• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

W:1083,1531:2983:3137]******Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

eohrn, this is real simple. stop posting random fact that don't back up your claim that " Barney said 'I think F&F should increase their subprime activities'". And eorhn, if you think F&F posed a systemic risk then you must be mad that:

Bush stopped the reform you think would have magically stopped the Bush mortgage bubble
The republican congress let bush stop the reform you think would have magically stopped the Bush mortgage bubble
Bush didn't listen to barney when he said Bush's policies would put people into homes they cant afford


Again eohrn, you don't back up your silly narratives and you ignore the facts I post. See how I respond directly to what you post. You should ask yourself why you have to cowardly deflect from the facts I post.

More ad hominem. <*sigh*> I wonder if you can even post anymore without including it. What say you try?

Funny. I'm not seeing any substantiation to those bolded items of yours.

Bottom line is that both parties screwed up, and screwed up badly, and both warrant their fair share of blame.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

More ad hominem. <*sigh*> I wonder if you can even post anymore without including it. What say you try?

Funny. I'm not seeing any substantiation to those bolded items of yours.

Bottom line is that both parties screwed up, and screwed up badly, and both warrant their fair share of blame.

Wow. For a Conservative, if that wasn't a total admission of guilt then I don't know what is. Conservatives rarely "share" anything no less "the blame".
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Wow. For a Conservative, if that wasn't a total admission of guilt then I don't know what is. Conservatives rarely "share" anything no less "the blame".

I don't see where it's anything of a 'total admission of guilt', and it has very little to do with either being conservative, liberal, libertarian, or anything else.

It has everything to do with being honest.

The honest truth is that there were many people that started down this path many administrations and many congressional sessions ago. And even though the office of president passed between both parties, as did the majority of either and both houses of congress, and even then, there's the private sector and business leaders within that private sector that also had a hand in setting the initial condition that created the path traveled to growth of the toxic mortgage bubble and it's eventual bursting.

Many academicians, economists, and many other learned have called it a Systemic Failure.
Systemic:
System-wide: affecting or relating to a group or system (such as a body, economy, or market) as a whole, instead of its individual members or parts. Not to be confused with 'systematic' which means 'methodical.'

What is systemic? definition and meaning

By it's very definition, there's not a single person, single business, single organization or single party that can be held responsible for the entirety of a systemic failure, a failure of an entire system comprising of many of each of the listed entities.

So, what have our leaders (and I use the term loosely) done to prevent similar future systemic failures?

Dodd-Frank? That's a joke. A cruel joke. A cruel joke played on the entire nation.

Yes, part of the problem is that are banks that are too big to fail and a source of systemic risk, essentially holding the rest of the economy hostage should they gamble poorly, lose, and get into financial difficulty (exactly what happened and exactly what will recur if there are no changes to mitigate this repeating pattern).

The counter balance to these large banks is many more smaller and independent banks. That's just common sense.

What has Dodd-Frank done? It's increased the regulatory expense incurred by every bank resulting in, and having driven, ever greater consolidation of smaller banks into ever larger ones that can afford the regulatory expenses incurred by Dodd-Frank. Increasing regulatory compliance costs forces a consolidation into larger and larger banks that can more easily afford those compliance expenses, that too is just common sense. Too bad it's common sense that eluded the legislators that wrote Dodd-Frank. Or, more accurately, the legislators that out sourced the writing of the Dodd-Frank regulations to the large bank lobbyists.

So that'd be a complete sell-out of the entire nation to the large bank lobbyists as just as it would be a legitimate accusation of alleged leadership and alleged statesmanship as it would be of alleged public service.

Am I still pissed? You bet.

I'm even more pissed that legitimate and effective controls haven't been put into place to prevent it from happening again, and especially pissed that all the legislation claimed by the professional political elite to address and mitigate future such bubbles doesn't accomplish this in the least. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the professional political elite profit from such bubbles and don't want to mitigate future ones.

Now, just to be clear, the above statements are not partisan in the least. Makes me wonder why so many can't manage anything but partisanship when there's so much more and so much more important things than mere partisanship and political parties at risk.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

I don't see where it's anything of a 'total admission of guilt', and it has very little to do with either being conservative, liberal, libertarian, or anything else.

It has everything to do with being honest.

The honest truth is that there were many people that started down this path many administrations and many congressional sessions ago. And even though the office of president passed between both parties, as did the majority of either and both houses of congress, and even then, there's the private sector and business leaders within that private sector that also had a hand in setting the initial condition that created the path traveled to growth of the toxic mortgage bubble and it's eventual bursting.

Many academicians, economists, and many other learned have called it a Systemic Failure.


By it's very definition, there's not a single person, single business, single organization or single party that can be held responsible for the entirety of a systemic failure, a failure of an entire system comprising of many of each of the listed entities.

So, what have our leaders (and I use the term loosely) done to prevent similar future systemic failures?

Dodd-Frank? That's a joke. A cruel joke. A cruel joke played on the entire nation.

Yes, part of the problem is that are banks that are too big to fail and a source of systemic risk, essentially holding the rest of the economy hostage should they gamble poorly, lose, and get into financial difficulty (exactly what happened and exactly what will recur if there are no changes to mitigate this repeating pattern).

The counter balance to these large banks is many more smaller and independent banks. That's just common sense.

What has Dodd-Frank done? It's increased the regulatory expense incurred by every bank resulting in, and having driven, ever greater consolidation of smaller banks into ever larger ones that can afford the regulatory expenses incurred by Dodd-Frank. Increasing regulatory compliance costs forces a consolidation into larger and larger banks that can more easily afford those compliance expenses, that too is just common sense. Too bad it's common sense that eluded the legislators that wrote Dodd-Frank. Or, more accurately, the legislators that out sourced the writing of the Dodd-Frank regulations to the large bank lobbyists.

So that'd be a complete sell-out of the entire nation to the large bank lobbyists as just as it would be a legitimate accusation of alleged leadership and alleged statesmanship as it would be of alleged public service.

Am I still pissed? You bet.

I'm even more pissed that legitimate and effective controls haven't been put into place to prevent it from happening again, and especially pissed that all the legislation claimed by the professional political elite to address and mitigate future such bubbles doesn't accomplish this in the least. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the professional political elite profit from such bubbles and don't want to mitigate future ones.

Now, just to be clear, the above statements are not partisan in the least. Makes me wonder why so many can't manage anything but partisanship when there's so much more and so much more important things than mere partisanship and political parties at risk.

Greetings, Erik: :2wave:

Well said! :thumbs: The only thing I can offer as an explanation is that a few of us are apparently going to live forever, so they have no worries, while the rest of us will be left to pay the bills, pick up the pieces, and try again. Unfortunately, the story about Humpty Dumpty showed us that when things get that bad, the only thing that should be done when something cannot be repaired is to try doing the correct and fair thing for everyone for a change! We ain't there yet, I guess.... :thumbdown:
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act, and Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 (2005; 109th Congress S. 190) - GovTrack.us) is sponsored by: #325 Sen. John McCain, (R-AZ), Armed Services, & Commerce, Science, & Transportation
“If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.”

Why did this legislation not pass? It may have averted the disaster, or at least blunted it.

Yes, Republicans in congress during 2005, when Republicans were in the majority, also get their share of the blame.

first this is funny "Yes, Republicans in congress during 2005, when Republicans were in the majority, also get their share of the blame" Why could you just say "republicans controlled congress in 2005"? And eorhn, I don't see where you backed up " Barney said 'I think F&F should increase their subprime activities'". See how you happily skip to the narrative without acknowledging that your previous narratives blew up in your face. As far as S190, you can blame bush for that too.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

More ad hominem. <*sigh*> I wonder if you can even post anymore without including it. What say you try?

Funny. I'm not seeing any substantiation to those bolded items of yours.

Bottom line is that both parties screwed up, and screwed up badly, and both warrant their fair share of blame.

this post is sad on so many levels. When you whine about me that's ad hominem. I'm pointing you ignore the facts I post. You just cant keep posting what you post without ignoring the facts I post. You posted your" Barney said 'I think F&F should increase their subprime activities" after I showed you Barney criticizing Bush's housing policies and you've yet to acknowledge Bush told barney there was nothing wrong with Freddie and fannie. But you got nothng so that's what you post.

As far as backing up the bolded, I've backed it up through out the thread. Now I'll the post location where you can find it but we both know it will do no good.

Bush stopped the reform you think would have magically stopped the Bush mortgage bubble POST 21
The republican congress let bush stop the reform you think would have magically stopped the Bush mortgage bubble POST 21
Bush didn't listen to barney when he said Bush's policies would put people into homes they cant afford POST 1008

now post 1008 is special because I posted that in reply to you. that's where you learned Barney told bush his policies would put people into homes they couldn't afford and you learned about the WSJ editorial from Larry Lindsey, an economic advisor to Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush that Barney argued that we needed tighter rules that intentionally produce fewer homeowners and more renters. I think that's where you started your claim that " Barney said 'I think F&F should increase their subprime activities'". speaking of which, you haven't backed that up yet. I back up what I post. You simply what you post.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Greetings, Erik: :2wave:

Well said! :thumbs: The only thing I can offer as an explanation is that a few of us are apparently going to live forever, so they have no worries, while the rest of us will be left to pay the bills, pick up the pieces, and try again. Unfortunately, the story about Humpty Dumpty showed us that when things get that bad, the only thing that should be done when something cannot be repaired is to try doing the correct and fair thing for everyone for a change! We ain't there yet, I guess.... :thumbdown:

good ole polgara, the one person echo chamber. Don't worry, while the republicans were blaming everybody else for their Humpty Dumpty policies, the democrats passed Dodd Frank so there will never be another Bush Mortgage Bubble. It requires banks verify that the borrower' ability to repay the loan. Why do you have to put that into law? because they didn't when Bush was president.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

eohrn, you just don't get to post these longwinded soliloquies bemoaning the "honest truth" when you refuse to acknowledge the facts I post. And your "word fort of woe" is just more empty and false rhetoric. Shocking I know.
So, what have our leaders (and I use the term loosely) done to prevent similar future systemic failures?

Dodd-Frank? That's a joke. A cruel joke. A cruel joke played on the entire nation.

That's a joke. A cruel joke. A cruel joke played on the entire nation. Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy: he hath borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! my gorge rims at it.

If I could interrupt your soliloquy, since you refuse to acknowledge the cause of the Bush Mortgage Bubble, you don't understand the significance of Dodd Frank. The key measure is banks have to verify the borrowers ability to repay the loan. yea, they had to make that a law because 50% of the loans in 2006 didn't check the borrowers ability to repay the loan. Bush's regulators could stopped them but they were cheering them on so Dodd frank prevents another incompetent president from destroying the economy.

To regulate or not to regulate, that is the question. Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Contrary to some people's fixation on blaming Bush, seems that this particular bill died a quite common death.

The Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 is currently being cited as McCain's attempt to stop the current crisis and its death was at the hands of the democrats.

There's a couple things potentially wrong with that. First of all, McCain was merely a co-sponsor. Hagel was the primary backer of the bill. Second, the bill went to the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs in 2005. That would be the 109th Congress. At the time, the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs was controlled by the GOP. Richard Shelby (Alabama R) was the chairman and Paul S. Sarbanes was the ranking member. You may remember him from the Sarbanes-Oxley act. The GOP had a two person majority over the Democrats.

Now, I have a vague idea of what happens in these committees and all I can find on its last happening is this:

Jul 28, 2005: Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs. Ordered to be reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute favorably.

So who killed the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005?
Was it the Democratic minority? Was it the Republican majority? Was it a majority of bipartisan? Was it a few members of one party joining the other to kill it? Who has information on this?

S. 190 [109th]: Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 (GovTrack.us)
Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs - Congresspedia

At the end of each legislative session all bills for which were up for consideration are retired. There's an entire thread discussing this.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archi...-enterprise-regulatory-reform-act-2005-a.html

Could imagine if this wasn't practice, how backlogged congress would become with old bills from previous legislative sessions?
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

good ole polgara, the one person echo chamber. Don't worry, while the republicans were blaming everybody else for their Humpty Dumpty policies, the democrats passed Dodd Frank so there will never be another Bush Mortgage Bubble. It requires banks verify that the borrower' ability to repay the loan. Why do you have to put that into law? because they didn't when Bush was president.

Greetings, Vern. :2wave:

C'mon, Vern. You know what I was trying to say in my post. When Barney Frank admits he made a mistake, I tend to listen to him. When banking rules are no longer followed, we can expect chaos, which is what we got. When home buyers no longer had to prove they even had a job, but were okayed to buy a $300,000 house, they were set up to fail - and fail they did. I felt sorry for them at the time, and I still do. How disappointing to be told the equivalent of "c'est la guerre," or "it can't be helped,"when reality set in! How many of those formerly nice homes were not cared for because the low-income buyers could not afford to make the payments or even maintain the upkeep required on them? How many of them are still being carried on many bank's books because they can't get rid of them? There's a reason why Fannie and Freddy had to be rescued by the government bailout they got - they would have gone bankrupt otherwise.

BTW, insults don't work with me. This was not a "Bush mortgage bubble." Barney Frank worked for the Clinton administration, not the Bush one, and he defended Clinton's decision to make the home ownership dream available to everyone as long as he could, even as it became obvious it was failing. Loyalty is admirable, but it didn't help those caught in the "home ownership for everyone" trap. The people of this Country lost that round - both the home buyers who lost their homes, and the taxpayers who have to pay the bill for the bailout - as Barney now admits, to his credit!
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Greetings, Vern. :2wave:

C'mon, Vern. You know what I was trying to say in my post. When Barney Frank admits he made a mistake, I tend to listen to him. When banking rules are no longer followed, we can expect chaos, which is what we got. When home buyers no longer had to prove they even had a job, but were okayed to buy a $300,000 house, they were set up to fail - and fail they did. I felt sorry for them at the time, and I still do. How disappointing to be told the equivalent of "c'est la guerre," or "it can't be helped,"when reality set in! How many of those formerly nice homes were not cared for because the low-income buyers could not afford to make the payments or even maintain the upkeep required on them? How many of them are still being carried on many bank's books because they can't get rid of them? There's a reason why Fannie and Freddy had to be rescued by the government bailout they got - they would have gone bankrupt otherwise.

BTW, insults don't work with me. This was not a "Bush mortgage bubble." Barney Frank worked for the Clinton administration, not the Bush one, and he defended Clinton's decision to make the home ownership dream available to everyone as long as he could, even as it became obvious it was failing. Loyalty is admirable, but it didn't help those caught in the "home ownership for everyone" trap. The people of this Country lost that round - both the home buyers who lost their homes, and the taxpayers who have to pay the bill for the bailout - as Barney now admits, to his credit!

when did barney admit a mistake (about the Bush Mortgage Bubble I'm guessing)? And "Bush Mortgage Bubble" is not an insult. You're simply whining at that statement. At least eohrn is trying to find some magic phrase or sentence fragment to dispute it. But the fact is the problems started late 2004. yea, Bush was president for 4 years. That alone by all conservative standards makes it the Bush Mortgage Bubble. I even started a thread about how President Obama is responsible for the massive Bush Deficits but Bush isn't responsible for something that started 4 years into his presidency. And you don't get to claim it started sooner because even Bush tells you it started late 2004. It's in the very first post.

And polgara, the fact that Bush's policies and regulation created the Bush Mortgage Bubble is just a bonus by conservative standards. But Bush's policies and regulation meet my standards.

Aka Con Con 14


I cant help but notice that in their attempt to blame President Obama for everything he inherited, conservatives (and conservative like posters) ignore the collapsed economy with GDP cratering at -8.2%, 700,000 job losses a month, UE shooting up like a rocket, the financial and housing sector in ruins soon to be followed by the automotive industry, a credit freeze that zero rates was unable to fix, trillion dollar deficits because of collapsed revenue, a market that had already collapsed 40% on its way to 50% but a crisis that manifested itself in late 2006 was Clinton’s fault.

Wow, 6 years into Bush’s presidency, the MBS markets collapsed due to "dramatically lower lending standards starting late 2004" and it’s not Bush’s fault. Now to be fair, some cons (and con like posters) say Bush gets “some” blame. How magnanimous of them. Mmmm, I don’t recall such magnanimous gestures when cons (and con like posters) were claiming “bush tried to stop it” or “ its all Barney Frank’s fault" or "CRA CRA CRA." I only recall such gestures after I posted the Bush’s policies that caused it.

So even if we pretend that Clinton had something to do with the Bush Mortgage Bubble, by all conservative (and conservative like poster) standards, its all Bush’s fault starting 1/20/2001.

and you need to revisit that "Frank worked for the Clinton admin" narrative.
 
Last edited:
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

when did barney admit a mistake (about the Bush Mortgage Bubble I'm guessing)? And "Bush Mortgage Bubble" is not an insult. You're simply whining at that statement. At least eohrn is trying to find some magic phrase or sentence fragment to dispute it. But the fact is the problems started late 2004. yea, Bush was president for 4 years. That alone by all conservative standards makes it the Bush Mortgage Bubble. I even started a thread about how President Obama is responsible for the massive Bush Deficits but Bush isn't responsible for something that started 4 years into his presidency. And you don't get to claim it started sooner because even Bush tells you it started late 2004. It's in the very first post.

And polgara, the fact that Bush's policies and regulation created the Bush Mortgage Bubble is just a bonus by conservative standards. But Bush's policies and regulation meet my standards.



and you need to revisit that "Frank worked for the Clinton admin" narrative.

Some people are so blinded by partisanship that nothing is going to ever change their mind and you are one of those people. You see the end results but not the cause. You see people talking about the bubble in the 90's and yet still insist it was the Bush bubble. You see Greenspan lowering interest rates, the Credit swaps, the dot.com bubble bursting and still blame Bush. You ignore the existence of a bubble in the 90's, ignore all the articles about the bubble NONE of which blame Bush for creating the bubble and still post the liberal leftwing radical narrative. Everything was all Bush's fault even before Bush took office. That shows you have no credibility.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

I will not engage with as dishonest a poster as your self, Vern.

I point to your cherry picking only supporting points to your position, and ignoring / dismissing out of hand any opposing contribution, regardless of how legitimate it is.

That's your dishonesty Vern, and I elect not to participate with you because of it.

since you are clearly referencing me shredding your Bush Mortgage Bubble posts, I'll reply to there. Eorhn, posting Bush's working group telling you the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004 is not cherry picking. Its called "posting a solid and reputable link". Then actually posting mortgage data that shows exactly what Bush's Working Group says is literally the opposite of cherry picking. And eohrn, when you post an editorial such as "chilling ultimatum from 1994" I don't dismiss out of hand. I dismiss it because you cant point out what the "chilling ultimatum" was in a factual manner and how it relates to "dramatically lower lending standatrds starting late 2004 (10 years later) and how it prevented Bush's regulators from doing their job. You're literally posting an editorial and saying "this says what I want to believe even though I cant document it or explain it.

And eorhn, I've addressed your posts. You avoid mine when I disprove what you're saying.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

since you are clearly referencing me shredding your Bush Mortgage Bubble posts, I'll reply to there. Eorhn, posting Bush's working group telling you the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004 is not cherry picking. Its called "posting a solid and reputable link". Then actually posting mortgage data that shows exactly what Bush's Working Group says is literally the opposite of cherry picking. And eohrn, when you post an editorial such as "chilling ultimatum from 1994" I don't dismiss out of hand. I dismiss it because you cant point out what the "chilling ultimatum" was in a factual manner and how it relates to "dramatically lower lending standatrds starting late 2004 (10 years later) and how it prevented Bush's regulators from doing their job. You're literally posting an editorial and saying "this says what I want to believe even though I cant document it or explain it.

And eorhn, I've addressed your posts. You avoid mine when I disprove what you're saying.

Picking a single event as the sole cause for what was the failure of a large and complex system with many interactions, interrelationships and many actors is not credible.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Picking a single event as the sole cause for what was the failure of a large and complex system with many interactions, interrelationships and many actors is not credible.

mmmm, some might call you "misparaphrasing" the stream of Bush policies I've posted as a single event dishonest. Some might call you ignoring the facts I've posted dishonest. But me not agreeing with your "many actors" narrative doesn't make me dishonest. You could not post one thing relevant to the fact of "dramatically lower lending standards starting late 2004" or Bush's regulators not doing their jobs.

Just in case you still don't understand "many actors" is just your opinion. An opinion that requires you to ignore the actual facts. (again some might call that dishonest)
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

mmmm, some might call you "misparaphrasing" the stream of Bush policies I've posted as a single event dishonest. Some might call you ignoring the facts I've posted dishonest. But me not agreeing with your "many actors" narrative doesn't make me dishonest. You could not post one thing relevant to the fact of "dramatically lower lending standards starting late 2004" or Bush's regulators not doing their jobs.

Just in case you still don't understand "many actors" is just your opinion. An opinion that requires you to ignore the actual facts. (again some might call that dishonest)

This has been covered many multiple of times in this thread, yet you continue to refuse to acknowledge that they had an active part of the confluence of events that in the end resulted in creating the set of conditions that formed the mortgage bubble and eventually led to it's popping and the resulting financial collapse.

From the top of the supply chain.

  • Had the greedy and unscrupulous mortgage originators NOT injected the toxic NINJA mortgages into the system
  • Had banks NOT purchased those toxic mortgages
  • Had the investment banks NOT packaged and 'trauchned' those toxic mortgages
  • Had the investment rating agencies NOT rated these 'investments' as class A but rather a real representation of their risk
  • Had the investment banks NOT used CDSs to 'cover' the risks of these toxic mortgages
  • Had the investment banks not offered those toxic mortgages as some sort of investments
  • Had the investment banks NOT gone world wide selling these 'investments'
  • Had the unwise public NOT started using their houses as ATMs for free withdraw of cash and losing their equity
  • Had the unwise public NOT started the whole 'flipping' of houses

Had any one or more of these things not happened or not been done, likely there wouldn't have been a popping of the mortgage bubble resulting in the financial collapse.

Of course your refusal to acknowledge this value chain existing and operating, injecting every more toxic assets into the financial system, and / or your refusal to acknowledge that this value chain and the many parties that participated in it, and instead just blaming Bush, is pretty much cherry picking and tunnel vision to blame whom you want to blame driven by ideological blindness.

I'm not saying that Bush doesn't need to should his part of the blame, he does, as does congress for them not acting and shutting this value chain down before the collapse hit, as well as the regulators at the time.

Another way to look at this.

The current financial crisis has sharpened interest–on the part of both the public and policymakers–in both stronger regulation and the extension of regulation to new areas. One of the theories for doing so is concern that the failure of one institution can, by passing its losses to others, create systemic risk. In this analysis, the current crisis is presented as an example of systemic risk becoming reality. To prevent a recurrence, greater regulation, covering a wider range of participants in the financial markets, is necessary. However, there is as yet no evidence that the current crisis was the result of systemic risk, which is characterized by a kind of contagion. Instead, the crisis appears to have arisen from the failure of traditional regulated institutions–in a particularly dramatic case of herd behavior–to limit their risk-taking.
https://www.aei.org/publication/systemic-risk-and-the-financial-crisis/

So may be systemic risk, maybe not. If it is, or was, what part of systemic is a single person or single action?

So a "failure of traditional regulated institutions" to properly manage their risk. What part of 'institutions' is a single person or single action?

Blaming it all on Bush is cherry picking and tunnel vision to blame whom you want to blame driven by ideological blindness.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

mmmm, some might call you "misparaphrasing" the stream of Bush policies I've posted as a single event dishonest. Some might call you ignoring the facts I've posted dishonest. But me not agreeing with your "many actors" narrative doesn't make me dishonest. You could not post one thing relevant to the fact of "dramatically lower lending standards starting late 2004" or Bush's regulators not doing their jobs.

Just in case you still don't understand "many actors" is just your opinion. An opinion that requires you to ignore the actual facts. (again some might call that dishonest)

"Many actors" is more than just one opinion, a single actor is simply yours. The actual facts are the bubble was created long before Bush took office and burst during his term in office thus all the blame is your ignoring what led to that bubble in the first place. The single actor theory(Bush) only comes from partisans like you with blinders on and the liberal ideology of never accepting responsibility for anything
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Picking a single event as the sole cause for what was the failure of a large and complex system with many interactions, interrelationships and many actors is not credible.

Ignorance is not an excuse for obfuscation. The experts who understand these things know what happened, and they told us.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

"Many actors" is more than just one opinion, a single actor is simply yours. The actual facts are the bubble was created long before Bush took office and burst during his term in office thus all the blame is your ignoring what led to that bubble in the first place. The single actor theory(Bush) only comes from partisans like you with blinders on and the liberal ideology of never accepting responsibility for anything

there it is again. You're ignoring Bush's working group telling you the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004. If the actual facts show the bubble was created before Bush took office you would be able to post these facts to dispute Bush's working group and the mortgage data that shows the "dramatically lower lending standards starting late 2004". But you don't post these facts and yet you call me dishonest. Sadly its just another example of conservatives projecting their delusions on others.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

And there you have it:

A good leader takes responsibility for his actions.

Greenspan's anti-regulation advice may have been bad, but President Bush 2 is the one who chose to act on it to blindly dissolve lending standards.

You can blame advisors, or blame the creation of the US dollar, or the great depression- ultimately, President Bush 2's actions were directly responsible. That's what his own working group found. Loans made 2003 and earlier didn't suffer foreclosure rates anywhere near what those in the 2004-2008 range suffered.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Ignorance is not an excuse for obfuscation. The experts who understand these things know what happened, and they told us.

Yes, they did and yet you ignored it which is what partisans always do. Remember your post, ignorance is not an excuse and crosses party lines
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

there it is again. You're ignoring Bush's working group telling you the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004. If the actual facts show the bubble was created before Bush took office you would be able to post these facts to dispute Bush's working group and the mortgage data that shows the "dramatically lower lending standards starting late 2004". But you don't post these facts and yet you call me dishonest. Sadly its just another example of conservatives projecting their delusions on others.

Bush's working group did NOT say that Bush policies STARTED the bubble and like most liberals you change words to satisfy your partisanship
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Yes, they did and yet you ignored it which is what partisans always do. Remember your post, ignorance is not an excuse and crosses party lines

How ironic. You are the one ignoring the clear conclusion of President Bush 2's own working group.
 
Re: Bush Mortgage Bubble FAQs[W:1083,1531]

Bush's working group did NOT say that Bush policies STARTED the bubble and like most liberals you change words to satisfy your partisanship

and there's the lying Conservative response. I didn't say Bush's working group blamed bush's policies. Bush's working group did say the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004. That proves its Bush's fault by conservative standards. Bush's policies prove it's Bush's fault by intelligent standards.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom