independent_thinker2002

Actually the run was immediately after the Market Crash. It was a panic. They weren't starving yet. They exaserbated the conditions by panicking and made things worse.

At least we rotate crops now.

__________________
☠☠☠☠☠

I am a Tiki Bar Tarte, you wanna mount Le Penseur Bronze

Harry Guerrilla

Our value of money is based on perception though. At least part of the value.

__________________
Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.- H. L. Mencken

RightinNYC

But it's not as if the perceived value of our dollar vis a vis other world currencies is significantly lower now than in recent years.

__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

dirtpoorchris

I didn't know that. I thought it was more. I wonder exactly what it is in though. (How much of a percentage of ports and shipping needed for California?) and what the percent would be in correlation to business needs instead of general and overall holdings. I'm not sure what the Chinese invest in America. How strategically effective is their investment and control through investment.

__________________



America. God is wearing black.

Harry Guerrilla

Maybe it isn't such a bad idea then. If they dispose of it in a slow way, I don't mind them having less leverage on us in that respect.

__________________
Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.- H. L. Mencken

RightinNYC

Uh....

When the Chinese government buys US public debt, they're not "investing" in any particular type of industry. They're buying US Treasury securities.

__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Ethereal

I think there is a miscommunication of sorts, although it's probably due to my poor explanation. What I'm trying to say is this, the simple maxim of "life, liberty, and property" interpreted as negative rights gives us a clear understanding of the underlying principle guiding the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which, subsequently, may be applied as a litmus test for anything we might need to analyze. Simply because some things (abortion, gay marriage) may prove difficult to decipher even when using this litmus test does not, in my opinion, undermine it as a legal construction.

Yes, I agree with all of that. What I'm trying to say is that not all libertarians hold this view, hence my irksome reply to NCFY. I support Ron Paul and I adhere to a decidedly libertarian viewpoint, but this does not mean I necessarily agree with everything they have to say. I sincerely and honestly doubt that a Ron Paul Presidency could do half the things he claims he wants to do. A President is not a dictator.

I just wanted him in the White House because he will actually bring a strong fiscally conservative influence along with a socially liberal outlook. He would provide a much needed balance to Washington and push us in the right direction, that's all. Furthermore, I would trust libertarians to keep a watchful eye on Dr. Paul were he to get elected far more than I trust these Obamaphiles to do anything. Every time Obama is caught in a bald-faced lie all I hear from them is...

*CRICKET* *CRICKET*

THAT is scary. That's how governments become tyrannical. You wouldn't see any of that nonsense coming from the likes of me, and I'm quite certain that the other libertarian-leaning posters feel the same way. I would put Dr. Paul on blast so fast it would make your head spin. Hell, I'd be the first one to post the article...

Goldenboy219

FRB: H.3 Release--Aggregate Reserves of Depository Institutions--February 12, 2009

U.S. Treasury - Daily Treasury Yield Curve

compare with:

U.S. Treasury - Daily Treasury Yield Curve

Or any other years of your choice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

DATE , TCMNOMY30
1977, 7.75
1978, 8.49
1979, 9.28
1980, 11.27
1981, 13.45
1982, 12.76 > 10% unemployment
1983, 11.18
1984, 12.41
1985, 10.79
1986, 7.78
1987, 8.59
1988, 8.96
1989, 8.45
1990, 8.61
1991, 8.14 > 7.3% unemployment
1992, 7.67
1993, 6.59
1994, 7.37
1995, 6.88
1996, 6.71
1997, 6.61
1998, 5.58
1999, 5.87
2000, 5.94 > 3.8% unemployment
2001, 5.49
2002, 5.43
2003, ND
2004, ND
2005, ND
2006, 4.91
2007, 4.84
2008, 4.28 > 7.2% unemployment while yield lows hit 2.8%

Source
-------------------------------------------------------------------

3 month treasury:

09/16/2008, 0.84
09/17/2008, 0.03
09/18/2008, 0.23
09/19/2008, 0.99
09/22/2008, 1.28
09/23/2008, 0.80
09/24/2008, 0.49
09/25/2008, 0.76
09/26/2008, 0.87
09/29/2008, 0.94
09/30/2008, 0.92
10/01/2008, 0.85
10/02/2008, 0.63
10/03/2008, 0.51
10/06/2008, 0.54
10/07/2008, 0.82
10/08/2008, 0.68
10/09/2008, 0.60
10/10/2008, 0.25
10/13/2008, ND
10/14/2008, 0.34
10/15/2008, 0.22
10/16/2008, 0.46
10/17/2008, 0.83
10/20/2008, 1.24
10/21/2008, 1.10
10/22/2008, 1.05
10/23/2008, 0.98
10/24/2008, 0.89
10/27/2008, 0.84
10/28/2008, 0.77
10/29/2008, 0.62
10/30/2008, 0.41
10/31/2008, 0.46
11/03/2008, 0.49
11/04/2008, 0.48
11/05/2008, 0.40
11/06/2008, 0.32
11/07/2008, 0.31
11/10/2008, 0.29
11/11/2008, ND
11/12/2008, 0.18
11/13/2008, 0.22
11/14/2008, 0.15
11/17/2008, 0.12
11/18/2008, 0.12
11/19/2008, 0.07
11/20/2008, 0.03
11/21/2008, 0.02
11/24/2008, 0.13
11/25/2008, 0.10
11/26/2008, 0.05
11/27/2008, ND
11/28/2008, 0.01
12/01/2008, 0.07
12/02/2008, 0.06
12/03/2008, 0.02
12/04/2008, 0.02
12/05/2008, 0.02
12/08/2008, 0.03
12/09/2008, 0.03
12/10/2008, 0.00 > actually negative
12/11/2008, 0.01
12/12/2008, 0.02
12/15/2008, 0.03
12/16/2008, 0.04
12/17/2008, 0.05
12/18/2008, 0.00 > no.2 low
12/19/2008, 0.02
12/22/2008, 0.01
12/23/2008, 0.02
12/24/2008, 0.00
12/25/2008, ND
12/26/2008, 0.03
12/29/2008, 0.06
12/30/2008, 0.10
12/31/2008, 0.11
01/01/2009, ND
01/02/2009, 0.08
01/05/2009, 0.14
01/06/2009, 0.14
01/07/2009, 0.11
01/08/2009, 0.09
01/09/2009, 0.07
01/12/2009, 0.12
01/13/2009, 0.11
01/14/2009, 0.12
01/15/2009, 0.11
01/16/2009, 0.12
01/19/2009, ND
01/20/2009, 0.13
01/21/2009, 0.11
01/22/2009, 0.10
01/23/2009, 0.11
01/26/2009, 0.14
01/27/2009, 0.13
01/28/2009, 0.19
01/29/2009, 0.23
01/30/2009, 0.24
02/02/2009, 0.27
02/03/2009, 0.32
02/04/2009, 0.30
02/05/2009, 0.29
02/06/2009, 0.28
02/09/2009, 0.32
02/10/2009, 0.31
02/11/2009, 0.30
02/12/2009, 0.29
02/13/2009, 0.29 > getting better
02/16/2009, ND


(In retrospect, the previous low in the 3 month credit auction was in 1929, @0.05)

Compare to:

01/04/1982, 11.87
01/05/1982, 12.20
01/06/1982, 12.16
01/07/1982, 12.17
01/08/1982, 11.98
01/11/1982, 12.49
01/12/1982, 12.52
01/13/1982, 12.70
01/14/1982, 13.17
01/15/1982, 12.74
01/18/1982, 13.41
01/19/1982, 13.13
01/20/1982, 13.51
01/21/1982, 13.65
01/22/1982, 13.63
01/25/1982, 14.06
01/26/1982, 13.65
01/27/1982, 13.40
01/28/1982, 12.84
01/29/1982, 13.08
02/01/1982, 14.77
02/02/1982, 14.49
02/03/1982, 14.64
02/04/1982, 14.38
02/05/1982, 14.63
02/08/1982, 15.04
02/09/1982, 14.91
02/10/1982, 14.88
02/11/1982, 15.06
02/12/1982, ND
02/15/1982, ND
02/16/1982, 15.49
02/17/1982, 15.31 > all time high
02/18/1982, 14.58
02/19/1982, 14.17
02/22/1982, 13.13
02/23/1982, 12.93
02/24/1982, 12.83
02/25/1982, 12.79
02/26/1982, 13.00
03/01/1982, 12.81
03/02/1982, 13.22
03/03/1982, 12.85
03/04/1982, 12.85
03/05/1982, 12.86
03/08/1982, 12.68
03/09/1982, 12.93
03/10/1982, 13.00
03/11/1982, 13.24
03/12/1982, 13.40
03/15/1982, 13.47
03/16/1982, 13.33
03/17/1982, 13.36
03/18/1982, 13.45
03/19/1982, 13.69
03/22/1982, 13.26
03/23/1982, 13.11
03/24/1982, 13.39
03/25/1982, 13.35
03/26/1982, 13.69
03/29/1982, 14.16
03/30/1982, 14.15
03/31/1982, 13.99
04/01/1982, 13.87
04/02/1982, 13.95
04/05/1982, 13.76
04/06/1982, 13.77
04/07/1982, 13.80
04/08/1982, 13.74
04/09/1982, ND
04/12/1982, 13.43
04/13/1982, 13.33
04/14/1982, 13.44
04/15/1982, 13.47
04/16/1982, 13.21
04/19/1982, 13.04
04/20/1982, 13.07
04/21/1982, 12.73
04/22/1982, 12.99
04/23/1982, 12.99
04/26/1982, 13.17
04/27/1982, 13.04
04/28/1982, 13.09
04/29/1982, 13.20
04/30/1982, 13.15
05/03/1982, 13.46
05/04/1982, 13.60
05/05/1982, 13.39
05/06/1982, 13.08
05/07/1982, 13.02
05/10/1982, 13.21
05/11/1982, 12.97
05/12/1982, 13.05
05/13/1982, 13.09
05/14/1982, 12.92
05/17/1982, 13.02
05/18/1982, 12.88
05/19/1982, 12.47
05/20/1982, 12.00
05/21/1982, 11.99
05/24/1982, 11.99
05/25/1982, 12.07
05/26/1982, 12.04
05/27/1982, 12.06
05/28/1982, 11.97
05/31/1982, ND
06/01/1982, 12.55
06/02/1982, 12.69
06/03/1982, 12.63
06/04/1982, 12.78
06/07/1982, 12.71
06/08/1982, 12.79
06/09/1982, 12.62
06/10/1982, 12.52
06/11/1982, 12.55
06/14/1982, 12.88
06/15/1982, 12.93
06/16/1982, 13.03
06/17/1982, 13.15
06/18/1982, 13.31
06/21/1982, 13.11
06/22/1982, 13.37
06/23/1982, 13.67
06/24/1982, 13.60
06/25/1982, 13.87
06/28/1982, 13.81
06/29/1982, 13.80
06/30/1982, 13.36
07/01/1982, 13.14
07/02/1982, 13.36
07/05/1982, ND
07/06/1982, 13.18
07/07/1982, 13.31
07/08/1982, 12.48
07/09/1982, 12.29
07/12/1982, 12.22
07/13/1982, 12.48
07/14/1982, 12.53
07/15/1982, 12.14
07/16/1982, 11.68
07/19/1982, 11.52
07/20/1982, 11.11
07/21/1982, 11.19
07/22/1982, 10.83
07/23/1982, 10.73
07/26/1982, 10.87
07/27/1982, 11.12
07/28/1982, 11.41
07/29/1982, 10.97
07/30/1982, 10.57
08/02/1982, 9.72
08/03/1982, 10.18
08/04/1982, 10.12
08/05/1982, 10.19
08/06/1982, 10.71
08/09/1982, 10.25
08/10/1982, 10.42
08/11/1982, 10.37
08/12/1982, 9.74
08/13/1982, 9.60
08/16/1982, 8.98
08/17/1982, 8.33
08/18/1982, 8.35
08/19/1982, 7.76
08/20/1982, 7.31
08/23/1982, 7.75
08/24/1982, 7.86
08/25/1982, 7.67
08/26/1982, 7.37
08/27/1982, 8.10
08/30/1982, 8.44
08/31/1982, 8.72
09/01/1982, 8.73
09/02/1982, 8.66
09/03/1982, 8.46
09/06/1982, ND
09/07/1982, 8.68
09/08/1982, 8.60
09/09/1982, 8.57
09/10/1982, 8.66
09/13/1982, 8.41
09/14/1982, 8.16
09/15/1982, 8.44
09/16/1982, 8.31
09/17/1982, 8.23
09/20/1982, 8.04
09/21/1982, 7.88
09/22/1982, 7.58
09/23/1982, 7.52
09/24/1982, 7.85
09/27/1982, 7.83
09/28/1982, 7.72
09/29/1982, 7.84
09/30/1982, 7.88
10/01/1982, 7.60
10/04/1982, 8.21
10/05/1982, 8.44
10/06/1982, 8.33
10/07/1982, 8.04
10/08/1982, 8.00

Source
--------------------------------------------------------------------

compare with


----------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to synthesize the information as you please.

__________________
Be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the present. For in the present is where we shape our future.

RightinNYC

I have no idea what you think any of this proves.

So you've proven that this number has absolutely no correlation to unemployment. Okay.
Which proves....?


So we had a recession when it was high and a recession when it was low. That proves?

I have no idea what you think this indicates, given that it's discussing absolute numbers rather than percentages.

Between 8/2000 and 9/2002, the S&P also lost over 50%. Was that another Great Depression?

__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Goldenboy219

This is not your "bad" recession of the 50's, 70's, 80's, and 90's lol. Treasury yields illustrate the rational of the investor, and they are scared, otherwise we would not have everything going to 0. Banks are experimenting with quantitative/credit easing strategies that signal the banking system has great deals of insolvency. All without the possibility of a true bank run due to the lush reserves pumped into the system.

And yet, another one of your attempts to paint it as im some sort of crazy lunatic. As stated before, i do not want to convince you of anything. The numbers are there, the US economy has never faced such a scenario as it does now, not even in 1929. Coming from the guy who was telling people to invest in S&P indexes last year, and your failure to acknowledge the significance, i can give two ****s what you think and believe. Rates are at ZERO, and demand for money seems to have reduced its velocity, rendering the Fed ineffective via a liquidity trap (unprecedented in the US).

Is it not? Simply stating "this doesn't mean anything" is an attempt to dumb down the conversation. It does mean something, otherwise, why do we have TARP, Stimulus, and FOMC credit easing?

Hey genius, wtf happened between those dates in the city you live?

__________________
Be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the present. For in the present is where we shape our future.