Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22 p/h

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Lutherf said:

We have seen productivity rise because of technology but that DOES NOT mean that labor is now worth more. What has happened is that the job market for unskilled labor has retracted in manufacturing and increased in service industries. Skilled labor is still in high demand but that is generally not effected by minimum wage.

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I think you might be devalueing the productivity of the average worker. Yes, technology has had a HUGE influence on the rise in production. However, so has the increase in knowledge. That increase has positively effected the efficiencey of labor employees that often times goes very unrecognized.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

So you believe that the rise of profit and productivity has been congruent with the rise of labor cost?

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I believe what I said, and what others above have said, not what someone else thinks I said. The rise in productivity and the rise in profit, which also are not always connected, are not necessarily connected to a rise in productivity of labor.

To argue that workers are entitled to portions of profit that are due to factors other than labor productivity is a stretch.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

I think you might be devalueing the productivity of the average worker. Yes, technology has had a HUGE influence on the rise in production. However, so has the increase in knowledge. That increase has positively effected the efficiencey of labor employees that often times goes very unrecognized.

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And in general the people who operate/maintain/repair the machines that allow huge increases in productivity are well compensated. You just don't need a lot of them compared to how many people you need without the machines.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Heebie Jeebie said:

And in general the people who operate/maintain/repair the machines that allow huge increases in productivity are well compensated. You just don't need a lot of them compared to how many people you need without the machines.

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So, for this I wanted to throw out an example. I realize it can be seen as anticdotal, but as it is a process that I have encountered multiple time, I'm going to use it as a way to illistrate my question. Hopefully you will go with me here

My boyfriend works in the manufacturing facility, of a sign printing shop. There are multiple printers within that facility, that do a multitude of different types of printing. One of those printers is manufactured in Sweden, and the only manual in existence for the maintainence of that machine is not in English. Additionally, the one an only technician in North America, lives 4 states away, and the company would have to pay him hourly for travel, as well as food, boarding and transportation in order to get him here to preform any level of mmaintenance on the machine. Due to the cost of that, my boyfriend, has been put in charge of researching how the machine works, taking it apart at time, trial and error as far as calobrating it and creating from scratch a guide to maintaining the printer.

That all being said, he gets paid the exact same as the person who stands on a line, puts the signs in a box and slaps a label on it. The two jobs could not be more different in regards to complexity, and efficiency, and yet, they are valued the same. Additionally, in the long term, my boyfriend's work will improve time management, efficiency and quality, yet his wages will not increase. Those gains will not be made through technology, but through information gathering and improved communication. It's those types of improvements in productivity that I think Sen. Warren was referring to (granted, crudely, lol).

So from that perspective, my question is, do you see any value in that kind of productivity being rewarded? Set aside the idea of whether or not it should be the government implementing that reward, just in general, do you think that is something that should be monetarily rewarded?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

jimbo said:

I believe what I said, and what others above have said, not what someone else thinks I said. The rise in productivity and the rise in profit, which also are not always connected, are not necessarily connected to a rise in productivity of labor.

To argue that workers are entitled to portions of profit that are due to factors other than labor productivity is a stretch.

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I apologize if you thought I was accussing you of something! That was not at all the intention, I was merely looking for clarification to ensure I understood you properly. I did not and I appreciate you explaining further.

I would also point out, that I did not argue, nor would I, that workers are entitled to portion of profit that are due to factors of then labor productivity. That's a bit of a miss interpretation of my post. I would only argue that worker may be entitled to the portion of profits generated by their increase in productivity. There is something to be said for the value of knowledge, experience and the ability to communicate that over time to improve efficiency. From my perspective, I think those things have effected productivity as well as technology.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

I think you might be devalueing the productivity of the average worker. Yes, technology has had a HUGE influence on the rise in production. However, so has the increase in knowledge. That increase has positively effected the efficiencey of labor employees that often times goes very unrecognized.

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The increase in knowledge is all relative. 20 years ago someone that was proficient with basic computer skills was much more valuable than someone with that same skill set today. Now it's expected that everyone will be able to function effectively in a windows based environment and learning the ins and outs of a particular program.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Lutherf said:

The increase in knowledge is all relative. 20 years ago someone that was proficient with basic computer skills was much more valuable than someone with that same skill set today. Now it's expected that everyone will be able to function effectively in a windows based environment and learning the ins and outs of a particular program.

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Fair enough. Along those lines, would you say then that an employee with that windows base of knowledge, should retain a higher value then and employee lacking that knowledge? My point being, that workers are expected to have a higher base of knowledge then even just 10 years ago. So then should the value of their employment be higher then it was 10 years ago?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

Fair enough. Along those lines, would you say then that an employee with that windows base of knowledge, should retain a higher value then and employee lacking that knowledge? My point being, that workers are expected to have a higher base of knowledge then even just 10 years ago. So then should the value of their employment be higher then it was 10 years ago?

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No. It's a base requirement that you're looking at so it doesn't have any more value.

20 years ago if I was looking for an administrative assistant the requirements would have been communication skills, logical thought process in scheduling, the ability to capably take dictation and write necessary correspondence, and basic office management skills. Someone who was proficient with Word Perfect and Lotus123 at that point would have had a leg up. Today those skills are expected and don't increase that employees desirability. Now, to really increase ones value in that position, the ability to edit a web page, manage distribution lists and proof presentations is what is going to give that person a leg up.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

I apologize if you thought I was accussing you of something! That was not at all the intention, I was merely looking for clarification to ensure I understood you properly. I did not and I appreciate you explaining further.

I would also point out, that I did not argue, nor would I, that workers are entitled to portion of profit that are due to factors of then labor productivity. That's a bit of a miss interpretation of my post. I would only argue that worker may be entitled to the portion of profits generated by their increase in productivity. There is something to be said for the value of knowledge, experience and the ability to communicate that over time to improve efficiency. From my perspective, I think those things have effected productivity as well as technology.

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Sorry for the snippiness. Often when someone starts a post with so you believe, they are often attempting to misconstrue someone's words. Part of the problem is I do not understand what you mean by congruent in this context.

At any rate, technology has a twofold effect on labor. Take, as an example a miner. Years ago, it took a lot of manpower to fill a truck. Today, the trucks are much larger, and are filled with mechanical scoops large enough to fill them in one scoop, eliminating much of the manpower requirements. At the same time, the operator of the scoop needs to be far more knowledgeable than the person on the handle of a shovel and is paid accordingly for his knowledge and skills. What this does to labor is reduce the need for unskilled labor, and less demand means less value. Unfortunately this trend will continue, and the gap between unskilled and highly skilled will increase. The minimum wage does not affect the skilled, only those at the very bottom. And, the higher the non market determined pay, i.e., the minimum wage, for non skilled, the more alternatives will be found.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Lutherf said:

No. It's a base requirement that you're looking at so it doesn't have any more value.

20 years ago if I was looking for an administrative assistant the requirements would have been communication skills, logical thought process in scheduling, the ability to capably take dictation and write necessary correspondence, and basic office management skills. Someone who was proficient with Word Perfect and Lotus123 at that point would have had a leg up. Today those skills are expected and don't increase that employees desirability. Now, to really increase ones value in that position, the ability to edit a web page, manage distribution lists and proof presentations is what is going to give that person a leg up.

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OK, I will go with you on that, and totally agree. However, continuing with that example, I would make another point. Obiously the productivity of that same position today, would be substantially increased over the years. Granted, yes, that technological evolution of the posistion. However, is there not an increase in the value of the person, who learns to take that technology and use it more efficiently then a counterpart who may not take the inititive to do so?

I'm hoping that makes sense, lol. I am trying very hard not to divert from this singular topic :mrgreen:

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

tessaesque said:

Explain to me how the fast food industry (about $117 billion a year in sales) is supposed to function when the guy layering the meat, lettuce, and cheese into your taco shell is making $22 an hour?

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The same way it functions in Switzerland, Luxembourg and the like.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

TheDemSocialist said:

[/COLOR][/FONT]

Read more and video @: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn't Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22 p/h - Americans Against the Tea Party

Cant "raise the minimum wage" my ass. I have a sudden feeling that all that money isnt going to the workers... I feel like its going to the CEO's the management that 1%... [FONT=Georgia, serif]Productivity[/FONT] up and wages have remained the same. We have always been told is that in the American dream if you work hard youll make it, youll get paid more. American dream? More like the American myth.
[/INDENT]

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Well Mrs Warren, I would point out that one of the major reasons for downward pressure in wages in this country today is that your party has enthusiastically used its' power to import large numbers of illegal/undocumented/whathaveyou immigrants to whom labor law does not apply, giving American workers a comparative disadvantage.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

jimbo said:

Sorry for the snippiness. Often when someone starts a post with so you believe, they are often attempting to misconstrue someone's words. Part of the problem is I do not understand what you mean by congruent in this context.

At any rate, technology has a twofold effect on labor. Take, as an example a miner. Years ago, it took a lot of manpower to fill a truck. Today, the trucks are much larger, and are filled with mechanical scoops large enough to fill them in one scoop, eliminating much of the manpower requirements. At the same time, the operator of the scoop needs to be far more knowledgeable than the person on the handle of a shovel and is paid accordingly for his knowledge and skills. What this does to labor is reduce the need for unskilled labor, and less demand means less value. Unfortunately this trend will continue, and the gap between unskilled and highly skilled will increase. The minimum wage does not affect the skilled, only those at the very bottom. And, the higher the non market determined pay, i.e., the minimum wage, for non skilled, the more alternatives will be found.

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Don't worry, you weren't snippy!!! I totally didn't articulate my point well at all, lol. That was totally my error in trying to have too many converstations at once, and not taking the time to make sure my point made sense. Whoops! :2razz: What I meant when I said congruent, was if you thought that profit and prouctivity had risen at a similar rate, when compared to wages for labor employees.

While I would agree with you when evaluating skilled and unskilled labor, in the setting of something like a miner. Where I think the analogy breaks down, is when you talk about the minimum wage not effecting skilled works. I think you would be wrong. An unskilled worker, 30-40 years ago, would most likely not have high school diploma. That is not the case today, where much of the work force has that level of education, and is yet considered unskilled.

I would also submit as an example of the effect on skilled works, my best friend. She has a bachelor's degree in International Relations, with a minor in Latin American Studies. She carried a 3.4GPA through college. She currently works as a checker at a grocery store, for minimum wage. It seems that while your skill level should effect your wage, in reality, it doesn't. The pay fits the job, not the employee these days. I'm not saying raising the minimum wage is the fix for that, but it's definitely a widely under discussed topic when debating the merits of the work force.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

TheDemSocialist said:

[/COLOR][/FONT]

Read more and video @: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn't Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22 p/h - Americans Against the Tea Party

Cant "raise the minimum wage" my ass. I have a sudden feeling that all that money isnt going to the workers... I feel like its going to the CEO's the management that 1%... Productivity up and wages have remained the same. We have always been told is that in the American dream if you work hard youll make it, youll get paid more. American dream? More like the American myth.
[/INDENT]

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Worker productivity is misleading, seeing that she is so educated I'm surprised she misunderstands this, but given that many of these people are far removed from actual production and don't see what helps employees become more productive, it should be expected to a degree.

If a company installs a machine that is ergonomically better and allows the employee to be more efficient, requiring them to endure less strain and work, why should the employee get a raise when it is the machine doing the excess labor?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

mike2810 said:

I don't believe a secretaries for a $400 lawyer are paid min. wage. You would have to provide documention other than you have personal experience of such.

Here is a question for those who want the min wage raised (again).
What should happen to the salaries to those who work more than min. wage when the min wage goes up?

example
employee A makes min wage. and just started working in the field with no prior work experience.
employee B makes $1.00 per hour more than employee A. and has 3 years work experience .

by raising employee A wage without raising employee B, are you not discounting employee B worth?

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My wife was a legal secretary for over 30 years in the "right to work" Virginia. Believe me I have seen it happen. Most of them also supply no benefits, either.

I worked in construction all my life. I see how they exploit low wage workers and thay's why homes built today are pieces of ****, mostly.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

LiberalAvenger said:

My wife was a legal secretary for over 30 years in the "right to work" Virginia. Believe me I have seen it happen. Most of them also supply no benefits, either.

I worked in construction all my life. I see how they exploit low wage workers and thay's why homes built today are pieces of ****, mostly.

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ok, guess I will accept your personal experience.

No care to answer the second part on if min. wage is raised, what should be done for those making slightly above the minimum wage? I see this as nothing but an inflation inducer.

If I was an employee making a few bucks above min. wage, and the employee getting min wage got a raise. I would want my pay raised by that percent. If the employer doesn't, then the employer is saying the min wage person is worth more to them than a person with better skills.

I have stated in other threads. minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage by itself. It was for entry level people in very low skill jobs. Mainly targeting first time workers with no skills.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Lutherf said:

We have seen productivity rise because of technology but that DOES NOT mean that labor is now worth more. What has happened is that the job market for unskilled labor has retracted in manufacturing and increased in service industries. Skilled labor is still in high demand but that is generally not effected by minimum wage.

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I think the game has changed so fundamentally that we need to renegotiate the divvy up.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Wiseone said:

If I made 22 bucks an hour I could work an eight hour day 5 days a work and bring home almost 45 thousand dollars a year. That's crazy for minimum wage, hell that's more than what I made last year in base pay!

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Oh my god, that's unthinkable! 40 hours a week guaranteeing a middle class lifestyle? That's un-American!

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Paschendale said:

Oh my god, that's unthinkable! 40 hours a week guaranteeing a middle class lifestyle? That's un-American!

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40 hours of any kind of work? That is unamerican. You can't make everyone middle-class by simply raising the minimum wage, and you fail to consider that if the yearly minimum wage for an 8 hour work week was nearly 45K what kind of changes that would bring in regards to purchasing power, if you radically inflate the money supply then you're going to radically inflate prices along with it. Its basic inflation.

And let me ask you this as well, do you think minimum wage jobs as they stand now produce the kind of value to be worth 22 bucks an hour? If you as an employee do not justify your salary in terms of what value you give to your employer than there's no reason to keep you employed at all.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

OK, I will go with you on that, and totally agree. However, continuing with that example, I would make another point. Obiously the productivity of that same position today, would be substantially increased over the years. Granted, yes, that technological evolution of the posistion. However, is there not an increase in the value of the person, who learns to take that technology and use it more efficiently then a counterpart who may not take the inititive to do so?

I'm hoping that makes sense, lol. I am trying very hard not to divert from this singular topic :mrgreen:

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Sure.

Even at the ground floor level there are those who perform at higher levels than others. Those are the ones who tend to be capable of taking on additional responsibilities and get promoted.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

cpwill said:

Well Mrs Warren, I would point out that one of the major reasons for downward pressure in wages in this country today is that your party has enthusiastically used its' power to import large numbers of illegal/undocumented/whathaveyou immigrants to whom labor law does not apply, giving American workers a comparative disadvantage.

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And don't forget the supply siders.

Who apparently never thought to apply a supply side solution.

Like going after those supplying them with jobs.

Just a bunch of "deytookrjobs" propaganda.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

What if...? said:

And don't forget the supply siders.

Who apparently never thought to apply a supply side solution.

Like going after those supplying them with jobs.

Just a bunch of "deytookrjobs" propaganda.

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:shrug: I don't know what political universe you are living in, but as far as I'm aware, E-Verify isn't a favored solution of the Demand-siders.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Wiseone said:

40 hours of any kind of work? That is unamerican. You can't make everyone middle-class by simply raising the minimum wage, and you fail to consider that if the yearly minimum wage for an 8 hour work week was nearly 45K what kind of changes that would bring in regards to purchasing power, if you radically inflate the money supply then you're going to radically inflate prices along with it. Its basic inflation.

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That's only a problem if you protect the exorbitant profits and wealth of the top 5% at the expense of everyone else. Otherwise, there's more than enough money to go around.

And let me ask you this as well, do you think minimum wage jobs as they stand now produce the kind of value to be worth 22 bucks an hour? If you as an employee do not justify your salary in terms of what value you give to your employer than there's no reason to keep you employed at all.

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Yes. A full time job is worthy of a middle class lifestyle. Our entire profit-based market system is a pathetic farce, based on principles of people controlling each other and owning each other from tens of thousands of years ago. There is no justification for people hoarding wealth and wielding power over each other for selfish purposes.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Paschendale said:

That's only a problem if you protect the exorbitant profits and wealth of the top 5% at the expense of everyone else. Otherwise, there's more than enough money to go around.

Yes. A full time job is worthy of a middle class lifestyle. Our entire profit-based market system is a pathetic farce, based on principles of people controlling each other and owning each other from tens of thousands of years ago. There is no justification for people hoarding wealth and wielding power over each other for selfish purposes.

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This isn't about exorbitant profits or people hoarding wealth, its about the money supply. If you increase the money supply you will increase prices, so while people may be earning more you will be paying more for goods and services.

If everyone making below 45K suddenly started making that much money what do you think they will do with it? Spend it of course, not all of it but some of it certainly, many will want to do things like purchase new cars or better quality housing for themselves and their family. Perfectly natural do you agree? Now if I'm a car salesman and I see a radical jump in the amount of people wanting to buy cars and the amount of money those people have, with no change to my supply of cars, what am I going to do? I'm going to jack up prices because its only reasonable that I want to make the most money I can, of course competition will have some effect to keep prices down but it will only go so far and with a limited supply of cars to go around I can afford to raise my prices without suffering too much of a loss of business so that I'm actually making less money than before.

Its simple economics.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

cpwill said:

:shrug: I don't know what political universe you are living in, but as far as I'm aware, E-Verify isn't a favored solution of the Demand-siders.

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Well I'm one of those who refuse to curse those who do what anyone in their situation might.

If my kids need food and I need to cross your imaginary line to get it for them, **** your imaginary line.

That said, the only perspective I will.tolerate is a functional one. One that focuses on those who supply.work and pressuring Mexico to address its income disparity.