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Thread: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

  1. #131
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    I did not say it did. The rights we enjoy in our nation are nothing more than a conscious decision by the founders. I am sure you recall that there was heated debate about them.

    If so why did they not apply to slaves. In the least they also came from nature.

    Man has a lot of abilities which he was born and many of them do not qualify as rights.

    Rights follow the behavious by which we as a society agree to conduct ourselves and nothing else.

    Such as? What right could cost anything?

    To this topic and discussion.

    They also believed that one man can own an other. Was that from higher power too? There is nothing objective about their beliefs.

    I am not certain what you mean here. Please explain.

    Can you cite that?

    Of course they do, especially since both are an extension of us and our will.


    we need to shorten the responses


    no they existed before the founders, even back to the time of Rome.

    slaves were considered property and not people

    name one?, and please dont give me one where you infringe on the rights of other people...ie...like killing someone

    rights follow nature, because they are our natural abilities

    if man made rights on his own accord he would create rights to material goods and services, which lay a cost of burden, and no such right exist.

    the founders made it known that where rights came from objective because they are not from government, but whether or not the came from god, or nature, or what your belief is, that is subjective

    the founders had no power to end slavery within the states, when they did have power they ended it [Northwest Ordinance].

    whether you believe rights are from god, nature, a huge beast beneath the sea, the founders left that up to you its subjective, but they made it objective that rights don't come from man.

    u.s. federal enabling laws recognize the principles of the DOI, and one principal is natural law....the constitution states, the federal courts have authority over things which arise from the constitution, ..rights don't arise from the constitution

    rights do not arise [originate] from the constitution.
    Last edited by Master PO; 01-05-17 at 01:31 PM.

  2. #132
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    negative - meaning no action is required .....its a natural right

    positive - meaning an action is required.........its a civil right/legal right/ privilege of the constitution


    speech is a negative right, because it takes no action from government for me to exercise that right

    being a licensed contractor is positive right, its a privilege, because i must pass exams set by the state and any other requirements so i can receive my license from the state, so the state is giving me something they are preforming an action.
    OK, in terms of EXERCISING any particular right, I can sorta see the point, especially procedural rights.

    In terms of the existence of that right, it doesn't apply. The rights existed before the government.

    Still, pretty much just an exercise in semantics.

  3. #133
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau72 View Post
    OK, in terms of EXERCISING any particular right, I can sorta see the point, especially procedural rights.

    In terms of the existence of that right, it doesn't apply. The rights existed before the government.

    Still, pretty much just an exercise in semantics.
    natural rights go back as far as i have read to the Roman Republic, but i think they also go back to ancient Greece

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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    i brought up both to show the difference

    it means the constitution did not create any rights, life liberty and property is in the constitution twice and they are natural rights.

    they exist because man recognized the abilities he was born with

    rights follow nature which is why no right exist which lays a cost or burden...man making is own rights would

    whether you believe in god thats not important the founders believe rights came for a higher power which is objective , and they made it where they came from subjective,


    it means that the federal law along with the constitutional law states rights are not man made, they do not arise from law and government has no authority over of the rights of Man.
    The Constitution of the United States is the supreme LAW of the land. LAW means that it is protected and enforced by government. Without aggressive government enforcement of these laws, such rights do not exist naturally. They wouldn't last two seconds. That's just how things work in nature. The only "natural law" that exists out in nature is the law of the jungle, where the strong rule and the weak are eaten for lunch. Forget your right to any property, to speak, or assemble, or carry arms. Forget concepts of justice or fairness. In nature, you don't even have the right to breathe if someone stronger than you doesn't want you to. I don't know if that's just how it is or if a creator made those rules, but it is what it is in nature. Human civil societies arose NOT because man embraced this natural law, but because it decided that if the very young, the very old, the vulnerable, the weak, in our society were to have any rights at all, if there was to be any human conception of fairness or justice, it would have to be clearly written out by us and enforced by a rigorous system of government and clear, well-written, strictly enforceable laws.

    Take away those man made laws and man-made government enforcement, and your "natural rights" would go away so fast you wouldn't even know what hit you.
    Last edited by ataraxia; 01-05-17 at 06:52 PM.

  5. #135
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    natural rights go back as far as i have read to the Roman Republic, but i think they also go back to ancient Greece
    Yes. Actually, I believe the first reference to "natural law" is in Aristotle's writings. He thought this natural law included the right to own slaves.

    "In book I of the Politics, Aristotle addresses the questions of whether slavery can be natural or whether all slavery is contrary to nature and whether it is better for some people to be slaves. He concludes that


    "...those who are as different [from other men] as the soul from the body or man from beast—and they are in this state if their work is the use of the body, and if this is the best that can come from them—are slaves by nature. For them it is better to be ruled in accordance with this sort of rule, if such is the case for the other things mentioned.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_slavery

    Aristotle believed that anyone who was not Greek-speaking ("barbarian" by the ancient Greek definition of the term) was a good candidate to be a "natural" slave. He also stated that it was unnatural for women to be involved in political decisions. Their "natural" place was only, in essence, to remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

    It just goes to show how we humans just have a tendency to project our latest cultural norms and beliefs to natural or divine laws. As our cultures, mindsets, and traditions change, so do what we consider to be 'natural" or what our god/gods want.
    Last edited by ataraxia; 01-05-17 at 06:50 PM.

  6. #136
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    The Constitution of the United States is the supreme LAW of the land. LAW means that it is protected and enforced by government. Without aggressive government enforcement of these laws, such rights do not exist naturally. They wouldn't last two seconds. That's just how things work in nature. The only "natural law" that exists out in nature is the law of the jungle, where the strong rule and the weak are eaten for lunch. Forget your right to any property, to speak, or assemble, or carry arms. Forget concepts of justice or fairness. In nature, you don't even have the right to breathe if someone stronger than you doesn't want you to. I don't know if that's just how it is or if a creator made those rules, but it is what it is in nature. Human civil societies arose NOT because man embraced this natural law, but because it decided that if the very young, the very old, the vulnerable, the weak, in our society were to have any rights at all, if there was to be any human conception of fairness or justice, it would have to be clearly written out by us and enforced by a rigorous system of government and clear, well-written, strictly enforceable laws.

    Take away those man made laws and man-made government enforcement, and your "natural rights" would go away so fast you wouldn't even know what hit you.
    Goverment recognizes be have natural rights and Goverment is created for the purpose to secure those rights, that being the end of goverment

  7. #137
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Yes. Actually, I believe the first reference to "natural law" is in Aristotle's writings. He thought this natural law included the right to own slaves.

    "In book I of the Politics, Aristotle addresses the questions of whether slavery can be natural or whether all slavery is contrary to nature and whether it is better for some people to be slaves. He concludes that


    "...those who are as different [from other men] as the soul from the body or man from beast—and they are in this state if their work is the use of the body, and if this is the best that can come from them—are slaves by nature. For them it is better to be ruled in accordance with this sort of rule, if such is the case for the other things mentioned.[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_slavery

    Aristotle believed that anyone who was not Greek-speaking ("barbarian" by the ancient Greek definition of the term) was a good candidate to be a "natural" slave. He also stated that it was unnatural for women to be involved in political decisions. Their "natural" place was only, in essence, to remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

    It just goes to show how we humans just have a tendency to project our latest cultural norms and beliefs to natural or divine laws. As our cultures, mindsets, and traditions change, so do what we consider to be 'natural" or what our god/gods want.
    natural to the romans as well as the founders refers to what is natural to the body

  8. #138
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    natural to the romans as well as the founders refers to what is natural to the body
    Natural to the Romans and to the founders was that women should not be out voting, but remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The ancient Vikings thought that it was natural to die a heroic death while plundering others and that's how you would go to Valhalla and be rewarded by the gods.

    We just project our latest cultural biases and opinions to nature and our deities. It's not the other way around. When our cultures and traditions and worldviews change, so do what we say nature and our gods want.
    Last edited by ataraxia; 01-05-17 at 07:41 PM.

  9. #139
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    Natural to the Romans and to the founders was that women should not be out voting, but remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The ancient Vikings thought that it was natural to die a heroic death while plundering others and that's how you would go to Valhalla and be rewarded by the gods.

    We just project our latest cultural biases and opinions to nature and our deities. It's not the other way around. When our cultures and traditions and worldviews change, so does what we say nature and our gods want.
    Voting in the time of the founders is not a right.

  10. #140
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    Re: Does the Constitution Really Say Freedom of Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    Goverment recognizes be have natural rights and Goverment is created for the purpose to secure those rights, that being the end of goverment
    "Natural" should not mean you need artificial man-made means of enforcement to make it happen.

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