Why we have an electoral college [W:196]

haymarket said:

In those last four posts from you - which part is from the US Constitution?

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its very clear the 4 postings are not discussing the constitution, so were you got that i don't know.

1 difference between a republic and democracy

2 what is a state and if it has a dominate entity what kind of government it is

3 what Elective despotism is......a government were the people direct vote for all their elected representatives

4 john Adams states that a republican form is a Balance of three powers, the Monarchical, Aristocratical, and Democratical

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

The only people who use the term MOB RULE to describe the peaceful and normal results of elections are right wingers misusing the term.


Note that one cannot apply that definition to regular peaceful elections.

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Yes, when the left uses mob rule to usurp the Constitution and individual rights in order to institute their agenda by force then the right is going to call them on it every time. Do you call the death threats against electors regular peaceful elections? I call it one more pathetic example of the left practicing mob rule and intimidation.....

Master PO said:

its very clear the 4 postings are not discussing the constitution, so were you got that i don't know.

1 difference between a republic and democracy

2 what is a state and if it has a dominate entity what kind of government it is

3 what Elective despotism is......a government were the people direct vote for all their elected representatives

4 john Adams states that a republican form is a Balance of three powers, the Monarchical, Aristocratical, and Democratical

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So why is any of that important as the Constitution merely says we must have a republican form of government and a popular vote for president would still be part of a republican form of government?

Re: Why we have an electoral college

jdog said:

Yes, when the left uses mob rule to usurp the Constitution and individual rights in order to institute their agenda by force then the right is going to call them on it every time. Do you call the death threats against electors regular peaceful elections? I call it one more pathetic example of the left practicing mob rule and intimidation.....

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MOB RULE involves lawlessness and violence outside of the normal legal proceedings like regularly scheduled elections with peaceful procedures for voting, counting the votes, and declaring a winner based on those votes.

That term is woefully and seriously blatantly misused in any discussion of this topic.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Why we have an electoral college?

So occasionally we can completely ignore the will of the majority and go with the will of the minority.

Oh yeah...that is what America is all about.

:roll:


Once again, I despised both Clinton AND Trump.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

DA60 said:

Why we have an electoral college?

So occasionally we can completely ignore the will of the majority and go with the will of the minority.

Oh yeah...that is what America is all about.

:roll:


Once again, I despised both Clinton AND Trump.

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:roll:

I see you edited out this line from your original post:


What was the problem with it? Too bigoted? To racist? To inflammatory?

Do you think the will of all people should be represented by those who have been made dependent on government subsidy? Do you think the will of all people should be represented by those who harbor and/or support people living illegally in the US?

The words of those who created the electoral college focused on the problem of groups of people easily bought off by politicians through policy and agenda, and how they could overwhelm the concerns of citizens who would have no connection to those benefits.

In the last election, this influence was laid out in grand display.

I'm curious how this fact can be so easily dismissed in favor of a rather offensive response disconnected from reality.

haymarket said:

So why is any of that important as the Constitution merely says we must have a republican form of government and a popular vote for president would still be part of a republican form of government?

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:doh.........

Centuriate Assembly

[video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centuriate_Assembly[/video]


the Electoral College can be traced to the Centurial Assembly system of the Roman Republic.

[video]http://uselectionatlas.org/INFORMATION/INFORMATION/electcollege_history.php[/video]

haymarket said:

Why are you stating something I did not say in the first place. The goal of the EC is to select a President. One way that is done is to allow a small number of elites to have special powers to override the will of the people if they see fit to do that.

That is obvious by both how it is set up, how it works and the results it produces.

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What elites? I read an interview with some college kid who was a delegate for some state.

Athanasius68 said:

What elites? I read an interview with some college kid who was a delegate for some state.

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And he got to pick the president and you and I did not..... along with 130 million other voters. That makes that college kid one heck of an elite.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

MOB RULE involves lawlessness and violence outside of the normal legal proceedings like regularly scheduled elections with peaceful procedures for voting, counting the votes, and declaring a winner based on those votes.

That term is woefully and seriously blatantly misused in any discussion of this topic.

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WRONG Mob rule is democracy in its purest form. The MOB can after all conduct a vote and declare whatever action they take to be lawful despite its criminality in a moral sense. ONLY through a Constitution can human rights be recognized and protected from mob violence. Constitutional principal must always take the Supreme power over democratic elections for civilization to remain civilized as we have seen time and again over history.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

haymarket said:

We have majority rule with Constitutional rights that protect the minority. So the term MOB RULE for regular elections is simply ridiculous.

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Yes, and an essential part of the "rights that protect the minority" is the electoral college which mitigates/negates mob rule as described in the last post, however without it part of the protective function of the constitutions is wiped away.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

johndylan1 said:

Yes, and an essential part of the "rights that protect the minority" is the electoral college which mitigates/negates mob rule as described in the last post, however without it part of the protective function of the constitutions is wiped away.

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The minority have there protection from the constitution itself. The majority can't just strip them of their personhood and line them up for execution.

The president has limited powers anyway and the minority get there representation from the 2 senate members from each state regardless of population density as well as having people in the house.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

GEIxBattleRifle said:

The minority have there protection from the constitution itself. The majority can't just strip them of their personhood and line them up for execution.

The president has limited powers anyway and the minority get there representation from the 2 senate members from each state regardless of population density as well as having people in the house.

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The president sets the agenda with the bully pulpit, and that is very important in advocating for interests. The regional interests of rural communities are also protected as a minority, not just individuals.
Also: Click back to read my orig post.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

johndylan1 said:

The president sets the agenda with the bully pulpit, and that is very important in advocating for interests. The regional interests of rural communities are also protected as a minority, not just individuals.
Also: Click back to read my orig post.

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All of which are protected and represented in the Senate and house members from those states.

Also: Click back to read my original post.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

. Establishing the Electoral College and the Presidency
The Virginia Plan, introduced by Edmund Randolph on May 29, called for the creation of a National Executive elected by the Congress. On the initial consideration of the proposal, the delegates on June 1, June 2, and June 4 agreed on a single executive who would serve a seven year term and be ineligible for re-election. Some delegates wanted to settle the issue of 1) re-eligibility first, others wanted to 2) fix the length of term before proceeding further, still other delegates wanted to discuss how 3) the executive would be elected before considering anything else, and still other delegates thought 4) that the powers of the President should be the primary question to be settled.

On the first reading, and every time thereafter, the convention agreed to provide the chief executive with a veto subject to Congressional override. (See Judicial Review Theme.) The biggest issue was how to elect the President. On June 9, the delegates defeated a motion to have the President elected by state executives. On June 18, Hamilton surprised the delegates with a proposal for a President for life.

The delegates revisited the four main issues—without settling any one once and for all—involved in the construction of the executive on July 17, 18, 19, 20, 24, and 26. On July 17, the delegates agreed to a single executive elected by the legislature, and to be re-elected rather than serve during good behaviour. On July 18 and 19, the delegates revisited the issue of whether the President should be re-eligible and embraced the idea that perhaps the president should be chosen by electors chosen by state legislatures. On July 20, a proposal permitting the impeachment of the president was approved. On July 24, the delegates returned to the earlier position: the President should be elected by the national legislature. Finally, on July 26, the delegates approved a seven-year term for the President. But he would be ineligible for re-election!

The Committee of Detail Report of August 6, summarized where the delegates stood. On August 24, the delegates turned to the Presidential article and defeated four different modes of electing the President. In the end, the Convention selected members of the Brearly Committee whose objective was to settle outstanding issues. The chief of these was the Presidential clause. On September 4, the Brearly Committee recommended that the Convention support the Electoral College method of choosing a president. On September 6 and 7, the delegates agreed to a four-year renewable term for the President and that he be a natural born citizen. On September 8, the delegates settled the treaty making power and agreed on the impeachment of the President for "high crimes and misdemeanours." Finally, on September 15, the delegates added "the inferior officers clause."

To summarize, the Brearly Committee, composed of Gilman, King, Sherman, Brearly, G. Morris, Dickinson, Carroll, Madison, Williamson, Butler, and Baldwin—a veritable cross-section of the delegates—proposed the adoption of an Electoral College in which both the people and the States are represented in the election of the President. This resolution of the difficult matter of Presidential election clearly meant that the partly national -partly federal model had become the deliberate sense of the convention. This structural compromise—Congress is partly federal and partly national—became the deliberate sense of the community by the end of the Convention. It is the model to which the delegates returned for the resolution of the most durable of issues, namely, the election of the President.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

GEIxBattleRifle said:

All of which are protected and represented in the Senate and house members from those states.

Also: Click back to read my original post.

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The senate and house are only 1/3 of the governmental structure why should that be sufficient for some?

Lutherf said:

The fact of the matter is that we DO elect our president via popular vote but we do so indirectly. Your vote counts at the state level and then the states vote for president. You might not like it but that's the way it works.....and here's why the system was designed that way

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Your explanation is incomplete.

The two votes, popular and electoral, are completely different. The former is popular, that is, of the voting electorate on election day. The total number of votes are counted, verified and announced officially.

The second vote is Winner-take-all, that is, whoever wins the popular vote of a particular state, is assigned the total electoral vote of that state. So, where's the problem?

The problem derives from the fact that the number of voters in the electoral college is not proportionately representative of the total voters in the state. It cannot be because the electoral vote is NOT IN THE SAME PROPORTION AS THE POPULAR VOTE IN THE STATES.

For both sides of the same question:
*Time to End the Electoral College, extract:

By overwhelming majorities, Americans would prefer to elect the president by direct popular vote, not filtered through the antiquated mechanism of the Electoral College. They understand, on a gut level, the basic fairness of awarding the nation’s highest office on the same basis as every other elected office — to the person who gets the most votes.

But for now, the presidency is still decided by 538 electors. And on Monday, despite much talk in recent weeks about urging those electors to block Donald Trump from the White House, a majority did as expected and cast their ballots for him — a result Congress will ratify next month.

And so for the second time in 16 years, the candidate who lost the popular vote has won the presidency. Unlike 2000, it wasn’t even close. Hillary Clinton beat Mr. Trump by more than 2.8 million votes, or 2.1 percent of the electorate. That’s a wider margin than 10 winning candidates enjoyed and the biggest deficit for an incoming president since the 19th century.

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Yes, Mr. Trump won under the rules, but the rules should change so that a presidential election reflects the will of Americans and promotes a more participatory democracy.

The vote is therefore Not Democratic and is both unfair and wrong, wrong, wrong. The Popular Vote in a democracy is the ONLY VOTE of consequence. There is no other.

Thus, in the history of the nation, we have erroneously elected six presidents.

Further reading:
*Time to End the Electoral College
*The Electoral College Is Anything But Outdated. No extract is available.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

johndylan1 said:

The senate and house are only 1/3 of the governmental structure why should that be sufficient for some?

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So no one from Utah or Kansas for example are in the other 2/3 of the government?

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

To summarize, the Brearly Committee, composed of Gilman, King, Sherman, Brearly, G. Morris, Dickinson, Carroll, Madison, Williamson, Butler, and Baldwin—a veritable cross-section of the delegates—proposed the adoption of an Electoral College in which both the people and the States are represented in the election of the President. This resolution of the difficult matter of Presidential election clearly meant that the partly national -partly federal model had become the deliberate sense of the convention. This structural compromise—Congress is partly federal and partly national—became the deliberate sense of the community by the end of the Convention. It is the model to which the delegates returned for the resolution of the most durable of issues, namely, the election of the President.

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Good historical recount of what happened. Though the description of "the partly national, and partly federal model had become the deliberate sense of the convention" is an improper description of today's reality. The reality of democracy is a lot simpler. The popular-vote wins elections for both the Executive and Legislative bodies. Period. No "historical compromise" is necessary.

I maintain that "history" makes for good reading, but as regards the Electoral College it shows how a country can remain so attached to history that it overlooks its most perverse dysfunctional but possible consequence. That is, a fraudulent election.

The popular vote is the mainstay manner of electing our Executive and Legislative representatives.

Why is the US "hung-up" on a winner-take-all Electoral College, which can either emphasize the winner's vote-margin or completely upend the popular-vote decision as happened on Nov. 8th? Are we genuflecting nostalgically to our history as a nation, forgetting entirely the notion that the popular-vote is the ONLY true indication of the voters' will?

Without understanding how damaging it can be to a real democracy when, in such times as ours, the voting process can be manipulated so easily*?

Think of the number of Americans, especially amongst the poorest, who look upon this election as "stolen from them".

*Most countries in the EU allow only limited time for political advertizing, and it is always at the same time of day.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Lafayette said:

Good historical recount of what happened. Though the description of "the partly national, and partly federal model had become the deliberate sense of the convention" is an improper description of today's reality. The reality of democracy is a lot simpler. The popular-vote wins elections for both the Executive and Legislative bodies. Period. No "historical compromise" is necessary.

I maintain that "history" makes for good reading, but as regards the Electoral College it shows how a country can remain so attached to history that it overlooks its most perverse dysfunctional but possible consequence. That is, a fraudulent election.

The popular vote is the mainstay manner of electing our Executive and Legislative representatives.

Why is the US "hung-up" on a winner-take-all Electoral College, which can either emphasize the winner's vote-margin or completely upend the popular-vote decision as happened on Nov. 8th? Are we genuflecting nostalgically to our history as a nation, forgetting entirely the notion that the popular-vote is the ONLY true indication of the voters' will?

Without understanding how damaging it can be to a real democracy when, in such times as ours, the voting process can be manipulated so easily*?

Think of the number of Americans, especially amongst the poorest, who look upon this election as "stolen from them".

*Most countries in the EU allow only limited time for political advertizing, and it is always at the same time of day.

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the EC is part of our mixed government system based onto roman republic its purpose is to PREVENT a democratic form of government.

why do you not read the founders and what they created?

Re: Why we have an electoral college

SYSTEM OF NATIONAL GOVERNANCE

johndylan1 said:

The senate and house are only 1/3 of the governmental structure why should that be sufficient for some?

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Our system of governance, which originated in debates during the 18th and 19th centuries between French and American anti-monarchists, what evolved was the necessity of a balance of powers. (Plural).

That is, the three instances of governance (the Executive, the Legislative and the Judiciary) should all be separated and equal. This was due to the fact that under monarchs at the time, all three were in the hands of the sovereign head of state. Which meant effectively that they had "total rule". Moreover, said rule was manifested by the fact that they were crowned in a cathedral and therefore "blessed by God".

How more politically absolute can a nation get?

It is because of this "absolutism" that the finest minds on this planet at the time decided to separate the powers of state.

MY POINT?

Ever since Reckless Ronnie's administration, politics has got ugly in America. Why? Because by lowering upper-income taxation as he did (see here) he opened the gates to immense Wealth for a comparatively select few.

Which has caused the enormous Imbalance of Wealth in the US:


Americans have to be damn fools to accept such a rip-off ...

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Lafayette said:

SYSTEM OF NATIONAL GOVERNANCE



Our system of governance, which originated in debates during the 18th and 19th centuries between French and American anti-monarchists, what evolved was the necessity of a balance of powers. (Plural).

That is, the three instances of governance (the Executive, the Legislative and the Judiciary) should all be separated and equal. This was due to the fact that under monarchs at the time, all three were in the hands of the sovereign head of state. Which meant effectively that they had "total rule". Moreover, said rule was manifested by the fact that they were crowned in a cathedral and therefore "blessed by God".

How more politically absolute can a nation get?

It is because of this "absolutism" that the finest minds on this planet at the time decided to separate the powers of state.

MY POINT?

Ever since Reckless Ronnie's administration, politics has got ugly in America. Why? Because by lowering upper-income taxation as he did (see here) he opened the gates to immense Wealth for a comparatively select few.

Which has caused the enormous Imbalance of Wealth in the US:
View attachment 67212281

Americans have to be damn fools to accept such a rip-off ...

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you leave out 1 important fact...in creating our government..... the house represents the people, the senate represents the state governments, and the EC presents both the people and the states government....the USSC is appointed by the president who is to present the both the people and the states.

if the u.s. is supposed to be about the people and nothing else where is the balance?...

the u.s. was never intented to be a democratic form of government, so why are to whining because its not?

the founders ,make it clear they didn't fight a war to create a government of elective despotism........a federal government where only the people elect all 3 officials, but only 1 1/2, the states elect the other 1 1/2

federalist 48--An ELECTIVE DESPOTISM was not the government we fought for; but one which should not only be founded on free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among several bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits, without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.


Definition of ELECTIVE
1a : chosen or filled by popular election <an elective official>
b : of or relating to election
c : based on the right or principle of election

Despotism is a form of government in which a single entity rules with absolute power.

the founders state they did not fight a war to create a government of an elective despotism, a government of the people holding ALL absolute power, a will of the people

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

the EC is part of our mixed government system based onto roman republic its purpose is to PREVENT a democratic form of government.

why do you not read the founders and what they created?

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I have read about the "founders" and what they created and "how" they created it.

Do you know that from 1776 to 1789 both Franklin and Jefferson lived in Paris where they met with the French revolutionaries. It was from these cerebral discussions that both Franklin and Jefferson brought back to the US some key ideas for the New Republic*.

Just because the document called the Constitution evolved over the years does not mean that all its amendments are correct today. The world moves on and we, as a people, move on with it.

The Electoral College was, is and will be tomorrow a Great Mistake. It is a transgression upon the very notion of "democracy" founded upon the "majority" of the popular-vote, which decides the Executive and the Legislature. The 17th Amendment that constitutes the Electoral College is a travesty of justice. Only the majority winner of the popular vote is duly elected in a nation.[/COLOR]

It should be done away with ...

*Btw, the restaurant in which they met is still open in the Latin Quarter. It is called "Le Precope". It was in this café - the oldest in the world to be continuously open since its inception in 1686 - that the alliance between France and the new US, which would be key to wining the War of Independence, was formulated.

Re: Why we have an electoral college

Master PO said:

the u.s. was never intented to be a democratic form of government, so why are to whining because its not?

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Your sense of democracy is beyond the pale. A democratic governance has three central elements: the Executive, the Legislative and the Judiciary. The first two are duly elected at the national level, the third only at state or local levels.

Just how many times must you be told in order to understand the fundamentals of a democracy?

Moving right along ...