What we are as Nation. - Page 2

P/N · 10-04-08, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

I have been thinking about this, and I am not real sure what McCain could do to win at this point baring some huge mistake on Obama's part. McCain's problem is that he has ran to the right to appease the Republican base, and has picked a VP that appeals to them. However, this is not a base year for Republicans. His best chance of winning would have been to run as a moderate and get up before the American people and not brag about being a conservative, but rather brag about being a moderate, completely independent of either party.

I was talking about this to a conservative friend of mine the other day when we were out on a run together. She loves Palin, but like many conservatives, she was not so big on McCain. However, the Palin pick got her enthusiastic about the ticket. So while we were talking about it, I mentioned that it seems as though Palin's appeal is primarily to small towns and rural areas - more socially conservative areas. She responded with, "But thats real America". See, I think thats the problem with conservatives right now, they picture small town / Norman Rockwell America and they think, thats true America. What it is in reality though, is idealized America. Its that America that we idealize, especially those of us who were raised in small towns or rural areas. I know that when I think about the annual homecomings at the old white clabbered churches, I get a warm feeling inside. When I go home Arkansas and go to them old Southern Baptist Churches with friends and family, you just feel so welcome as everyone comes up to you after services end and gives you the old Baptist handshake. The problem is, thats not America anymore. Not really, its a facet of America, but its not really representative of America anymore.

We are a far more pluralistic and diverse nation than a lot of people think we are. Our own home is a diverse home. I work with people of a variety of different backgrounds, beliefs, and races. We go to the city market on weekends. There at the Kansas City Market, there is an Asian Market, an Italian Market, a Middle Eastern Market, an Indian Market, Amish Selling their harvest, old Farmers in overalls, Crunchies selling organic produce, no telling how many languages being spoken. There are Christians here, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists. At our kids school there are what we call traditional families, biracial families, kids with single parents, kids with same sex partners as parents, Whites, African Americans, Hispanics, Indians, Asians..... This is America. This is true America. By and large most of us live in diverse metros, not small towns anymore. So when some conservatives say that Palin appeals to the Joe Sixpacks of the country and says that they are in the majority, well, I am afraid you are wrong. That may have been the case before, but this country has changed.

Having lived in both small town, rural America (Smithville, IN and Frankfort, IN), medium sized cities (Kokomo, IN, Lafayette, IN and Mobile, AL) and much bigger cities (Indianapolis, IN and Kansas City, MO), I think I have a pretty good view of both your perspectives.

There are small towns of which she speaks of that still exist. Granted, there aren't nearly as many as there were say 25 years ago, but they are there. They don't make up most of the country and they aren't "real America", at least not to you and I, or most that post on this forum. But to a lot of people that live there, those small towns are "real America".

I agree with you in the sense that it's not real America any more. It's hard to define "real America" because things have changed so dramatically over the past 25 years. The middle class is drying up, or at the very least isn't defined by how it was 25 years ago. Technology has brought us both closer together and pushed us further apart at the same time. Illegal immigration has infiltrated big cities and small town America and is causing chaos everywhere. America can't be defined by a picture or a painting or a book today, it simply can't. I think your analogy of Normal Rockwell hits the nail on the head.

I'm sure Palin does resonate with those who live in small towns everywhere. They feel like she's one of them, and for the most part she is. I'm also sure she resonates with a lot of people who live in metro areas (like Smithville, MO and Leavenworth, KS - since I'm familiar with where you live). But she has the opposite effect on a lot of people from big cities. They view her as "old school" or "not in touch" because of her having grown up in small town America.

I guess what I'm saying is that you are both right, however I feel you are "more right" because I've lived in both settings and the times they are a changin'.

And I miss the hell out of the Kansas City Market. My fiancee and I went there every Saturday morning right when they opened to avoid the crowds (and the fact that I sleep during the day - no I'm not a blood sucking vampire aps). You merely mentioning it makes me miss Kansas City that much more. It is a true reflection of the melting pot that America has become in a lot of places.

American · 10-04-08, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

I have been thinking about this, and I am not real sure what McCain could do to win at this point baring some huge mistake on Obama's part. McCain's problem is that he has ran to the right to appease the Republican base, and has picked a VP that appeals to them. However, this is not a base year for Republicans. His best chance of winning would have been to run as a moderate and get up before the American people and not brag about being a conservative, but rather brag about being a moderate, completely independent of either party.

I was talking about this to a conservative friend of mine the other day when we were out on a run together. She loves Palin, but like many conservatives, she was not so big on McCain. However, the Palin pick got her enthusiastic about the ticket. So while we were talking about it, I mentioned that it seems as though Palin's appeal is primarily to small towns and rural areas - more socially conservative areas. She responded with, "But thats real America". See, I think thats the problem with conservatives right now, they picture small town / Norman Rockwell America and they think, thats true America. What it is in reality though, is idealized America. Its that America that we idealize, especially those of us who were raised in small towns or rural areas. I know that when I think about the annual homecomings at the old white clabbered churches, I get a warm feeling inside. When I go home Arkansas and go to them old Southern Baptist Churches with friends and family, you just feel so welcome as everyone comes up to you after services end and gives you the old Baptist handshake. The problem is, thats not America anymore. Not really, its a facet of America, but its not really representative of America anymore.

We are a far more pluralistic and diverse nation than a lot of people think we are. Our own home is a diverse home. I work with people of a variety of different backgrounds, beliefs, and races. We go to the city market on weekends. There at the Kansas City Market, there is an Asian Market, an Italian Market, a Middle Eastern Market, an Indian Market, Amish Selling their harvest, old Farmers in overalls, Crunchies selling organic produce, no telling how many languages being spoken. There are Christians here, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists. At our kids school there are what we call traditional families, biracial families, kids with single parents, kids with same sex partners as parents, Whites, African Americans, Hispanics, Indians, Asians..... This is America. This is true America. By and large most of us live in diverse metros, not small towns anymore. So when some conservatives say that Palin appeals to the Joe Sixpacks of the country and says that they are in the majority, well, I am afraid you are wrong. That may have been the case before, but this country has changed.

Yes, you are so well round, so above us all, please have mercy upon us. You've met some many different people, people that we'll never meet and we should take your word for everything, just trust you without question. You are the "One", the messiah. Hahahaha, give me a break, know-it-all. Fly-over country is the part of America that most people appreciate, not Gay Pride Marches in SF.

Pilots For 911 Truth · 10-04-08, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

...His best chance of winning would have been to run as a moderate and get up before the American people and not brag about being a conservative, but rather brag about being a moderate, completely independent of either party.

...At our kids school there are what we call traditional families, biracial families, kids with single parents, kids with same sex partners as parents, Whites, African Americans, Hispanics, Indians, Asians..... This is America. This is true America.

...That may have been the case before, but this country has changed.

Simply, beautiful, spot on and precisely to the point.

However, I do have one slight disagreement. McCain is in fact, now attempting to run to the middle and he’s been doing that ever since he’s campaign strategists realized the potency of Obama’s message of “change.” McCain is now trying really hard to have his cake and eat it too. The Palin Pick (which I think at this point deserves to be thought of a noun of sorts), was his move to recover the lost base. But, the base that he lost the most, was the Religious Right and his campaign strategists realize that McCain cannot win without that component of the Republican Base.

Dr. Dobson is the perfect example of this theory. Take a close look at his (Dobson’s) transformation on McCain through the reality of the Palin Pick, because Dr. Dobson holds an enormous number of Religious Right votes in his back pocket:

Dr. Dobson makes vow on McCain:

YouTube - Dobson NO VOTE for Giuliani or McCain Under Any Circumstance

McCain's reply:

YouTube - McCain Will Not Reach Out to Dobson

The transformation of Dr. Dobson begins through Palin Pick:

YouTube - Dobson Praises Palin's Decision To Be A Working Mom

The transformation of Dr. Dobson seems complete:

YouTube - Dr. James Dobson 'Might' Endorse Sen. John McCain

Clearly, Dr. Dobson has turned the Religious Right towards McCain because of the Palin Pick. That gave McCain the freedom to begin running against Bush and the rest of the incumbent Republican Party, which he so desperately attempted to continue doing during the first debate with Obama. The whole notion of him being a 'maverick', 'not winning a popularity contest within his own party' and not once mentioning George W. Bush during the entire debate in a positive or meaningful way, is his attempt at moving himself to the center while at the same time, taking on the indigenous Right wing of his own party.

He really is trying to have the cake, ice cream, punch, soda and apple pie, all at the same time.

But, as you point out, the country has shifted in terms of its true demographics and the old Republican campaign paradigm of playing to 'joe six pack' and 'small town Family Values' (as if nobody else has values worth voting for), simply won't hunt anymore in the new American demographic. McCain is trying to reach to the middle, but I think it is too little and too late for that.

SouthernDemocrat · 10-04-08, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

"Clabbered" = "Clapboard"?

I think "clabbered" means "curdled" (as in milk).

Totally agree with your post, though.
To me, "real America" is the heavily liberal city I was born in and have lived my entire life in, but I'm not stupid enough to think that's "real America" for everyone (which is why I've never left; I know other parts of America must be very different, and that people there would have a different value-system than mine).
The majority of American people today are not inhabitants of small towns and rural areas... although, statistically, perhaps the majority of white conservative fundamentalist christians are, and it's unsurprising to me that they'd believe they are the only "real" people, and that their America is therefore the only "real" America.

Such is their arrogance.

I think that liberals forget though is that what many conservatives idealize as "real America" still is part of America.

SouthernDemocrat · 10-04-08, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American

Yes, you are so well round, so above us all, please have mercy upon us. You've met some many different people, people that we'll never meet and we should take your word for everything, just trust you without question. You are the "One", the messiah. Hahahaha, give me a break, know-it-all. Fly-over country is the part of America that most people appreciate, not Gay Pride Marches in SF.

I am not sure what you are getting at. The area I am talking about, KC, is "Fly-over country". Personally, I have never lived anywhere but fly over country.

If you have something to offer other than your typical bitchy remarks, you are welcome to contribute to the thread.

1069 · 10-04-08, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

I think that liberals forget though is that what many conservatives idealize as "real America" still is part of America.

It is a part of America which has a value-system based on excluding others. It's based on voluntary isolation and exclusion.
Therefore I don't mind excluding it. I see no reason to perpetuate it as a way of life.

SouthernDemocrat · 10-04-08, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

It is a part of America which has a value-system based on excluding others. It's based on voluntary isolation and exclusion.
Therefore I don't mind excluding it. I see no reason to perpetuate it as a way of life.

Do you not see the irony in your excluding a form of "traditionalism" that you don't agree with because you believe they exclude those that they don't agree with?

1069 · 10-04-08, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

Do you not see the irony in your excluding a form of "traditionalism" that you don't agree with because you believe they exclude those that they don't agree with?

My exclusionism is based upon their (self-chosen) belief system, which I find detrimental to society.
Theirs is largely based upon factors that people cannot help, such as race and sexual orientation.

No. I do not see the irony.

don'ttreadonme · 10-04-08, 04:38 PM

I'm Southern and in one of the largest cities in the country and don't agree with your take on it at all. (Not surprising!)

I think your side likes to paint it like it's so black and white but it's not. Do you really think no minorities or immigrants are conservative? People who worked their asses off to make it here (and learned English!) and be successful. People who left oppressive countries to find liberty.

My neighborhood is mostly white but we certainly have hispanics, blacks, Asians, biracial families. We even have Jews and Muslims.

I don't know how these people in particular vote but I'm in a heavily Republican district so some of 'em must not be liberals.

Pilots For 911 Truth · 10-04-08, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

If you have something to offer other than your typical bitchy remarks, you are welcome to contribute to the thread.

Don't hold your breath waiting for it - you'll suffer brain damage as a result.