galenrox

You should try holding yourself to your own standard, I understand what the Dem ad was getting at. The point of the Republican ad wasn't blaming Dems for 9/11, but you're only seeing that through your partisan filter.

The Republican billboard was about national security. It is also fear mongering because it seeks to create a subconscious connection between Democrats and what happened on 9/11. The Democrat ad was about ethics. It is also fear mongering because it seeks to create a subconscious connection between John McCain and murderous dictators. The only distinction you've provided is that the Republican ad exploits one major American tragedy while the Democrat ad exploits several major foreign tragedies.

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independent_thinker2002

What subconscious connection between McCain and murderous dictators? I ask in all honesty. What am I supposed to be afraid of?

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galenrox

They fade from murderous dictator to murderous dictator to murderous dictator to murderous dictator to John McCain. It implies a connection between McCain and the murderous dictators in the same way the billboard implies a connection between the Democrats and 9/11.

independent_thinker2002

Yes, the billboard implies that democratic policies led to 9/11. It will happen again if we elect a dem.

Is this ad supposed to suggest that McCain would become a murderous dictator? Is that what you are saying? I don't know anyone who thinks that is true. Rather, they would find it absurd. I don't think McCain would have henchmen that would come kill me. If that is what I am supposed to be afraid of, it's an epic fail. I really think it's a stretch to see that as the message they are trying to convey. Occam's razor applies here. It is easy to see that the point was highlighting hypocrisy. There is nothing to fear here.

galenrox

Once again, if you hold both to the same standards you'll see they are the same. All of your arguments are "If you hold the Dems to standard A and the Republicans to standard B the Republicans are further from meeting the standard of decency. Please ignore that B is set higher than A, as that's irrelevant."

If you're going to play naive to the fear mongering on both sides, all the Republican billboard does is show a picture of 9/11 and says "Please don't vote for Democrats". It doesn't say why it showed the picture of 9/11, it doesn't in any way say that Democrats caused 9/11 or if they were elected they would cause another 9/11. It just shows a picture and says "Please don't vote for Democrats".
And on the Dem ad, sure if you want to play naive to the fear mongering, they're just talking about people who some of McCain's people used to work for, they never actually say McCain's connected to these murderous dictators, they're just pointing out that some people on McCain's campaign used to work as lobbyists for these people.


BUT
If we're going to have a conversation like adults where we can cut past the partisan selective perception nonsense and recognize fear mongering regardless of whether it's done by our own political party, it's clear that there's a lot more that's being implied in each than is actually said. In the Republican billboard it's implied there's some connection between Democrats and 9/11, either they're responsible for it, they'll cause another one, or both. It doesn't say it, but it's sure as hell implied. And the Democrat ad implies that there's a connection between McCain and these murderous dictators, either he's like them, or he's cool with them, or they'd have clout in McCain's white house, or all of the above. Once again, it doesn't say it, but it's sure as hell implied.



Listen, I recognize we're heading towards an election and it's easy to get caught up in the tunnel vision and it's sometimes hard to remove yourself from seeing things in a purely partisan manner, but I would really appreciate it if you would choose not to waste my time with that sort of ****, as I feel I have already extended that courtesy to you. I'm not going to bother if you repeatedly attempt to excuse holding different sides to different standards.

shuamort

I just watched the video in the OP and it was a bit laughable when it came to facts. The line that made me stop watching was "And who have they represented? Companies doing business in Iran...". C'mon. Even Coke and Pepsi are doing business in Iran, does that make them anti-US too?

independent_thinker2002

The dem ad starts out saying:

"John McCain says he'll take on lobbyists."

Then:

"But his inner circle is full of Lobbyists:

Charlie Black - Chief Campaign Adviser
Doug Goodyear - Convention CEO
Tom Loeffler - National Co-Chair
Rick Davis - Campaign Manager
Randy Scheunemann - Top Foreign Policy Adviser"

This is the opening statement, and thesis of the ad. This is what I was focused on. Now, if these facts are true, it is reasonable for discussion. Naming who they lobbied is giving evidence that they are lobbyists. If they lobbied for these groups, pointing it out isn't inherently partisan. Presentation is everything.

Now after rewatching this, I see that "Anti-Western Political Parties" are one of the groups. I guess that this could be taken as someone to be fearful of. I've just rewatched it and can see how that may be taken as something to be afraid of and fearmongering.

Personally, the rest doesn't scare me. It was a smear, I don't dispute that. But, it was a smear based in fact. They aren't going to put out an ad praising McCain. I see it as legitimate ammo. The could have presented it in an honest manner though.

As for the bolded sentence, those things may be true (minus the "he'll be like them" for reasons already stated) but they don't threaten me personally. I won't lose my health care, I won't be killed, I won't lose my social security, and I won't lose my freeedom. This is why I asked what I am to be afraid of. I see that it could be playing on fear with the "Anti-Western political parties".

If you would have shown me that the "Anti-Western political parties" was something to fear, I would have had to concede. Instead you kept calling me a partisan. I overlooked a point and you failed to point it out. I'm not blaming you. I made a mistake. It's my bad. I'm not intentionally trying to be obtuse with you. I'm not trying to be partisan. But for the love of God, use some evidence instead of hurling the partisan card which is an ad hominem attack on the man. The facts were on your side. I asked you what there was to fear. If you would have answered that question, you could have saved yourself some frustration. I should have noticed it but I missed it.

galenrox

Clearly you haven't read a ****ing word I've said, so I think this conversation is over. I apologize for thinking we could have an adult conversation.

independent_thinker2002

Yes, I read what you said. I notice that you fail to address my arguments and just repeatedly accuse me of having a partisan doublestandard. I still haven't gotten a straight answer from you as to what exactly I am supposed to be afraid of when McCain is linked to dictators. How am I threatened? What personal loss should I be afraid of? I see with the Anti-Western political groups which imply the like of Hamas and other Islamic radicals. I agreed with you after noticing that. Perhaps you didn't read a ****ing word I said. (Adult enough for ya?)

Instead you wanted to play internet psycologist and speculate why I had the argument that I had. Why are you being passive aggressive? You are posturing as if I hadn't asked you illustrate what I should fear from dictators of third world countries. If this is that he may make bad policies, then all political ads are fearmongering. It doesn't hold up to the standard of "if you vote for my opponent, you will die". Now you are taking your ball and going home. That's fine. It's called debating. You ignored my questions and I didn't throw a fit about it like you have done in the past. Why the double standard?

Hatuey

It proves the idiocy of the modern day GOP who forgets 9/11 happened under a Republican president, House of Representatives and Senate.

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