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Thread: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Sure I believe they have the right to be treated equal by the government. This is outlined in the Articles in the Constitution. They are applied equally. The concept of "the government" providing an abstract right such as free speech, keep and bear arms, free religion and expression, is completely different than a supposed right to be served by a person.

    A person of color walks into a restaurant. Claims they have a right to be served. The cook quits and walks out. Are they going to get served? NO. No one is available to make the food to fulfill the assumed "right". They have a lawsuit maybe but not a right.
    A business has the right to refuse to do business with any one, just as a consumer has the same right. A customer has a right to be treated like any other customer. These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm in the e-commerce business. We don't know the ethnic background of our customers. Ethnic background doesn't even enter into our business. Yet I have "fired" customers. I have fired them for credit card chargebacks, attempted theft, actual theft, country of order origin, mistreatment of an employee and any number of reasons that I consider valid and appropriate. If one of them were to complain that I refused their business on minority grounds, it would get nowhere with me.

    I don't know the ethnic background of the customers. But I assume some of the "fired" have been minorities. There are many valid reasons to refuse to do business with a customer or prospective customer. Minority status, however, isn't one of them and shouldn't be one for anybody.

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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    "Civil rights" are not actual rights. They are a set of laws. Your earlier reasoning in the thread is the defining criteria for not being a right. A right can not contain the requirement of being supplied by another person. This would require trampling on one person to provide for the other.
    Civil rights laws certainly burden [some] people because they force them to serve someone they would not otherwise serve. They must do something against their will.
    Sorry, doing business with someone is not a burden. It is the purpose of a business. Lots of valid reasons to refuse to do business with someone. Ethnic background simply isn't a valid one. Hence it is not a burden. Lots of negative things occur in running a business. Successful business people take them in stride and adapt.

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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And serving as customer does not place a burden of the one who does the serving? Apparently you NEVER worked in the restaurant business!!!!
    I have, and I never saw it as a burden, because I was getting paid for doing a certain job. Asking me to do more than what I had agreed to or was reasonable would have been a burden, but not simply doing my job.
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Nope. A restaurant is in the business of serving food to people who want to eat and can pay for the food. Not a burden. A basic purpose of the business.
    That is baloney and you know it. A previous poster said the exercise of a right imposes no cost or burden on anyone else. That is what I am speaking to and to ignore that context is intellectually dishonest in the extreme. When I show up and demand service, that does indeed impose a burden on the person obligated to perform that service.

    here was the original statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    there is no right to material goods and services, because they would lay and cost or burden on another person.
    Last edited by haymarket; 01-11-17 at 12:38 PM.
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    I have, and I never saw it as a burden, because I was getting paid for doing a certain job. Asking me to do more than what I had agreed to or was reasonable would have been a burden, but not simply doing my job.
    But it is indeed a burden imposed on others. For me to exercise my civil right to service in a pubic accommodation, that indeed places a burden on someone else to do something regardless if they want to do it happily or not. And it is that simple reality that proves WRONG the statement from another poster that a right imposes no cost or burden on others.

    here was the original statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    there is no right to material goods and services, because they would lay and cost or burden on another person.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    A business has the right to refuse to do business with any one, just as a consumer has the same right. A customer has a right to be treated like any other customer. These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm in the e-commerce business. We don't know the ethnic background of our customers. Ethnic background doesn't even enter into our business. Yet I have "fired" customers. I have fired them for credit card chargebacks, attempted theft, actual theft, country of order origin, mistreatment of an employee and any number of reasons that I consider valid and appropriate. If one of them were to complain that I refused their business on minority grounds, it would get nowhere with me.

    I don't know the ethnic background of the customers. But I assume some of the "fired" have been minorities. There are many valid reasons to refuse to do business with a customer or prospective customer. Minority status, however, isn't one of them and shouldn't be one for anybody.
    The business owner and the consumer are not equally protected under the law. A consumer can refuse to do business with a place because it is run by gays. No problem. A business can't refuse service to a person based on the same premise. Aren't rights equal among everyone? Read the civil rights act. In the part about businesses, it doesn't even call them rights. And the majority of the civil rights act is based on the interstate commerce clause even though lots of the businesses don't operate across state lines.
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    I have, and I never saw it as a burden, because I was getting paid for doing a certain job. Asking me to do more than what I had agreed to or was reasonable would have been a burden, but not simply doing my job.
    If serving people isn't a burden on you, why did you charge the business to do it? Did you not have other things you would rather have done in that time you spent serving people?
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But it is indeed a burden imposed on others. For me to exercise my civil right to service in a pubic accommodation, that indeed places a burden on someone else to do something regardless if they want to do it happily or not. And it is that simple reality that proves WRONG the statement from another poster that a right imposes no cost or burden on others.
    Only if you assume (incorrectly) it's a right to receive service in a public accommodation. It's not. Which was the original point. It's a privilege protected by law.
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Only if you assume (incorrectly) it's a right to receive service in a public accommodation. It's not. Which was the original point. It's a privilege protected by law.
    The law calls it a right.
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The law calls it a right.
    No it doesn't. The law can be named anything Read the civil rights act of 1964. When it addresses businesses, it doesn't use the term right.
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