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Thread: Why we have an electoral college [W:196]

  1. #21
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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    NO - neither you nor I nor any person on the planet can tell us where the two million extra for Clinton came from and point to a place giving it that credit. It simply does NOT work that way.

    In 2010, I was the campaign manager for a candidate for the Michigan House. The district had about 80,000 residents of which about 3,500 were actual active primary voters. Picture a district that is five inches high and three inches across. Now divide that up into about 50 different precincts of varying sizes but none abnormal large nor small. Now each district had potential voters in it. Some had very low numbers - twenty to thirty people. Some had large numbers - over 150 to just over 200 in a few. We had to decide where to campaign.

    So we made two decisions:
    1- We would first hit every single house with am identified primary voter. That would be somebody who had voted in the primary in the last election or in the previous two before that.
    2- We drew a large block capitol C on the map that extended about one inch wide to one and a half inches wide going from the upper right north corner to the left, on down and then across the bottom. That is where
    3- most of the voters lived
    4- our identified most receptive areas were

    And we knocked on just over 10,000 doors in five months time and hit every single house we indentified. In the Block C we hit those several times.... some twice, some three times, and in really important precincts - even four times.

    And on primary election day, in a field of nine candidates, we won over the expected second place finisher by 70 votes.

    Now I can tell you which precincts voted heavy for us and where we won. And i can tell which we lost and did not do well in. But I cannot tell you exactly where those 70 winning votes came from. Nobody can.

    A national campaign is no different than that. Every state gave Clinton votes and every county in every state gave Clinton votes. Any of those from any place could have been some of those 2 million she got more than Trump.

    So please, lets all stop this falsehood from being repeated yet again.
    Don't be silly. If a given precinct, legislative district, county, state or whatever swings heavily toward one candidate while all others are relatively close then that's where the overage came from. In this case there were two metropolitan areas that accounted for nearly 3 million more Clinton votes than Trump votes. Those cities alone account for Clinton beating Trump in the popular vote.

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    its true the EC does have purpose, and that is to prevent a democratic vote of the people for president because the founders were creating a republic, and not a democracy.
    Actually Hamilton says it is to allow those few elite who know and can be trusted to make that decision over the people.

    It has nothing to do with a democracy because a popular vote electing the President would not be democracy anyways so your comment is both factually wrong as well as irrelevant.
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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Don't be silly. If a given precinct, legislative district, county, state or whatever swings heavily toward one candidate while all others are relatively close then that's where the overage came from. In this case there were two metropolitan areas that accounted for nearly 3 million more Clinton votes than Trump votes. Those cities alone account for Clinton beating Trump in the popular vote.
    How do you know where each of those votes fits in to the Clinton 64 million?
    YOU DON'T.

    So tell me, in my election case that I gave details about, which precinct supplied the 72 winning votes?
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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How do you know where each of those votes fits in to the Clinton 64 million?
    YOU DON'T.

    So tell me, in my election case that I gave details about, which precinct supplied the 72 winning votes?
    We're only talking about the absolute number of votes to the extent that there is a large distribution to one side or the other in a given district. If you've dealt with campaigns at the local level you know exactly how this works. You review the precincts where your party was even or overperformed and you target those precincts to make up for the precincts you know you're going to lose. Clinton overperformed by HUGE margins in NYC and LA but seriously underperformed damned near everywhere else. That's why she lost.

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We're only talking about the absolute number of votes to the extent that there is a large distribution to one side or the other in a given district. If you've dealt with campaigns at the local level you know exactly how this works. You review the precincts where your party was even or overperformed and you target those precincts to make up for the precincts you know you're going to lose. Clinton overperformed by HUGE margins in NYC and LA but seriously underperformed damned near everywhere else. That's why she lost.
    Oh - I agree you can tell where one does well and where one does not. No problem. But when you win by 72 votes out of over 50 precincts and thousands of votes - you have no idea where exactly those votes came from. They came from everywhere the same as Clintons 64 million. If somebody wants to say its because she did so well in California and that is the two million vote margin - I can say NO its not - its her vote from a collection o states where she lost and nobody can prove either one of us is right or wrong.

    You see - at its core is people on the Trump side wanting to claim that we have to defend the EC because otherwise California or New York would pick the President. And that is nonsense also.

    Do you realize that right now today under the mechanism of the EC, it takes only 12 states to pick the President and all one need do is get one single vote from a voter in each of those 12 states? And if that winning candidate is not even on the ballot and loses the whole horse race by 50 million total - they still become President?

    That is the screwy system we have today. 38 states are irrelevant.
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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually Hamilton says it is to allow those few elite who know and can be trusted to make that decision over the people.

    It has nothing to do with a democracy because a popular vote electing the President would not be democracy anyways so your comment is both factually wrong as well as irrelevant.
    Hamilton does not say elites
    Yes it would be democracy, which is a Great Evil as a form of goverment.

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    the founders talked over the election of the president, and having the people direct the president would be the best choice in a practical sense, however Madison knew it would not work, this is why he advocates for mixed government concerning the president and the senate, because people are easily lead seduced and beguiled into doing things which are not in their interest, which is why democracy fails.

    the top part is Madison , where it see Mr. Madison...... the bottom part is someone's commentary on Madison.

    voting in early America is not a right, its privilege of government, to vote you have to own land and pay taxes, slaves, women did not vote, white people who did not meet the Qualifications requisites by the state could not vote either.

    3/5th clause was a compromise of the north and south, with the south at first wanting slaves to count as 1 because they knew they would get more representation in the house, but the north stated if slaves are 1 person, then they cannot be slaves they have to be free men, which the south rejected.

    also if they had been counted as 1, while the south would receive more representation, they would have had to paid more in taxes to the federal government.

    our mixed government which is 1 of our separation of powers is modeled off of the roman empire to prevent tyranny of the majority
    error in posting..... should be Read Roman republic, not Roman empire

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And why let a little thing like historical truth to get in the way of that modern explanation?

    Here is Alexander Hamilton from his Federalist 68 explaining why have the Electoral College



    Hamilton says it was to give the actual choice - not to people regardless of where they lived - but to men most capable ... men who had the information and discernment necessary to pick somebody they liked if the masses picked somebody who failed to meet with the approval of this elite body so empowered.

    In simple English - the Constitution created the EC to thwart the will of the people if this elite body did not like the will of the people.

    No nonsense about who lives where or the city mouse and the country mouse and all that goes with it.

    Se lets all get on the same page of reality here as to why we really have the EC.
    I think we should all get on the same page and realize we do have the EC and live with the results of the election.
    Quote Originally Posted by Praxas View Post
    trump supporters just keep proving what pieces of **** they really are. Thank you for proving me correct. The only thing worse than a trump supporter would be a piece of **** who tries to claim their black and not.

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    the electoral college is not a failure per the founders, the problem today is the electors are elected by the parties, in early america the people elected the electors.

    dont blame the system, put the blame where it belongs, on the parities.
    The system has been corrupted, but it was corrupted a long time ago before the modern parties really took form. Starting in the 1820's, the system began taking on the "winner-take-all" method. By 1836, South Carolina was the only state that didn't use this method.

    In 1872 it became universal, where every state used the "winner-take-all" system.Colorado in 1876 was the last state to use the legislature to pick the electors.

    The electoral college is a failure because it has almost never done what it was intended to do: have the most capable people doing the voting.

    It's a design flaw.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    Hamilton does not say elites
    Yes it would be democracy, which is a Great Evil as a form of goverment.
    He describes them so perfectly so as you could use his words to define ELITES in the dictionary.

    Very small groups of men selected for their discernment and knowledge to perform the task of electing the President rather than the people who voted is by nature an elite group.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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