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Incorporation via the 14th Amendment

While there are plenty of extremes which can be talked about.

Okay, then please don't talk in generalities. Let's consider the specifics of the cases.

The standard mean value is a community which for Christmas puts up a manger scene. That case does not violate any part of the 1st amendment. There is no law violating the rights of the individual in such circumstance.

The First Amendment is a limit on government power. No "violation of the rights of the individual" has to happen for it to be forbidden. It's a violation of the Constitution that matters.

As such, it should be perfectly legal to do. You don't need to display every possible symbol under the sun, it's whatever the community wants since the action of the People of that community does not infringe upon the rights of others.

Ah, but if you tell others they CAN'T put up their own display for their own religion, that's very clearly a violation of the free exercise clause. Now you're telling someone they can't put up a display, not me.
 
The First Amendment is a limit on government power. No "violation of the rights of the individual" has to happen for it to be forbidden. It's a violation of the Constitution that matters.

In the specific case I cited, there is no violation of the Constitution.

Ah, but if you tell others they CAN'T put up their own display for their own religion, that's very clearly a violation of the free exercise clause. Now you're telling someone they can't put up a display, not me.

People are free to display anything they wish. The collective use of public land does not bar anyone from displaying any religious symbol they want on their property. Nor does it prevent anyone from believing in or expressing their own religious beliefs.
 
Ah, but if you tell others they CAN'T put up their own display for their own religion, that's very clearly a violation of the free exercise clause. Now you're telling someone they can't put up a display, not me.
Whereas,

1) religion is the duty which we owe to our creator and the manner and method of discharging it and,

2) the object is to totally excluded the duty we owe to our creator from the cognizance of civil authority,

Shouldn't the test be whether or not the display constitutes an attempt to exercise civil authority over religion, over which God has exclusive and absolute jurisdiction?
 
In the specific case I cited, there is no violation of the Constitution.

Yes, we're back to square one, finally. I don't even remember the specific cases you cited.

People are free to display anything they wish.

People, acting as private citizens, yes. The government, not necessarily.

The collective use of public land does not bar anyone from displaying any religious symbol they want on their property. Nor does it prevent anyone from believing in or expressing their own religious beliefs.[/QUOTE]

True, never said that. Let's stay on topic. This is about the government acting on government property only.
 
Yes, we're back to square one, finally. I don't even remember the specific cases you cited.

As I have mentioned several times, including my post previous to the one you cited, it's a community placing a religious display like a manger scene during Christmas on public land. It's been stated several times now.

True, never said that. Let's stay on topic. This is about the government acting on government property only.

This is about a small community using their public land in a way which does not violate the rights of others. If the government acted alone, outside the consent of the People you'd maybe have a point. But it acts in accordance to the wish of the People and does not construct a law which infringes upon the free expression and practice of religion. As such, it is not unconstitutional.
 
As I have mentioned several times, including my post previous to the one you cited, it's a community placing a religious display like a manger scene during Christmas on public land. It's been stated several times now.

I know, and I could go look it up. But these aren't enough details to make your case. Is the government paying for it? Does the government allow other people in the community to put up similar religious displays for other religions?

This is about a small community using their public land in a way which does not violate the rights of others. If the government acted alone, outside the consent of the People you'd maybe have a point. But it acts in accordance to the wish of the People and does not construct a law which infringes upon the free expression and practice of religion. As such, it is not unconstitutional.

You're doing it again - just because the people approve doesn't make something Constitutional. As you've admitted, the government is bound by the Constitution. This is true no matter what the people want, or how many want it. This is a basic principle, so basic we shouldn't be discussing it over and over.
 
In a way yes, but also no; If people learn to live and act like adults, then we can ignore the little **** that has no effect on our lives (Lawn ornaments) instead of kicking up dust trying to swat at flies that will do no harm to us and will be gone soon enough anyways. :lol: bad analogy?
Good analogy. Trivial BS from petty people takes up far too much of our time.

It woud lbe -wonderful- if we lived in a world where governmnt were not necessary.
 
It's childish for claiming stupid **** is illegal because we're interpreting the law in such a way, keyword here is interpreting. That is however the beauty of the Constitution. It means so many different things to different people. Perhaps it's working TOO well. But better that than not at all.
There is a dfifference between "interpreting" the constition in the context of 'does (article x) apply to (y) situation' and "interpreting" it in the context of 'can we come up with an argument to make (article x) cover situation (y)'.
 
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Good analogy. Trivial BS from petty people takes up far too much of our time.

Yeah, human rights and all that are such a trivial waste of time.
 
There is a dfifference between "interpreting" the constition in the context of 'does (article x) apply to (y) situation' and "interpreting" it in the context of 'can we come up with an argument to make (article x) cover situation (y)'.

That difference might be clear to you and a select IQ bracket, but you should tell everyone else this. Like that guy who started the hubbub about "Under God" being in the Pledge and getting his kids beat up and ridiculed over the ****storm he caused because he didn't want them saying it. :lol:

all in all, you're right.
 
a few general thoughts....

I think that it is important to remember that incorporation was not something which came about immediately upon the ratification of the 14th, nor is there significant evidence in the congressional record to suggest that those who drafted it envisioned it being interpreted to allow for, or even require, incorporation. I think discussion of the 14th Amendment must be grounded in two things. First is an understanding of Reconstruction politics, and second (in the context of the first), is an understanding of American federalism.
It has been suggested by some scholars of federalism that the 14th Amendment essentially transformed the United States from a federal to a quasi-unitary system of government through the doctrine of incorporation. I would agree that this has been the result, but I do not believe that it was the intent. For the intent, I would refer you to Herman Belz, who has suggested that the 14th Amendment was primarily intended to repeal those provisions of the original Constitution which supported slavery. It simply ensured that the freed slaves enjoyed the same rights under the federal Constitution which whites had always been entitled to, while leaving the state-federal relationship unchanged. Records of the congressional debates support this view fairly well, I believe.
As to the question of how we can be said to have any constitutionally protected rights if they are not protected from both the state and federal governments, this brings us to my second point on the nature of American federalism. At the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights, it was fairly well understood that it applied only to the federal government. Evidence of this can be found in the fact (for example) that states were not forced to comply with the 1st Amendment's establishment clause. Official state religions were considered to be state matters. Although all of the states finally did get rid of their official religions, they were not forced to do so under the 1st Amendment. The American federal system, as originally established, permitted the states to manage their own internal affairs almost completely and left the protection of rights at the state level to the people of the states to ensure through their own constitutional arrangements. Incorporation is clearly inconsistent with this idea. It instead imposes what has essentially become federal "baseline" rights which must be applied to the state governments since they are considered to be fundamental and necessary to the concept of ordered liberty.
I believe that there are several problems with this idea. First, it is the manifestation of Madison's fear that in enumerating specific rights we would give the false impression that the enumerated rights were somehow more important than other, unenumerated rights, and that the enumeration was necessary in order to protect them from infringement by the government. This is one of the reasons why Madison initially opposed the addition of a Bill of Rights to the Constitution, and provides the necessary context for understanding the 9th and 10th Amendments.
Second, incorporation is almost entirely subjective and truly does lead us to an inevitable situation of judicial activism and supremacy. Who decides which rights are fundamental, and therefore should be incorporated? What objective criteria are used in making the determination? How can a right be fundamental according to one Court, and found not to be by a succeeding one? Incorporation muddies the constitutional waters by blurring the separation of powers both between the judicial branch and the legislative branch and between the states and the federal government.
Finally, incorporation invites (even greater) political partisanship into constitutional issues. Rather than delineating the boundaries between state and federal authority, incorporation allows the judicial branch to involve itself in what are essentially political matters. The Heller decision and the broader debate over the 2nd Amendment provide a perfect current example. It seems likely to me that the Court will incorporate the 2nd Amendment. While the outcome may be one that I would support, the means of achieving it is not only constitutionally shaky, but also completely unnecessary. We need not find that the individual right to keep and bear arms (as affirmed in Heller) is a fundamental right which must be incorporated in order to preserve it. All that is required is a return to the pre-incorporation understanding of American federalism. That would necessitate the conclusion that federal firearms restrictions are, for the most part, unconstitutional and that the state legislatures are the proper place to fight the battle over gun rights within the states. For those states which have constitutional language which is substantially similar to the 2nd Amendment, we can assume that the state courts would come to a conclusion similar to that which the Supreme Court reached. For those states which do not, the issue, like so many which have been essentially removed from the states' sphere, would be properly fought out within the states. As a conservative, it is likely that I would not like the outcome in some states. However, the imposition of federal rights upon the states should be viewed suspiciously no matter whether they seem to be favorable to liberals or conservatives. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I would make exactly the same argument regarding same-sex marriage. The specific issue is irrelevant. It is the basic constitutional principles which are important.
 
Re: a few general thoughts....

I think that it is important to remember that incorporation was not something which came about immediately upon the ratification of the 14th, nor is there significant evidence in the congressional record to suggest that those who drafted it envisioned it being interpreted to allow for, or even require, incorporation.

Actually, I have seen several references saying that the principal drafter of the 14th, Rep. John Bingham, stated that he intended it to incorporate the Bill of Rights, and said so on the House floor.
 
Re: a few general thoughts....

The creation of "selective incorporation" was directly attributable to Slaughterhouse gutting the privileges or immunities clause of the 14th and leaving only due process protections to apply to challenged law.

Due process demands a case by case inspection of the Amendments and has, IMO, helped pervert the framer's concept of rights and created the mindset of inspecting the Constitution for the existence and scope of our rights as if it is a permission slip.

. . . the 14th Amendment was primarily intended to repeal those provisions of the original Constitution which supported slavery.

That's interesting, I always thought the 13th Amendment did that, you know the one abolishing slavery . . . :confused:

It simply ensured that the freed slaves enjoyed the same rights under the federal Constitution which whites had always been entitled to, while leaving the state-federal relationship unchanged. Records of the congressional debates support this view fairly well, I believe.

The Freedman's Bureau wasn't reporting on federal action depriving Blacks the full scope of rights under the Constitution it was inventorying the abuses of the state governments enforcing their Black Codes using their official state militias to do it . . .

You have a very selective account of history there . . .

Let me guess, Alaska now, originally from Virgina or Nawth Cackalacky????
 
Re: a few general thoughts....

The creation of "selective incorporation" was directly attributable to Slaughterhouse gutting the privileges or immunities clause of the 14th and leaving only due process protections to apply to challenged law.

Quite true, but my point was that there are many scholars who believe that the 14th was not intended to fundamentally change the state-federal relationship in the way that it ultimately has due to incorporation. I absolutely agree, however, that if we must incorporate doing so through the privileges and immunities clause would at least be a much less tortured way of going about it.

Due process demands a case by case inspection of the Amendments and has, IMO, helped pervert the framer's concept of rights and created the mindset of inspecting the Constitution for the existence and scope of our rights as if it is a permission slip.

Also true, but the question is who the Bill of Rights applies to. Surely you're not suggesting that the founders intended it to bind the states? The historical record is quite clear on this. The people's rights were to be protected from the federal government through the federal Constitution, and from the state governments through their state constitutions.



That's interesting, I always thought the 13th Amendment did that, you know the one abolishing slavery . . . :confused:

The 13th only abolishes slavery. It does not, for example, address the question of whether abolition automatically confers the full rights of citizenship. Had this been clearly established, it would not have been necessary to add the 14th.



The Freedman's Bureau wasn't reporting on federal action depriving Blacks the full scope of rights under the Constitution it was inventorying the abuses of the state governments enforcing their Black Codes using their official state militias to do it . . .

I'm not talking about the Freedman's Bureau. I'm referring to the debates on the amendments themselves. It is true that the Bureau's reports influenced Congress to act, but the debates do not by any means suggest that the majority of Congress believed that the result would be incorporation.

You have a very selective account of history there . . .

Let me guess, Alaska now, originally from Virgina or Nawth Cackalacky????

Nice guess, but I've never even lived as far south as Seattle.
 
Thanks for your agreement. I wish you had spoken up earlier, but never mind.



:roll: The First Amendment also doesn't say anything about not requiring people to pray to Allah five times a day. Nothing in it there. So is that allowed?

You are taking strict construction to absurd extremes.

I maintain that putting up religious displays on public land can indeed be "respecting an establishment of religion." The courts have agreed, many times. You can disagree, but this argument doesn't support you at all.
Not if I do it, because I'm not Congress.
 
Not if I do it, because I'm not Congress.

I didn't say you, did I? I meant the government (and it includes a state or local government, as I've shown).

But it could mean you, if the government doesn't allow anyone else to do it but you. They'd just be doing an end-around. The courts aren't dumb enough to fall for that.
 
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