not let go - however, sometimes you find that the opportunity you thought you were chasing was just a mirage, and if you give up or blame that bad situation as an excuse to not repeat the process (track it down, run like hell after it, tackle it by the ankles, jump on its back and not let go), all you have done is give up and that, is a choice, not a circumstance beyond your control.

No one is suggesting that it does. But there are a lot more opportunities for someone who is not born into a poor situation. There are likewise a lot more opportunities for someone who doesn't face racial prejudices against them. Despite what conservative media says, no one is making excuses for people who squander their opportunities. What needs to happen, though, is for chances to make something of oneself to not be so scarce for those born into bad situations.

What I read you saying, is that opportunity is not available to the poor - or as you defined it as saying they are being demonized here - the poor urban black.

These are two different issues, but they reinforce each other in a vicious cycle.

In what way are they being prevented from looking for opportunity? In what way are they being restricted from advancement and success? Sure... they may not be able to go to a bank and get a million dollar loan to open a franchise restaurant, or they may not have enough money in the bank to do large things, but... that is not how opportunity is found or how success is gained. It takes small steps. Repeated small steps to go further and further distances. As those steps add up, larger steps can be taken, and at some point, they WILL be able to go get that million dollar loan, or have enough money in the bank to take larger risks.

If you lack this basic information, then I'm not sure I'll be able to explain it to you. But you are very clearly talking about middle class people here. Not those born into a ghetto like this thread is about.

And, that's one of the words left out of discussions like this - risk. There are no guarantees in life - except here in this country, you are guaranteed the chance to try, to take that risk. To make that choice. Even the urban poor black, that you seem to think cannot.

And what I'm talking about is actually making good on that guarantee for the chance to try. A lot of people don't get it. A lot of people simply have no opportunity. They are doomed from birth because the schools they can go to are underfunded, because there are no businesses to hire them when they graduate, because their families are too poor to even own a car, because they face racial prejudice, because one major illness can wipe out a family's savings if they don't have insurance... many many factors conspire to keep a poor person poor. Many more factors than you or I ever had to face. And if we can help get some of these roadblocks out of people's way, then they will take hold of those chances and will make the most of them.

I believe that ghetto is as ghetto does.

I appreciate good work ethic. I admire persistence and dedication. But, good fortune, is the cat's ass.

Almost everyone in this country has a good work ethic. Almost everyone works very hard. That includes the poor, and that includes urban blacks. They work very hard just to stay at poor and not slip into homeless. The idea that there is a significant portion of the population that doesn't work hard is part of that demonization. Don't believe it. It's a lie.
 
No one is suggesting that it does. But there are a lot more opportunities for someone who is not born into a poor situation. There are likewise a lot more opportunities for someone who doesn't face racial prejudices against them. Despite what conservative media says, no one is making excuses for people who squander their opportunities. What needs to happen, though, is for chances to make something of oneself to not be so scarce for those born into bad situations.
No one is making excuses? You just did right there... right in your own text right before you said that no one is making excuses... Jiminy Cricket man... Seriously?

These are two different issues, but they reinforce each other in a vicious cycle.
Any cycle, vicious or not, is the result of not turning in a different direction. Making different choices.

tumblr_mt5fxakgHu1s9v5qzo1_400.jpg


If you lack this basic information, then I'm not sure I'll be able to explain it to you. But you are very clearly talking about middle class people here. Not those born into a ghetto like this thread is about.
If I believed your position as valid, I would not have posed the questions. If you had real empirical data to share, that was not borne of projection and external blame, I would expect you to provide it. I believe that Lizzie made a very poignant statement in the following post:
They can't change it to the Hamptons, but they don't have to live in slums. Some of the very poorest people in the South keep their homes and neighborhoods clean and neat, and they don't trash it up. Ghetto is as much a state of mind as it is a place.

And what I'm talking about is actually making good on that guarantee for the chance to try.
They have the guarantee to let them try. Guarantee of the ability to try is not the same as a guarantee of success.
A lot of people don't get it.
Everyone is born with the opportunity to try.
A lot of people simply have no opportunity.
They are born with the opportunity to try by the fact of being born in this country. Want to talk about people that have no opportunity, look at most of the other countries of the world, not here.
They are doomed from birth because the schools they can go to are underfunded, ...
Underfunded? Per student funding is more in schools that are Title I schools, and they are the worst of the worse. More money is not the answer. More parental involvement, less crime, more student commitment, and more focus on education and less on sports... is.
... because there are no businesses to hire them when they graduate,
If you graduate with a 6th grade reading level then yeah, it's hard to get a job. If you graduate and dress and talk like a gangster, then yeah, it's hard to get a job. Self imposed cultural barriers are a problem.
... because their families are too poor to even own a car,
What? Public transportation or car pooling - just to name two. Find an answer not an excuse.
... because they face racial prejudice,
Over used and over applied. You probably think that my reference above to dressing and talking like a gangster is racist - it isn't. It's a fact. Professionals that manage a business are not looking for people that project problems. They want people that project success. That dress, talk and project success.
... because one major illness can wipe out a family's savings if they don't have insurance...
Had to throw that one in there... Sure. That's true. How many people have not been successful in escaping the ghetto, or were unsuccessful in transforming their small part of it to a respectable and livable place because of illness? All of them? That can happen to anyone. It also can be overcome, however. Anything can. In fact, I was able to - from the very same circumstances.
... many many factors conspire to keep a poor person poor.
Ahhh. The conspiracy against the poor. (shakes head from side to side and then just sighs)
Many more factors than you or I ever had to face.
You have no idea what I had to face.
And if we can help get some of these roadblocks out of people's way, then they will take hold of those chances and will make the most of them.
Okay, I'll bite. How do we get these roadblocks you describe out of their way?

Almost everyone in this country has a good work ethic. Almost everyone works very hard. That includes the poor, and that includes urban blacks. They work very hard just to stay at poor and not slip into homeless. The idea that there is a significant portion of the population that doesn't work hard is part of that demonization. Don't believe it. It's a lie.

I know that this part was not posed to me, but - I'm not saying that working hard is the problem. The term "hard work" is misunderstood by most Progressives and some liberals. Hard work, in the way that I use it, does not mean sweating and shoveling dirt or some other difficult labor intensive job. What the term hard work means, is taking risks, doing those things that are required to get out of the position you are in and move forward - like getting an education, learning new skills, fighting the temptations of your environment, taking responsibility for your own life, and may other actions that are hard, not easy. That's what hard work is meant by me.
 
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