Are Corporations People ?

I'm taking significant exception to M.Romney's comment that 'Corporations are People!" as I've just seen on CSPAN.

I don't recall any corporations being drafted to serve in Vietnam.

I don't believe that corporations have a right to vote in any civil elections in this country including federal elections.

I'm a little uncertain as to whether 'corporate people' are allowed to bear arms in this country.

May I marry a corporate body, independent of its stated sexual orientation?

Can corporations be deported upon being found to engaged in illegal overseas activities or defrauding the government of this country?

Can a corporation be sentenced to federal or state prison for violating the laws of this country?

For some reason, Mr. Romney is very confused about the nature of people and abstractions about people and should apologize to the people of this country before he is mistaken for another 'silly' Republican who is a token of the corporate citizens he serves.

I suppose that its no wonder that the US now relies on a mercenary armed force (voluntary is a bit of a stretch given the costs and budget requirements, particularly for the Nato generals,etc contributing a couple thousand members combined).

Over half of military support overseas is sub-contracted out to corporations able to deal with the corruption that occurs there. But that's just the military-industrial complex all grown up, despite Eisenhower's warnings so long ago.

Corporations are legal fictions to allow groups of people to avoid individual responsibility for their actions. It seemed like a good idea at the time to encourage business.

Hell no corporations are not people!

GravityWave said:

I'm taking significant exception to M.Romney's comment that 'Corporations are People!" as I've just seen on CSPAN.

I don't recall any corporations being drafted to serve in Vietnam.

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There are people within corporations who have served in Vietnam

I don't believe that corporations have a right to vote in any civil elections in this country including federal elections.

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Everyone from the CEO to the janitor in a corporations has a right to vote, thats a bad thing?

I'm a little uncertain as to whether 'corporate people' are allowed to bear arms in this country.

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Yes well, if the left had their way, absolutely no one would be allowed to bear arms.

May I marry a corporate body, independent of its stated sexual orientation?

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why not? there are many men and women within a corporation. A lot of people from competiting corporations intermarry all the time.

Can corporations be deported upon being found to engaged in illegal overseas activities or defrauding the government of this country?

Can a corporation be sentenced to federal or state prison for violating the laws of this country?

For some reason, Mr. Romney is very confused about the nature of people and abstractions about people and should apologize to the people of this country before he is mistaken for another 'silly' Republican who is a token of the corporate citizens he serves.

I suppose that its no wonder that the US now relies on a mercenary armed force (voluntary is a bit of a stretch given the costs and budget requirements, particularly for the Nato generals,etc contributing a couple thousand members combined).

Over half of military support overseas is sub-contracted out to corporations able to deal with the corruption that occurs there. But that's just the military-industrial complex all grown up, despite Eisenhower's warnings so long ago.

Corporations are legal fictions to allow groups of people to avoid individual responsibility for their actions. It seemed like a good idea at the time to encourage business.

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*sigh* good job at only conveniantly quoting HALF of what mitt romney stated.
RealClearPolitics - Romney Gets Feisty at Iowa State Fair

Romney then stopped in mid-sentence and said, “Corporations are people, my friend.”

That didn’t go over well with Romney’s interrogators, but the candidate was having none of it.

“Of course they are,” he said. “Everything corporations earn ultimately goes to people.”

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He isn't stating that some "organization" is a whole person, rather, an organization is "people". they are run by people no different from you and I. Everything a corporation does is done by people like you and I.

idk about anyone else, but Romney's balls grew here.

“If you don’t like my answer, you can vote for someone else, but now it’s my turn to give my answer,” Romney said. “You ready for my answer? I’m not going to raise taxes. That’s my answer. I’m not going to raise taxes, and if you want somebody that can raise taxes, you can vote for Barack Obama.”

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And so began the end of the Romney candidacy 2.0... not since Howard Dean has such a short piece of video ensured the imminent downfall of a political campaign. Like it or not folks, stick a fork in him 'cuz he's done.

Corporate person hood was clearly described by the 1866 ruling by the US Supreme Court in the case Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, one of the most regrettable rulings by that court in its entire history, IMHO. Interestingly, the decision affirmed the right of corporations to be protected by the "equal protection" clause of the 14th amendment.

Fittingly, the railroad company originally brought suit so that it could avoid paying taxes. Unsurprisingly, the company won with a unanimous decision. Fast forward about 150 years and we've made it all the way to Citizens United v. FEC. Now, these "people" have the unabridged right to broadcast "electioneering communications."

I can hear the right wingnutters in my head... "so what?"

Here's the real point: if corporations ARE people, they need to get locked the **** up because they're psychopathic predators on the rest of society. Perhaps more like the undead, since there is no limit to their lifespan... Either way, they are NOT YOUR FRIEND.

if you look at the exchange, he wasn't saying that "corporations are people" in the sense that McDonalds is an individual human being. he was saying "corporations are people" in the sense that corporations are made up of.... people. corporations are soylent green. You can tell, because the next thing out of his mouth is responding to a claim about corporations putting their money in their pockets by saying "exactly, it goes into peoples' pockets".


all the same, this line will probably be twisted and misused ad nauseum, like Margaret Thatchers point about society.

Anyone who believes that corporations are people, as in a legal person that can vote and so on.. is a moron... which yes means half of the justices in the Supreme Court are morons.

Anyone who says that "corporations are people" and means that there are people in corporations ... is also a moron and should stop talking down to the voting population and learn to avoid talking in riddles.

Corps are "legal entities". Is a legal entity a person or person-like?

PeteEU said:

Anyone who believes that corporations are people, as in a legal person that can vote and so on.. is a moron... which yes means half of the justices in the Supreme Court are morons.

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Never mind none of them said or ruled that way. Never let your prejudices get in the way of the facts though.

Anyone who says that "corporations are people" and means that there are people in corporations ... is also a moron and should stop talking down to the voting population and learn to avoid talking in riddles.

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Or avoid untruths.

Do we tell people that they can no longer vote because they are a part of a corporation?

Why is it that we can tell them that they can not spend their money as they wish?

TheDemSocialist said:

Hell no corporations are not people!

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Because I'm employed, I can't qualify for the earned income credit, I have to pay self employment taxes, I'm personally responsible for the taxes that my corporation owes.

Sounds like me and my corporation are the same dude.

PeteEU said:

Anyone who believes that corporations are people, as in a legal person that can vote and so on.. is a moron... which yes means half of the justices in the Supreme Court are morons.

Anyone who says that "corporations are people" and means that there are people in corporations ... is also a moron and should stop talking down to the voting population and learn to avoid talking in riddles.

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Why don't we ever hear Libbos complain about how this ruling also applied to labor unions?

apdst said:

Why don't we ever hear Libbos complain about how this ruling also applied to labor unions?

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Or individuals.

All of this arguing is playing with the definition of the word.

Morally, corporations are not people. The only language they are concerned about are finances that are in their best interest regardless about the social and environmental consequences. That is not human, sorry.

apdst said:

Because I'm employed, I can't qualify for the earned income credit, I have to pay self employment taxes, I'm personally responsible for the taxes that my corporation owes.

Sounds like me and my corporation are the same dude.

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Can i get your whole corporation drafted to go fight in some foreign country for any reason?

sookster said:

All of this arguing is playing with the definition of the word.

Morally, corporations are not people. The only language they are concerned about are finances that are in their best interest regardless about the social and environmental consequences. That is not human, sorry.

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of course they are. because the "THEY" is indeed people.

TheDemSocialist said:

Can i get your whole corporation drafted to go fight in some foreign country for any reason?

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Sure, if they all fall under eligibility requirements. They would somehow be exempt because they are a part of a corporation?

TheDemSocialist said:

Can i get your whole corporation drafted to go fight in some foreign country for any reason?

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:shrug: as much as you can get unions, or political parties, or religious groups, or any other voluntary association of individuals, who would assumably be subject to the Draft to do so.





as an easy way to flip it, try this on for size:



"I think we should massacre the public unions".



now, i'm willing to bet that your first thought was not of the union buildings, the union placards, or the union trademarks, but the union members. to say that we should massacre public unions is a horrendous statement because it means that we should mass-murder people. because unions are made up of people.



when you raise taxes on "corporations" you aren't raising taxes on the Wal-Mart smiley face. you are raising taxes on Wal-Mart shareholders, which means you are raising taxes on (for example) pension funds that hold Wal-Mart stock, which means you are really raising taxes on the elderly. whatever you do to "corporations", you are really doing to the people that make up said organization.

TheDemSocialist said:

Can i get your whole corporation drafted to go fight in some foreign country for any reason?

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Not all people go to war. Women don't. So, think of a corporation like a woman that stays at home to run it.

Now, let's see, the deffinition of a corporation in Wikipedia:

Although corporate law varies in different jurisdictions, there are four core characteristics of the business corporation:[6]

* Legal personality

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Legal personality (also artificial personality, juridical personality, and juristic personality) is the characteristic of a non-human entity regarded by law to have the status of a person.

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All of this arguing is playing with the definition of the word.

Morally, corporations are not people. The only language they are concerned about are finances that are in their best interest regardless about the social and environmental consequences. That is not human, sorry.

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So are you taking a more theist stance? Are you saying that it is in human nature to do things for themselves over the other individual? In which case, I would agree. I believe it is in our very nature to screw the other person, for it increases the probability of survival. However, there are other instances where working together increases survival, right?

Just because it is in our view that humanity innately does this to another person, does not mean it is right and it does not mean we give up on becoming a better person. To say, "Well it is in my nature, so I will give up on change" is just lazy.

Corporations are not morale people by any stretch of the imagination.

apdst said:

Why don't we ever hear Libbos complain about how this ruling also applied to labor unions?

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Which ruling are you referring to and what complaints are you expecting?

cpwill said:

if you look at the exchange, he wasn't saying that "corporations are people" in the sense that McDonalds is an individual human being. he was saying "corporations are people" in the sense that corporations are made up of.... people. corporations are soylent green. You can tell, because the next thing out of his mouth is responding to a claim about corporations putting their money in their pockets by saying "exactly, it goes into peoples' pockets".


all the same, this line will probably be twisted and misused ad nauseum, like Margaret Thatchers point about society.

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I am sorry CP, but you cannot redefine the definition of people; you cannot cherry pick behaviors or conditions of the concept and use it for you the benefit of corporations and their apologists. The Supreme Court ruled, but the Supreme Court is wrong. I will predict that the Supreme Court decision will be reversed or circumvented. Corporate personhood is well and truly bull****.

IF corporations were indeed people AIG, Goldman Sachs, Blackwater and a host of other corporation would be in ****ing prison by now. But they are not. Corporate personhood is unquestionably part of the American fascism we are fighting against today.

Risky Thicket said:

I am sorry CP, but you cannot redefine the definition of people; you cannot cherry pick behaviors or conditions of the concept and use it for you the benefit of corporations and their apologists. The Supreme Court ruled, but the Supreme Court is wrong. I will predict that the Supreme Court decision will be reversed or circumvented. Corporate personhood is well and truly bull****.

IF corporations were indeed people AIG, Goldman Sachs, Blackwater and a host of other corporation would be in ****ing prison by now. But they are not. Corporate personhood is unquestionably part of the American fascism we are fighting against today.

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If the current administration cared about our laws, many who belong to those corporations would be in prison today. Who exactly is "we"?

Risky Thicket said:

IF corporations were indeed people AIG, Goldman Sachs, Blackwater and a host of other corporation would be in ****ing prison by now. But they are not. Corporate personhood is unquestionably part of the American fascism we are fighting against today.

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Right on. And therein lies the problem: when is the last time you ever heard of a corporate charter being revoked? You can't jail a corporation when it commits crimes. The corporate organizational sturcure exists to collectivize resources for the benefit of members at the expense of non-members through the externilization of costs. The only purpose a corporation has is to profit - that is not a person. **** 'em, and **** Mitt, thier wannabe schill-in-chief.

1Perry said:

Never mind none of them said or ruled that way. Never let your prejudices get in the way of the facts though.

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You are the one avoiding the facts.

Do we tell people that they can no longer vote because they are a part of a corporation?

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And now you are being silly. At best the comment by Romney was badly worded and you know it. Just admit it and move on. At worst, he is so deluded to think that corporations should have the same rights as people.

Why is it that we can tell them that they can not spend their money as they wish?

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LOL and make the corporatism of the US even worse? Yea why not let Apple spend 50 billion of its cash reserves on one candidate... and then that candidate's first job as President is to ban all non-Apple products in the US...

The problem with US politics is money... politics should be about the people of the nation, not the few who run corporations.

The thread below was not started in reference to Romney but rather was intended to revisit the Citizens United fiasco... however, it's relevant to this discussion as well.

CORPORATE STRUCTURE: Anatomy of the Super Human

Corporations are collectives of individual, living human beings. From the owners to the lowest skilled worker.

Each of those of those biological persons already has equal protection under the constitution, an equal voice, a unique and valued vote, etc.

Granting a corporation personhood, able to "speak" in addition to the voices of it's directors confers the resources of that corporation, and thus it's power and influence to an elite few, giving them in effect unequal power, (access to) representation, and by default creates a second class citizen out of anyone that isn't a corporate director or majority owner.

The argument that Corporations need to be classed as citizens in order to own property, sue and be sued, etc is a non starter. WE write the laws, and all laws written should support the constitution which clearly states that it's existence is to preserve the power of the People. Creating a legal structure that allows these PRIVILEGES to corporations without recognizing them as "People" is well within the abilities of the lawmakers and in keeping with the protections afforded Us in the constitution and bringing a natural wall of separation between business and state.

The natural result of allowing "corporate personhood" to extend unencumbered into the political process is the creation of a remote controlled person capable of exercising super human influence, super human representation subjugating Our merely mortal representation.

On philisophical grounds, the corporation cannot be considered a person, as a person has a definite expiration date (definite as in definitely finite). A person cannot, even in principle only, live forever.

This is NOT a partisan issue. This is a PERSONal issue for each and every one of us.

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Having said that... I'll address the misconceptions rife within this thread...

SANTA CLARA COUNTY v. SOUTHERN PAC. R. CO., 118 U.S. 394 (1886)
FindLaw | Cases and Codes

The ruling in this case did NOT confer personhood to corporations. Follow...

Chief Justice Morrison Waite soundly refutes the idea that this case had any bearing on the personhood of a corporation under the 14th saying in a letter written in response to a request for clarification...

we avoided meeting the constitutional question in the decision

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The ONLY reason this case is of note has nothing to do with court proceedings, but rather with the headnotes entered into case law annals by a REPORTER expressing his non binding understanding and opinion of the ruling, not the intent of the ruling.

It is this headnote from a reporter that is cited, solely, when the question of corporate personhood is afoot. Not the case from which it stems. The case itself, and the chief justice leave the question open to later cases. The travesty is, later cases used the inaccurate understanding of the case illustrated by the headnotes as legal grounds. This... is gross malpractice and every case that has invoked this phantom ruling needs to be revisited.


As a note of interest, the Southern Pacific Railroad was created by an act of congress under the old rules of corporate charters. Charters were given to groups of people capable of engineering projects to large for single entities such as building railroads and canals. These charters were granted under the public trust for with finite limits on the term of their existence with a single goal... serving the public interest and public good.

As a result of this misreading of case law, what was then a single purpose corporation with a mandate to disband once it's charter was completed, grew up to become (S)outhern (P)acific (R)ailroad (Int)ernational... otherwise known as SPRINT

Gotta go, phones ringing...