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Humiliated Republicans Lash Out at Each Other

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MaggieD said:
I disagree that it was a humiliating defeat.

That aside, the fact that, if Obamacare ends up a mess, Republicans can say, "We tried...," will work to their advantage at the polls.
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And if it ends up being a success, the GOP will take credit for it.
 
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clownboy said:
No, Harry Reid holds that option off the table. He would not even allow such a bill to come close to the floor. And that last is rank hyperbole.
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Yes, yes, still fighting the lost battle, I see. You're like that German ex-soldier in "The Producers" who thinks he can revive the Third Reich by writing a Broadway musical about it.

What's wonderful is that the tea party is going to continue to keep their humiliating defeat alive by continuing to pretend that it wasn't self-inflicted.
 
MaggieD said:
I think you gave this antic far too much power.
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I disagree that is was just an antic.
I agree with Fareed's take that it was a threat to our ( the USA's ) democray.

Fareed's take on his Sunday GPS show Oct. 6,2013 explained that the Government Shutdown and by the House was



extortion, not democracy.
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He also went on to explain that

If Democrats had threatened to shut down the government to force the repeal of the Bush tax cuts or defund the Iraq War, I would have hoped Bush would have also been uncompromising.
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From this article:


That is what is at stake in Washington this week. The debate going on there
is not trivial, not transitory – and not about Obamacare. Whatever you think about the Affordable Care Act, it is a law that was passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate, then signed by the president, and then validated by the Supreme Court as constitutional.

This does not mean it cannot be repealed. Of course it can be repealed, as can most laws. But to do so, it would need another piece of legislation – one that says quite simply “The Affordable Care Act is hereby repealed in its entirety” – that passes the House and Senate and is then signed into law by the president.

But what cannot be allowed to stand is the notion that if a group of legislators cannot convince a majority in both houses and the president to agree with them, they will shut down the government or threaten to default until they can get their way. That is extortion, not democracy.

I would be happy to see President Barack Obama compromise on the budget, taxes, spending – even health care. But he cannot compromise on the principle that the rules of democracy must be respected, whatever the outcome.

If Democrats had threatened to shut down the government to force the repeal of the Bush tax cuts or defund the Iraq War, I would have hoped Bush would have also been uncompromising.
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How to solve the crisis in Washington – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs
 
minnie616 said:
is not trivial, not transitory – and not about Obamacare. Whatever you think about the Affordable Care Act, it is a law that was passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate, then signed by the president, and then validated by the Supreme Court as constitutional.
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Which doesn't mean the legislature can never address the issue again. These people calling it "unconstitutional, criminal, and the end of democracy" are just as hyperbolic as the morons on the right. This type of exploitation of the workings of the system happens in every other parliamentarian system, even our own. Just look at the filibuster


This does not mean it cannot be repealed. Of course it can be repealed, as can most laws. But to do so, it would need another piece of legislation – one that says quite simply “The Affordable Care Act is hereby repealed in its entirety” – that passes the House and Senate and is then signed into law by the president.
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This is exactly what was being attempted


But what cannot be allowed to stand is the notion that if a group of legislators cannot convince a majority in both houses and the president to agree with them, they will shut down the government or threaten to default until they can get their way. That is extortion, not democracy.
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See the crumbling of various coalition governments from Canada, the UK, and Israel

PS citing some chowder-faced talking head isn't evidence of something
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Which doesn't mean the legislature can never address the issue again. These people calling it "unconstitutional, criminal, and the end of democracy" are just as hyperbolic as the morons on the right. This type of exploitation of the workings of the system happens in every other parliamentarian system, even our own. Just look at the filibuster




This is exactly what was being attempted




See the crumbling of various coalition governments from Canada, the UK, and Israel

PS citing some chowder-faced talking head isn't evidence of something
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No political party in the US has ever brought the country to the brink of default in order to gut a law they didn't have the votes to repeal by regular order. Nobody was that reckless and irresponsible, until now.

That's simply a fact. All the rationalization in the world won't change that. The Tea Party is an odious extremist group who put their bizarre ideological fetish ahead of basic decency and common sense.
 
head of joaquin said:
No political party in the US has ever brought the country to the brink of default in order to gut a law they didn't have the votes to repeal by regular order. Nobody was that reckless and irresponsible, until now.
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Hey, you won't get me arguing against the idea that their motive was stupid and the means that they used were better left to something with more merit. But it's simply an extension of the systems I mentioned above

The Tea Party is an odious extremist group who put their bizarre ideological fetish ahead of basic decency and common sense.
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I agree and there is plenty of ammo to attack them for over this. But using such exploitation are how parliamentary systems function, especially for the party in the minority.
 
head of joaquin said:
No political party in the US has ever brought the country to the brink of default in order to gut a law they didn't have the votes to repeal by regular order. Nobody was that reckless and irresponsible, until now.

That's simply a fact. All the rationalization in the world won't change that. The Tea Party is an odious extremist group who put their bizarre ideological fetish ahead of basic decency and common sense.
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Tip O'Neill shut the government down 12 times and one was over a dispute over a congress pay rise so don't your dare hand me you sanctimonious bull crap
 
trfjr said:
Tip O'Neill shut the government down 12 times and one was over a dispute over a congress pay rise so don't your dare hand me you sanctimonious bull crap
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Debt ceiling/shut down the government. Google the difference. Report back in.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Hey, you won't get me arguing against the idea that their motive was stupid and the means that they used were better left to something with more merit. But it's simply an extension of the systems I mentioned above

I agree and there is plenty of ammo to attack them for over this. But using such exploitation are how parliamentary systems function, especially for the party in the minority.
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Since the attempt was unprecedented, something is different and it wasn't the system. It was the reckless nature of the tea party.

In any case, it very much appears that you're praising the tea party's bullying with faint damnation. I don't think they deserve anything but utter contempt.
 
head of joaquin said:
Debt ceiling/shut down the government. Google the difference. Report back in.
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a shut down is a shut down a drowning is a drowning it doesn't matter if it happened in a swimming pool or the ocean you are still freaken dead
 
head of joaquin said:
Since the attempt was unprecedented, something is different and it wasn't the system. It was the reckless nature of the tea party.
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It's clearly not something that happens everyday, but it was something well within their power to do

In any case, it very much appears that you're praising the tea party's bullying with faint damnation.
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If you want to read it that way, it's fine, but I'm unsure how anyone can take what I am saying as praise. It's like me pointing out someone is well within their rights to scream "nigger" on the corner, that doesn't amount to me approving of their message, method, or actions. Only that they are behaving in a manner that is more than within their bounds to do so

I don't think they deserve anything but utter contempt.
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I agree, but it isn't because they tried to exploit the inner workings of a parliamentary system.
 
trfjr said:
no the public will remember the ones who stood up and tried to save them from the train wreck of Obama care
its going to be a year long train wreck
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Well a forlorn hope is better than no hope at all. Keep the Faith Baby! :peace

Course the Republican'ts could have avoided getting a good old fashion ass whipping by simply voicing their objections and letting the ACA go into affect, like the AWB in Clinton's day.

If the TPs and CONs are sooooo sure the ACA is a train wreck then let it happen for a year. That will be the perfect vote getter.

Now they are going to form a circular firing squad and blaze away... :lamo
 
minnie616 said:
I disagree that is was just an antic.
I agree with Fareed's take that it was a threat to our ( the USA's ) democray.

Fareed's take on his Sunday GPS show Oct. 6,2013 explained that the Government Shutdown and by the House was




He also went on to explain that

From this article:




How to solve the crisis in Washington – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs
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Interesting post. I don't necessarily disagree with it. Throughout history, if we delved deeper, I think we'd find any number of such antics by our esteemed congressmen. They knew they had no power. They knew they'd have to capitulate . . . they just thought the bad press would go in a different direction than it did.

They were wrong.
 
head of joaquin said:
No actually it's not. Holding the economy hostage because you can't get the votes to repeal a law you don't like isn't equivalent to standing on principle and stopping the hostage takers.
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Look, I really appreciate you continuing to prove my point, but I think that's good enough. You've already proven my point, there's no need to overdo it now. Seriously, feel free to stop any time. :lol:
 
MaggieD said:
Interesting post. I don't necessarily disagree with it. Throughout history, if we delved deeper, I think we'd find any number of such antics by our esteemed congressmen. They knew they had no power. They knew they'd have to capitulate . . . they just thought the bad press would go in a different direction than it did.

They were wrong.
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I also thought Fareed's take was interesting and no matter the differences between political parties we need to protect our
Democracy and protect the process.

I will always remember how gracious and what a gentleman President George W Bush was when he welcomed Obama
and Obama's family into the White House as the newly elected President.
 
minnie616 said:
I also thought Fareed's take was interesting and no matter the differences between political parties we need to protect our
Democracy and protect the process.

I will always remember how gracious and what a gentleman President George W Bush was when he welcomed Obama
and Obama's family into the White House as the newly elected President.
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Please, explain how that amounted to a threat to democracy. As moronic as the means and goal was, it was still elected officials pursuing legislative change that they were mandated by their constituents to actively seek. You and I finding it unimportant, moronic, and totally counter productive in it's method is irrelevant to that.
 
the_recruit said:
Look, I really appreciate you continuing to prove my point, but I think that's good enough. You've already proven my point, there's no need to overdo it now. Seriously, feel free to stop any time. :lol:
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Wow, a poor attempt at the Reverso-Meme.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Please, explain how that amounted to a threat to democracy. As moronic as the means and goal was, it was still elected officials pursuing legislative change that they were mandated by their constituents to actively seek. You and I finding it unimportant, moronic, and totally counter productive in it's method is irrelevant to that.
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Pick me, I'll explain.

If the tea party lunatics had prevailed, it would mean that either the House or the Senate or the President could hold the normal operations of the government hostage anytime they didn't like a law or policy passed or engaged in by the other two branches, and thus force a renegotiation of every settled law, every government policy, every time the debt ceiling was reached. It would have meant the end of democratic government as we know it (where the losing party gracefully accepts that there are consequences to elections and they have to wait to the next one before they get their turn to change laws or policies without the agreement of the other). Instead it would have meant that Senate, House and President would be in constant conflict whenever one of them was in the minority, leading inevitably to a default in one of the games of chicken.
 
head of joaquin said:
Pick me, I'll explain.

If the tea party lunatics had prevailed, it would mean that either the House or the Senate or the President could hold the normal operations of the government hostage anytime they didn't like a law or policy passed or engaged in by the other two branches, and thus force a renegotiation of every settled law, every government policy, every time the debt ceiling was reached.
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Yes, but they didn't prevail because they lacked the necessary public support, and ultimately only hurt their long term interests. So the system worked, tea party and gop interests will only be further eroded, and they are unlikely to try such a maneuver again in the future.


It would have meant the end of democratic government as we know it (where the losing party gracefully accepts that there are consequences to elections and they have to wait to the next one before they get their turn to change laws or policies without the agreement of the other).
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But that isn't how parliamentary democracies work. They are heavily dependent on political maneuvering, deal making, influence peddling, etc. If such measures were implamented for something you found fundamentally important to you, and essential to the "american experience" (like fighting an attempt to impose a state religion), I'm sure you would have no issue with such measures

It's just this political group, and their constituents, is comprised of morons and so see the ACA as that level of threat.
 
head of joaquin said:
Man, you're desperate at this point, but I sort of feel sorry for conservatives. They actually thought the could destroy the US economy.

It was a heady delusion while it lasted.
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you know i am a TRUMP VOTER,why you might ask,the dems had both houses and the white house for two years and what did they do,the same thing the republicans did when they had white house and congress ,spend spend spend.
the same old tired crap from both parties,and now the left of the democratic party and the right of the republican can not seem to get over their creation of DONALD TRUMP,the people have had enough of both parties ,TRUMP is here because of the DNC and the RNC lying bs
,the people will speak in November and it will be TRUMP.

run don run


run don run
 
SHOOTER said:
you know i am a TRUMP VOTER,why you might ask,the dems had both houses and the white house for two years and what did they do,the same thing the republicans did when they had white house and congress ,spend spend spend.
the same old tired crap from both parties,and now the left of the democratic party and the right of the republican can not seem to get over their creation of DONALD TRUMP,the people have had enough of both parties ,TRUMP is here because of the DNC and the RNC lying bs
,the people will speak in November and it will be TRUMP.

run don run


run don run
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Get comfortable. You'll be waiting awhile for him to reply.
 
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