U.S. business spending plans slumped sharply as debt fight heated up

U.S. business spending plans slumped sharply as debt fight heated up - Yahoo Finance

Well now we know why cons have been instructed to parrot the silly narrative that it was the democrats caused the shutdown and threatened default. Why oh why couldn’t dems just cave to the demands of the republican party when they put a gun to the economy and threatened to shoot.

anyhoo, the “uncertainty” alone should have prevented the republicans from forcing a shutdown. Am I the only one who remembers the “uncertainty hurts business” narrative from 2011 when pubs first threatened to destroy the economy? why do cons think there narratives have a shelf life and cant be used against them?

So we've covered the hypocritical aspect of the republican shutdown. here's the ironic part

"and could give the Federal Reserve more reason to leave its bond-buying stimulus program at full throttle for the rest of 2013"

2.5% APR allows business to divert their revenues into dividends and borrow money to repurchase stock making the rich richer as the value of their investments rise. Thank you Democrats for widening the wealth gap with all that free money.

Vern said:

U.S. business spending plans slumped sharply as debt fight heated up - Yahoo Finance

Well now we know why cons have been instructed to parrot the silly narrative that it was the democrats caused the shutdown and threatened default. Why oh why couldn’t dems just cave to the demands of the republican party when they put a gun to the economy and threatened to shoot.

anyhoo, the “uncertainty” alone should have prevented the republicans from forcing a shutdown. Am I the only one who remembers the “uncertainty hurts business” narrative from 2011 when pubs first threatened to destroy the economy? why do cons think there narratives have a shelf life and cant be used against them?

So we've covered the hypocritical aspect of the republican shutdown. here's the ironic part

"and could give the Federal Reserve more reason to leave its bond-buying stimulus program at full throttle for the rest of 2013"

Click to expand...

The real irony of the thing is that Obama could have avoided shutdown and delayed implementation of ACA and blamed the Republicans. He didn't. With the shutdown he actually outed himself as an incompetent.

joG said:

The real irony of the thing is that Obama could have avoided shutdown and delayed implementation of ACA and blamed the Republicans. He didn't. With the shutdown he actually outed himself as an incompetent.

Click to expand...

you make good point if President Obama was about playing games like republicans. so of course you realize you are criticizing President Obama for not playing games. Anyway, the added uncertainty of a delay would have been worse than the glitches in the federal website. The glitches do detract from the success of the state run websites showing that Obamacare was necessary and beneficial.

and at least your reply was somewhat related to the thread. Who knows what point fisher made or thinks he made. do you remember the “uncertainty hurts business” narrative? and it was fake uncertainty pubs were ‘clamoring’ over. republicans caused real uncertainty with their shutdown and threatened default and it hurt business.

Vern said:

you make good point if President Obama was about playing games like republicans. so of course you realize you are criticizing President Obama for not playing games. Anyway, the added uncertainty of a delay would have been worse than the glitches in the federal website. The glitches do detract from the success of the state run websites showing that Obamacare was necessary and beneficial.

and at least your reply was somewhat related to the thread. Who knows what point fisher made or thinks he made. do you remember the “uncertainty hurts business” narrative? and it was fake uncertainty pubs were ‘clamoring’ over. republicans caused real uncertainty with their shutdown and threatened default and it hurt business.

Click to expand...

I really don't think that is necessarily right. The uncertainty now is much worse, because everyone must see that many more people are angry and want the thing stopped; maybe even for good and certainly till the government has its act together.

And no. Obama's people must have known that many of the promises made were wrong, the law needing correction and the sales platform unready. He was playing Tough Guy and has cost us dearly and created damaged goods with his rush for Top Gun.

joG said:

I really don't think that is necessarily right. The uncertainty now is much worse, because everyone must see that many more people are angry and want the thing stopped; maybe even for good and certainly till the government has its act together.

And no. Obama's people must have known that many of the promises made were wrong, the law needing correction and the sales platform unready. He was playing Tough Guy and has cost us dearly and created damaged goods with his rush for Top Gun.

Click to expand...

so I guess we’re not discussing the actual uncertainty and its detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default? We only discussing Obamacare? Well of course your narrative of “uncertainty” concerning Obamacare has to ignore the successful state exchanges and the actual need for reform to believe that Obamacare must be stopped. And another problem with your narrative is that I need to ignore the previous lying narratives concerning Obamacare such as

“he wants to kill old people”
“ the cost doubled/ we cant afford it”
“he is encouraging seniors to commit suicide” (granted this one never really got any traction)
“its unconstitutional”
“its socialism”

See the problem I’m having? It seems your opinion was predetermined and your side finally has something to say that isn’t based on a lie. And just to be clear, we’re not discussing the actual uncertainty and its detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default?

joG said:

The real irony of the thing is that Obama could have avoided shutdown and delayed implementation of ACA and blamed the Republicans. He didn't. With the shutdown he actually outed himself as an incompetent.

Click to expand...

This is just a silly thing to say. You could also say the Republicans could have avoided the shutdown if they just took Obamacare off the table completely. The simple fact, which both sides hate, is BOTH sides are at fault for the leadup to the shutdown for not coming to an agreement. Both sides were stubborn and both sides are at fault.

Once the shutdown happened, that's where I lay the blame on Obama and the Dems for the things they "shutdown".

TheNextEra said:

This is just a silly thing to say. You could also say the Republicans could have avoided the shutdown if they just took Obamacare off the table completely. The simple fact, which both sides hate, is BOTH sides are at fault for the leadup to the shutdown for not coming to an agreement. Both sides were stubborn and both sides are at fault.

Once the shutdown happened, that's where I lay the blame on Obama and the Dems for the things they "shutdown".

Click to expand...

Well, I for one, hope that neither side ever uses the threat of a shut down and/or default to force the repeal or drastic change of a law. And I credit Obama and the Democrats standing up against Republicans for making that tactic much less likely.

Dezaad said:

Well, I for one, hope that neither side ever uses the threat of a shut down and/or default to force the repeal or drastic change of a law. And I credit Obama and the Democrats standing up against Republicans for making that tactic much less likely.

Click to expand...

Well that is your choice, but given how we have seen ACA roll out, I think the Republicans were right in asking for a 1 year delay. I know their motivations for it were not pure (i.e. they were wanting a delay to hope to kill it later), but they were correct in this instance. The rollout has been a mess and should have been delayed just because of that alone.

TheNextEra said:

Well that is your choice, but given how we have seen ACA roll out, I think the Republicans were right in asking for a 1 year delay. I know their motivations for it were not pure (i.e. they were wanting a delay to hope to kill it later), but they were correct in this instance. The rollout has been a mess and should have been delayed just because of that alone.

Click to expand...

The Republicans can be as right as the day is long about policy and be wrong about tactics. I can never respect for any reason the kind of tactics they employed here. I won't support it for either side, and I believe many people outside of the liberal camp agree that it shouldn't be used. This is a good thing. There comes a point where parties need to let voters decide new policy directions in elections.

By the way, I really don't like Obamacare, a Republican idea.

Vern said:

so I guess we’re not discussing the actual uncertainty and its detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default? We only discussing Obamacare? Well of course your narrative of “uncertainty” concerning Obamacare has to ignore the successful state exchanges and the actual need for reform to believe that Obamacare must be stopped. And another problem with your narrative is that I need to ignore the previous lying narratives concerning Obamacare such as

“he wants to kill old people”
“ the cost doubled/ we cant afford it”
“he is encouraging seniors to commit suicide” (granted this one never really got any traction)
“its unconstitutional”
“its socialism”

See the problem I’m having? It seems your opinion was predetermined and your side finally has something to say that isn’t based on a lie. And just to be clear, we’re not discussing the actual uncertainty and its detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default?

Click to expand...

No. The uncertainty was increased by the muck-up. But the real uncertainty is in how much it is going to impact the economy, how and when. The size of cash flow shift is huge. Just think about what it means to suddenly pay 20% of your income as a fixed expense. That reduces your discretion enormously. It does not mean that society will not profit in the long run. But are these families going to stop buying cars, washing machines or bubble gum. That will make a big difference to the guys that make, transport and sell the stuff.

That ACA is being introduced now is stupid to begin with because the economy is slithering along the edge of recession anyway. Government deficits have to come down, which will put an additional break on the economy and increase the probability of recession again. Adding on above type uncertainty and it gets more probable that we crash. To introduce the program in a fashion that implies incompetence increases the uncertainty, as it could mean that enough people get angry and call for it to be cancelled.

TheNextEra said:

This is just a silly thing to say. You could also say the Republicans could have avoided the shutdown if they just took Obamacare off the table completely. The simple fact, which both sides hate, is BOTH sides are at fault for the leadup to the shutdown for not coming to an agreement. Both sides were stubborn and both sides are at fault.

Once the shutdown happened, that's where I lay the blame on Obama and the Dems for the things they "shutdown".

Click to expand...

The introduction at this time is stupid not only because it shows how unprepared an incompetent it is being done. That there would be glitches with a program of that magnitude covering so many pages that no one has read it, is no surprise. But we are near a recession and have to reduce the deficit. This is really bad. A shift of the amount of money involved in ACA at this point would be hard for a healthy economy to take. But under the circumstances it is sheer stupidity and pig headed. I am certainly not republican. But in this case they were dead right.

joG said:

That ACA is being introduced now is stupid to begin with because the economy is slithering along the edge of recession anyway. Government deficits have to come down, which will put an additional break on the economy and increase the probability of recession again. Adding on above type uncertainty and it gets more probable that we crash.

Click to expand...

again, the problem with your concerns is that you are getting them from the same liars who told you (Obamacare related)

“he wants to kill old people”
“ the cost doubled/ we cant afford it”
“he is encouraging seniors to commit suicide”
“its unconstitutional”
“its socialism”

And same liars who told you (non Obamacare related)

“Obama was born in Kenya”
“his BC is fake”
“the dollar will collapse”
“we’ll have hyperinflation”

and on and on. see my problem with your vague and unsubstantiated concerns? they don’t seem to be genuine because you don’t seem to hold the people ‘scaring’ you accountable for their previous lies.

And just so you know, some sources that haven’t lied non stop about President Obama or Obamacare the last 5 years think Obamacare will be beneficial to the economy. Other than Luxemboug, we have the lowest self employment rate in the industrialized economies. And we have the 3rd lowest employment rate in small business. We like to believe that we have some magical “ national spirit of entrepreneurship “ but it seems lack of health care hurts small business start ups.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/small-business-2009-08.pdf

shouldnt your new found concern for the economy take into account the detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default? It is the thread topic.

Vern said:

again, the problem with your concerns is that you are getting them from the same liars who told you (Obamacare related)

“he wants to kill old people”
“ the cost doubled/ we cant afford it”
“he is encouraging seniors to commit suicide”
“its unconstitutional”
“its socialism”

And same liars who told you (non Obamacare related)

“Obama was born in Kenya”
“his BC is fake”
“the dollar will collapse”
“we’ll have hyperinflation”

and on and on. see my problem with your vague and unsubstantiated concerns? they don’t seem to be genuine because you don’t seem to hold the people ‘scaring’ you accountable for their previous lies.

And just so you know, some sources that haven’t lied non stop about President Obama or Obamacare the last 5 years think Obamacare will be beneficial to the economy. Other than Luxemboug, we have the lowest self employment rate in the industrialized economies. And we have the 3rd lowest employment rate in small business. We like to believe that we have some magical “ national spirit of entrepreneurship “ but it seems lack of health care hurts small business start ups.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/small-business-2009-08.pdf

shouldnt your new found concern for the economy take into account the detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default? It is the thread topic.

Click to expand...

To tell you the truth, it seems indicative of the discussion that you would imply I might think that Obama wants to kill old folks. That make you sound as if you did not want to argue so much as make noise.

joG said:

To tell you the truth, it seems indicative of the discussion that you would imply I might think that Obama wants to kill old folks. That make you sound as if you did not want to argue so much as make noise.

Click to expand...

and there it is again, a con pretends not to understand my clear and straightforward post. I never implied that you believed “obama wants to kill old people”. I just question the veracity of your beliefs because you are getting them from the same liars who propagated utterly ridiculous lies in the past. And the umbrage you take that I dared suggest you believe such nonsense (when I didn’t) means that you agree it was an utterly ridiculous lie. So why do you continue to get your info from the liars who told you “president Obama wants to kill old people”?

wait, you’re not pretending not to understand and feigning disgust because even with your newfound concern for the economy you cant address the detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default, are you? It is the thread topic.

Vern said:

and there it is again, a con pretends not to understand my clear and straightforward post. I never implied that you believed “obama wants to kill old people”. I just question the veracity of your beliefs because you are getting them from the same liars who propagated utterly ridiculous lies in the past. And the umbrage you take that I dared suggest you believe such nonsense (when I didn’t) means that you agree it was an utterly ridiculous lie. So why do you continue to get your info from the liars who told you “president Obama wants to kill old people”?

wait, you’re not pretending not to understand and feigning disgust because even with your newfound concern for the economy you cant address the detrimental effects on the economy caused by the republican shutdown and threatened default, are you? It is the thread topic.

Click to expand...

Oh come off it. You had inserted the quotes and not me.
-And yes, CNBC, BBC, NYT and the Washington Post have gone somewhat cool on ACA and its competence to solve the problems with healthcare.
-And no, the economy is an important reason of such magnitude to delay ACA being implemented that it must seem an breathtaking irresponsibility to go ahead at this time.
-And yes, it seems to make sense to take a relatively small hit to GDP in trying to prevent the size risk that an immediate implementation of ACA implies.

joG said:

Oh come off it. You had inserted the quotes and not me.
-And yes, CNBC, BBC, NYT and the Washington Post have gone somewhat cool on ACA and its competence to solve the problems with healthcare.
-And no, the economy is an important reason of such magnitude to delay ACA being implemented that it must seem an breathtaking irresponsibility to go ahead at this time.
-And yes, it seems to make sense to take a relatively small hit to GDP in trying to prevent the size risk that an immediate implementation of ACA implies.

Click to expand...

wow, you are still pretending not to understand the purpose of the lying quotes. Amazeballs. But at least you give credit to republicans for the shutdown. Can you quantify the hit to the economy Obamacare will cause. (and I'm not looking for your opinion. I'm looking for some reputable link).

Vern said:

wow, you are still pretending not to understand the purpose of the lying quotes. Amazeballs. But at least you give credit to republicans for the shutdown. Can you quantify the hit to the economy Obamacare will cause. (and I'm not looking for your opinion. I'm looking for some reputable link).

Click to expand...

Nobody can quantify the effects without a rather large impact study. This is especially the case, because they will be very different over time and very possibly will affect the economy negatively for a while and then positively. I have not looked at such a study. But for a while I did such studies for social and economic policy effects. So I can not be totally certain of the number but can tell a problem, when it crosses the stage. And this one is a whopper.

It is clad in Thousands of pages of legalese, affects everybody in the country and means a redirection of maybe as much as 20% of income. And it is being installed in a hurry. Anyone who is complacent is a nut.

joG said:

Nobody can quantify the effects without a rather large impact study. ............It is clad in Thousands of pages of legalese, affects everybody in the country and means a redirection of maybe as much as 20% of income. And it is being installed in a hurry. Anyone who is complacent is a nut.

Click to expand...

blah blah blah

jog, I do get such a chuckle out your posts. You pretend over and over not to understand the point of the lying quotes I posted and claim over and over that Obamacare will hurt the economy. I asked to back up your claim and I specifically stated “I’m not looking for your opinion” and guess what you did. you posted your silly opinion. Double Amazeballs.

I thought this was a debate forum not a fantasy forum. But since you think it’s a fantasy forum then I’ll pretend that Obamacare will unlock the entrepreneurial spirit in America so much so that it will cause create an economy that makes Clinton’s economy look like Bush’s. (wow, just posting anything that popped into my head as fact was fun. no wonder cons do it all the time).

"it is being installed in a hurry" is hysterical as it is delusional. But then again, you do think its a fantasy forum.

Vern said:

blah blah blah

jog, I do get such a chuckle out your posts. You pretend over and over not to understand the point of the lying quotes I posted and claim over and over that Obamacare will hurt the economy. I asked to back up your claim and I specifically stated “I’m not looking for your opinion” and guess what you did. you posted your silly opinion. Double Amazeballs.

I thought this was a debate forum not a fantasy forum. But since you think it’s a fantasy forum then I’ll pretend that Obamacare will unlock the entrepreneurial spirit in America so much so that it will cause create an economy that makes Clinton’s economy look like Bush’s. (wow, just posting anything that popped into my head as fact was fun. no wonder cons do it all the time).

"it is being installed in a hurry" is hysterical as it is delusional. But then again, you do think its a fantasy forum.

Click to expand...

I did back it up, for anyone with even a very scant knowledge of socio-economic research and the impacts of social policy and projects. But, of course, one does need those basic requirements to get a hold on the consequences of a major economic shift entailing massive funds and risks. I often cannot believe how irresponsibly people will demand action whose consequences they obviously do not know and refuse to look into.

And believe me. This is coming from someone who thinks general health insurance is a good idea.

joG said:

I did back it up, for anyone with even a very scant knowledge of socio-economic research and the impacts of social policy and projects. But, of course, one does need those basic requirements to get a hold on the consequences of a major economic shift entailing massive funds and risks.

Click to expand...

see you did it again. You repeated your assertion. You’ve backed nothing up. the help you need I cant provide.

joG said:

I often cannot believe how irresponsibly people will demand action whose consequences they obviously do not know and refuse to look into.

Click to expand...

so, you can only repeat your assertions and pretend not to understand the point of me listing the numerous lying republican narratives but at least you are finally addressing the thread topic of the republican shutdown and threatened default. But I think pubs knew that their threatened shutdown would hurt the economy, they just have no integrity. As for the ignornant base that was literally cheering for the default, that’s just ignorant. dangerously ignorant. But as I’ve proven (using the Jog method of proof), pubs have no integrity.

Vern said:

....As for the ignornant base that was literally cheering for the default, that’s just ignorant. dangerously ignorant. ...

Click to expand...

And to think, that you did not look at the socio/economic course of impacts and their probable severity under the present conditions of the US and world economy? Now that is a very honest admission.

joG said:

And to think, that you did not look at the socio/economic course of impacts and their probable severity under the present conditions of the US and world economy? Now that is a very honest admission.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you said. Please clarify. If its about your unsubstantiated but repeated opinion concerning the detrimental effects of Obamacare, no need.

Vern said:

I have no idea what you said. Please clarify. If its about your unsubstantiated but repeated opinion concerning the detrimental effects of Obamacare, no need.

Click to expand...

What should I say? If you do not see the situational socio-economic implications ACA in contrast to the equilibrium impact? That is all I was talking about.

joG said:

What should I say? If you do not see the situational socio-economic implications ACA in contrast to the equilibrium impact? That is all I was talking about.

Click to expand...

see how you are purposely vague. I was talking about the republican shutdown and threatened default. And my post was clear about the ignorant base of republicans literally cheering on the default. But strangely you reponded with this which made no sense in the context of my post

"And to think, that you did not look at the socio/economic course of impacts and their probable severity under the present conditions of the US and world economy? Now that is a very honest admission. "

No where in that statement would one assume you were referencing the ACA instead of the republican shutdown and threatened the default (it is the thread topic). You even quoted my statement which was addressing the threatened default and its "socio/economic course of impacts and their probable severity under the present conditions of the US and world economy". I asked you to clarify your purposely vague and obfuscating repsonse but as a person who deals with cons alot I suspected you were still hung up on your unsubstantiated but oft repeated claims of the detrimental effects of Obamacare. And I said, if its about your unsubstantiated but oft repeated claims then dont bother. And strangely, you not only bothered but you put alot of effort into trying to sound intelligent. A for effort. F for content (specifically the lack thereof)

so, do you think you could be clear and specific about any of your points and then substantiate them (its what I do) or do you think your use of big words counts as something?