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Sanders VS Trump: The actual political argument

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code1211

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Well, we finally have a well defined race shaping up for us.

A Capitalist vs a Communist.

I hope that this is the pairing for the upcoming election as we will finally have the opportunity to discuss and consider the actual arguments that will affect everyone.

Do most Americans feel it is better to attack all profit driven interests knowing that if the rich are stripped of their wealth they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

Do most Americans feel it is better to promote all profit driven interests knowing that if more wealth is created, they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

We finally have reached the bottom of the slippery slope.

How do you vote? Are you filled with hope and courage or filled with fear and despair?
 
I'd feel fear and despair. My biggest deterrent from Trump is his character. My biggest fear with Sanders would be his very weak foreign policy and devastating domestic policy.

I really hope it's Rubio vs. Clinton with Rubio smashing her in the election.
 
code1211 said:
Well, we finally have a well defined race shaping up for us.

A Capitalist vs a Communist.
Click to expand...

Stopped reading there. Bernie Sanders is not a Communist.
 
He is, however, a "pinko" democratic socialist who's sympathies are going to lie with those sorts of regimes the world over.
 
Kobie said:
Stopped reading there. Bernie Sanders is not a Communist.
Click to expand...

What is the difference between his position and those of a Communist?
 
You need to be careful with these rebranding efforts. It sounds good--tarnish a politician by falsely associating him with something with negative connotations!--but in practice it can backfire.

That's why the right today is scratching its collective asking "why are millennials seemingly so open to socialism?" as Bernie dominates that age bracket. Perhaps it's partly because for the past 10 years millennials have been told that socialism = Barack Obama.
 
Kobie said:
Stopped reading there. Bernie Sanders is not a Communist.
Click to expand...

Change the definitions to whatever you like.

We would have one candidate that feels that Capitalism is a good thing and another who feels that Capitalism a bad thing.

Can you now continue reading or are you going to continue on the stop the discussion path?
 
Greenbeard said:
You need to be careful with these rebranding efforts. It sounds good--tarnish a politician by falsely associating him with something with negative connotations!--but in practice it can backfire.

That's why the right today is scratching its collective asking "why are millennials seemingly so open to socialism?" as Bernie dominates that age bracket. Perhaps it's partly because for the past 10 years millennials have been told that socialism = Barack Obama.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's because 10 years of Democrat policies have produced an economy free of opportunity for the Millennials.
 
code1211 said:
Change the definitions to whatever you like.

We would have one candidate that feels that Capitalism is a good thing and another who feels that Capitalism a bad thing.

Can you now continue reading or are you going to continue on the stop the discussion path?
Click to expand...

Pointing out the factual inaccuracy of "Bernie Sanders is a communist" is trying to "stop the discussion"? Are your ideas that fragile that they cannot be challenged?

code1211 said:
What is the difference between his position and those of a Communist?
Click to expand...

Well, let's see, Sanders isn't advocating for common ownership of the means of production. There. Done.
 
Kobie said:
Stopped reading there. Bernie Sanders is not a Communist.
Click to expand...

Incidentally, Sanders may not be an absolutely pure example of a Communist. Trump may not be an absolutely pure example of a Capitalist.

Why did you take issue only with the labeling of Sanders?
 
code1211 said:
Incidentally, Sanders may not be an absolutely pure example of a Communist. Trump may not be an absolutely pure example of a Capitalist.

Why did you take issue only with the labeling of Sanders?
Click to expand...

Because it was the one that most egregiously incorrect. But I've come to expect nothing less than poor labeling from self-proclaimed conservatives around here.
 
Kobie said:
Pointing out the factual inaccuracy of "Bernie Sanders is a communist" is trying to "stop the discussion"? Are your ideas that fragile that they cannot be challenged?



Well, let's see, Sanders isn't advocating for common ownership of the means of production. There. Done.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

Change the examples to Capitalist vs Socialist.

I heard one pundit say that if Sanders' entire agenda promised on the stump is adopted, the tax rate will need to go to 95% of the GDP.

Sounds more like Communism to me.
 
Greenbeard said:
Then I suppose the revolution is upon us, comrade.
Click to expand...

It will be interesting.

The same question was presented when Reagan ran against Carter.

That was long ago. Probably before the historical grasp of most of Sanders' supporters.

We could see where the country has moved in the meantime.
 
Kobie said:
Because it was the one that most egregiously incorrect. But I've come to expect nothing less than poor labeling from self-proclaimed conservatives around here.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, a hardcore Capitalist is against any level of taxation. I don't think Trump has expressed this in his campaign to date. He has said to reduce taxes as did both Reagan and Kennedy.

Sanders has endorsed various payoffs to those who vote for him. Free college? Great idea. Waste money on those who don't have the ambition to work for what they want.

From what I've heard, BernieCare makes ObamaCare look like a fiscally Conservative program.

Bernie Sanders on Healthcare
 
code1211 said:
Well, we finally have a well defined race shaping up for us.

A Capitalist vs a Communist.

I hope that this is the pairing for the upcoming election as we will finally have the opportunity to discuss and consider the actual arguments that will affect everyone.

Do most Americans feel it is better to attack all profit driven interests knowing that if the rich are stripped of their wealth they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

Do most Americans feel it is better to promote all profit driven interests knowing that if more wealth is created, they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

We finally have reached the bottom of the slippery slope.

How do you vote? Are you filled with hope and courage or filled with fear and despair?
Click to expand...

Sorry for how this going to go... but your post is all bull****.

Trump is no capitalist, and Sanders is no communist.

Trump (over all of his time, not just as a candidate for 2016) has called for additional taxation on imported goods to ridiculous percentages, believes regulators should step in on his determination of unfavorable mergers and buy outs, claims what certain commodities should be priced at and why, and even some modifications to our progressive taxation system aimed at the highest earners. His political philosophy, which has been all over the board depending on his personal gains, is not hands-off free-market capitalist at all. It may be oligarchical every now and then depending upon instance, but that is not necessarily free market capitalist. He even boasts as a candidate that he buys political influence to his benefit, illustrating with perfection the development of business models that benefit from government action and decision. No where near free market thinking.

Sanders is not a communist. Socialism is not communism, and Democratic Socialism in his context just means the power of the majority to influence our mixed economic model more towards planned. "Production for use" theories are not necessarily exact mirrors of dictatorship principles over common ownership of production, besides what we are really talking about here is the collision of economic theory and government theory. Some overlap, some similar inspirations, but not the same thing.

So your questions are irrelevant to the central theory that we are seeing an election reduced to a capitalist vs. a communist. We have neither in this race, assuming it is Trump vs. Sanders in the general.
 
code1211 said:
Well, we finally have a well defined race shaping up for us.

A Capitalist vs a Communist.

I hope that this is the pairing for the upcoming election as we will finally have the opportunity to discuss and consider the actual arguments that will affect everyone.

Do most Americans feel it is better to attack all profit driven interests knowing that if the rich are stripped of their wealth they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

Do most Americans feel it is better to promote all profit driven interests knowing that if more wealth is created, they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

We finally have reached the bottom of the slippery slope.

How do you vote? Are you filled with hope and courage or filled with fear and despair?
Click to expand...

All I can figure is that someone left the gate open on the donkey farm and one of the asses escaped, or not. Please post the link that proves that Bernie Sanders is a Communist. Also, check and see if a Bankruptcy Court Welfare Queen qualifies as a Capitalist. Keep in touch.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Sorry for how this going to go... but your post is all bull****.

Trump is no capitalist, and Sanders is no communist.

Trump (over all of his time, not just as a candidate for 2016) has called for additional taxation on imported goods to ridiculous percentages, believes regulators should step in on his determination of unfavorable mergers and buy outs, claims what certain commodities should be priced at and why, and even some modifications to our progressive taxation system aimed at the highest earners. His political philosophy, which has been all over the board depending on his personal gains, is not hands-off free-market capitalist at all. It may be oligarchical every now and then depending upon instance, but that is not necessarily free market capitalist. He even boasts as a candidate that he buys political influence to his benefit, illustrating with perfection the development of business models that benefit from government action and decision. No where near free market thinking.

Sanders is not a communist. Socialism is not communism, and Democratic Socialism in his context just means the power of the majority to influence our mixed economic model more towards planned. "Production for use" theories are not necessarily exact mirrors of dictatorship principles over common ownership of production, besides what we are really talking about here is the collision of economic theory and government theory. Some overlap, some similar inspirations, but not the same thing.

So your questions are irrelevant to the central theory that we are seeing an election reduced to a capitalist vs. a communist. We have neither in this race, assuming it is Trump vs. Sanders in the general.
Click to expand...

Would you agree that one believes that America should rest its future primarily on the expansion of for-profit business and the other believes that America should rest its future primarily on the expansion of government?
 
code1211 said:
As I understand it, a hardcore Capitalist is against any level of taxation. I don't think Trump has expressed this in his campaign to date. He has said to reduce taxes as did both Reagan and Kennedy.

Sanders has endorsed various payoffs to those who vote for him. Free college? Great idea. Waste money on those who don't have the ambition to work for what they want.

From what I've heard, BernieCare makes ObamaCare look like a fiscally Conservative program.

Bernie Sanders on Healthcare
Click to expand...

Trump the Capitalist's admiration for single-payer is well-known.

Is this a rare area of agreement between the Communists and the Capitalists?
 
code1211 said:
Would you agree that one believes that America should rest its future primarily on the expansion of for-profit business and the other believes that America should rest its future primarily on the expansion of government?
Click to expand...

No, I don't... and I'll explain why.

If you go to Trump's page for 2016 (and I'd urge you to consider all Trump has said, not just since June of this past year) there is little from Trump about slowing down the expansion of government. Sure he talks about debt, and ironically without any real economic principle in the video. Just the typical idea "we are passing debt to our kids" rhetoric without talking about economic condition. What I do not see is some video or statement saying "I'll reduce the size of our overbearing government." Which is always argumentative anyway regardless of what is said at the stump, Republicans and Democrats alike in the White House or Congress alike have all proven with remarkable consistency that reducing the size and scope of government is simply not in the cards. Prove me otherwise, seriously... give it a shot.

Sanders is not about necessarily about the prevention of expanding for-profit business. I would agree he is about expanding the size and scope of government to handle our mixed economic model, but it becomes argumentative that Sanders would advocate harming our businesses and general markets. It would be an outright falsehood to suggest Sanders would want to see GDP decline, or business output of goods and services to decline.

If the race comes down to anything between Trump and Sanders, it comes down to where we slide on the economic scale between complete hands off economics and planned economics.

We have have been mixed model long enough to realize that if anything Trump would more or less keep things as is government speaking in that equation, Sanders would slide the scale a little more towards the principle of planned economies. However, we have zero evidence that Sanders would reduce the footprint of our economic model by going after "for-profit business." They may not like all of his regulation ideas, or the arguable costs of doing business under his ideas... but if demand for goods and products are there business will handle that. This is economics 101. He may advocate dealing with "too big to fail" but that also does not necessarily mean ending enterprise, just means regulation of risk taking.

And again, I am not convinced at all that under Trump all of a sudden we would see some reduction in government size and scope. Especially with everything he wants in the areas of Defense, Immigration, and other trade "protections."

Economically neither one will have the power on their own to reduce the election to the context you are going for. It is the difference between campaign rhetoric (and counter-rhetoric) vs. the reality of either one really being President.
 
code1211 said:
Fair enough.

Change the examples to Capitalist vs Socialist.

I heard one pundit say that if Sanders' entire agenda promised on the stump is adopted, the tax rate will need to go to 95% of the GDP.

Sounds more like Communism to me.
Click to expand...

Well, if a pundit said it, it must be true.
 
Greenbeard said:
Trump the Capitalist's admiration for single-payer is well-known.

Is this a rare area of agreement between the Communists and the Capitalists?
Click to expand...

Well, perhaps this is just another in the ongoing examples of both parties producing the same candidate. Again...
 
OrphanSlug said:
No, I don't... and I'll explain why.

If you go to Trump's page for 2016 (and I'd urge you to consider all Trump has said, not just since June of this past year) there is little from Trump about slowing down the expansion of government. Sure he talks about debt, and ironically without any real economic principle in the video. Just the typical idea "we are passing debt to our kids" rhetoric without talking about economic condition. What I do not see is some video or statement saying "I'll reduce the size of our overbearing government." Which is always argumentative anyway regardless of what is said at the stump, Republicans and Democrats alike in the White House or Congress alike have all proven with remarkable consistency that reducing the size and scope of government is simply not in the cards. Prove me otherwise, seriously... give it a shot.

Sanders is not about necessarily about the prevention of expanding for-profit business. I would agree he is about expanding the size and scope of government to handle our mixed economic model, but it becomes argumentative that Sanders would advocate harming our businesses and general markets. It would be an outright falsehood to suggest Sanders would want to see GDP decline, or business output of goods and services to decline.

If the race comes down to anything between Trump and Sanders, it comes down to where we slide on the economic scale between complete hands off economics and planned economics.

We have have been mixed model long enough to realize that if anything Trump would more or less keep things as is government speaking in that equation, Sanders would slide the scale a little more towards the principle of planned economies. However, we have zero evidence that Sanders would reduce the footprint of our economic model by going after "for-profit business." They may not like all of his regulation ideas, or the arguable costs of doing business under his ideas... but if demand for goods and products are there business will handle that. This is economics 101. He may advocate dealing with "too big to fail" but that also does not necessarily mean ending enterprise, just means regulation of risk taking.

And again, I am not convinced at all that under Trump all of a sudden we would see some reduction in government size and scope. Especially with everything he wants in the areas of Defense, Immigration, and other trade "protections."

Economically neither one will have the power on their own to reduce the election to the context you are going for. It is the difference between campaign rhetoric (and counter-rhetoric) vs. the reality of either one really being President.
Click to expand...

Perhaps Trump would slow the expansion and Sanders would accelerate the expansion.

I think you are absolutely right that ANY president in the last 80 or so years has expanded the reach and power of the Executive branch and therefore the Federal Government.

We have a hint that perhaps the Supreme Court is willing to reign in the expansion of the Executive powers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/10/u...bama-epa-coal-emissions-regulations.html?_r=0

Maybe nothing will come of this, but who knows?

Still, your post is both very well thought out and very instructive for me.

Thank you.
 
code1211 said:
Well, we finally have a well defined race shaping up for us.

A Capitalist vs a Communist.

I hope that this is the pairing for the upcoming election as we will finally have the opportunity to discuss and consider the actual arguments that will affect everyone.

Do most Americans feel it is better to attack all profit driven interests knowing that if the rich are stripped of their wealth they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

Do most Americans feel it is better to promote all profit driven interests knowing that if more wealth is created, they will get a bigger piece of the pie?

We finally have reached the bottom of the slippery slope.

How do you vote? Are you filled with hope and courage or filled with fear and despair?
Click to expand...

I don't see any point in answering your final questions because I don't think it'll come down to Sanders VS Trump. In fact, I think Sanders is going to crash and "Bern" by the end of March. Trump very well could end up the Republican nominee, but I still think it's likely he'll get "trumped" by Bush.

So, code1211, come back at the end of March and ask your question again...if you can.
 
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