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Thread: Why we have an electoral college [W:196]

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Your sense of democracy is beyond the pale. A democratic governance has three central elements: the Executive, the Legislative and the Judiciary. The first two are duly elected at the national level, the third only at state or local levels.

    Just how many times must you be told in order to understand the fundamentals of a democracy?

    Moving right along ...
    the u.s. was not created a democratic form of government ,read your constitution article 4 section 4

    still you make statements on government you know nothing about


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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    the u.s. was not created a democratic form of government ,read your constitution article 4 section 4
    Article 4 Section 4: T
    he United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government
    From the dictionary:
    republic: noun
    1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
    2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
    3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.

    democracy:
    1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
    2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
    3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
    4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
    5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.
    They are very much the same, just expressed differently. Line 1 in both definitions are almost identical.

    And this exchange has nothing whatsoever to do with the original subject, which was "Electoral College" ...
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by GEIxBattleRifle View Post
    So no one from Utah or Kansas for example are in the other 2/3 of the government?
    HUH? What? You obviously didn't understand the point.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Article 4 Section 4: T

    From the dictionary:


    They are very much the same, just expressed differently. Line 1 in both definitions are almost identical.

    And this exchange has nothing whatsoever to do with the original subject, which was "Electoral College" ...
    if its a republican form then it cant be a democratic form of government can it?

    the u.s., was created to be a republican form of government which is mixed, mixed government is not democracy

    and it has been stated to you and with links the at the EC IS BASED ON THE ROMAN REPUBLIC OF GOVERNMENT....Rome was not democracy


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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
    if its a republican form then it cant be a democratic form of government can it?

    the u.s., was created to be a republican form of government which is mixed, mixed government is not democracy

    and it has been stated to you and with links the at the EC IS BASED ON THE ROMAN REPUBLIC OF GOVERNMENT....Rome was not democracy
    I stick to the definitions as I find them in the dictionary. The US is both a republic and a democracy.

    Period.
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    HUH? What? You obviously didn't understand the point.
    It seems you don't even understand the point you were trying to make as indicated by the fact you have problems explaining it in this message here. It's most likely either a deflection from what was being talked about or something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Hanging your hat entirely on the CURRENT legality of something you want to be legal and others want to make illegal does not constitute a salient argument. At all.
    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    What is "alive" and how does it apply to the fetus?

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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    I stick to the definitions as I find them in the dictionary. The US is both a republic and a democracy.

    Period.
    ...


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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Mentality between republic and democracy

    Aristotle does not use the word democracy and republic interchangeably; neither does Socrates in Plato's Republic.

    Aristotle defines a republic as the rule of law. "...it is preferable for the law to rule rather than any one of the citizens, and according to this same principle, even if it be better for certain men to govern, they must be appointed as guardians of the laws and in subordination to them;... the law shall govern seems to recommend that God and reason alone shall govern..." Thomas Jefferson beseeched his countrymen to "bind men down from mischief by the chains of the constitution".

    A democracy's mentality is that the people are sovereign and have become a law unto themselves wherefore the phrase vox populi, vox dei. The mentality of Despotism, as it can be seen in the Asian kings of the Pharoahs, Babylonians and Persians, Alexander the Great, his successors and the Roman Emperors starting with Julius Caesar, is that the king or Emperor makes the law so he is God. For the Spartan mindset, the Law, the golden mean, is to rule not men collectively or singly as the Spartan King advises Xerxes at the Battle of Thermopylae, to wit, "The point is that although they're free, they're not entirely free; their master is the law, and they're far more afraid of this than your men are of you. At any rate, they do whatever the law commands...". A man's obedience, loyalty, and fidelity lie in the law and not in persons; the Spartan mindset being, "I'm obedient to the law but under no man".

    Aristotle notices that a democracy puts the people above the law: "men ambitious of office by acting as popular leaders bring things to the point of the people's being sovereign even over the laws."

    When the law loses respect, Aristotle says in V vii 7 that "constitutional government turns into a democracy". And in that situation, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle fear the possibility that "Tyranny, then arises from no other form of government than democracy." Then, democracies are no more than ochlocracies.


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    Re: Why we have an electoral college

    Gene Owens
    Constitutional Law
    Back to Basics I

    What is the Constitution? The Constitution is a contract. The Constitution/contract contains seven short articles, twenty-seven amendments and the Declaration of Independence is tied to the Constitution under article seven. The Constitution was signed on September 17, 1787 by delegates from twelve colonies. Rhode Island, the thirteenth colony, signed later.
    In Article 4 Section 4 the Constitution directs: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government,. . ." This article is not referring to any party. There is no party system outlined in the Constitution either in fact or in principle. The word republican is referring to the word republic, which comes from the Latin words res publica; res meaning thing and publica meaning public, the public thing is the law.

    One of the most misunderstood and therefore harmful beliefs, to our freedoms, is that millions of American People falsely believe America is a democracy, with rule by majority vote. Article IV Section 4 clearly guarantees every State shall be a republic, there is nothing to argue about. Because Article IV Section 4 defines our form of government as a republic it will remain a republic until an Article V amendment changes that fact. Republic means to rule by law and in America our law is Constitutional Law. All of our representatives take an Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution and therefore Constitutional Law. When you read the Constitution you are actually studying Constitutional Law.
    The misunderstanding, that our form of government is a democracy has been intentional to take freedoms, not to give freedoms. In reality our Founders set up a mixed-constitution, to check the powers of government, with elements of different forms of government in it. We have elements of monarchy or rule by one vested in the president to veto bills and to give pardons. We have elements of oligarchy or rule by few vested in federal and state legislatures to make laws. We have elements of democracy vested in the People to elect our representatives. However, all of these different forms of government must stay within the boundary (pale) and understanding (ken) of the republic, rule by law, or their actions are null and void and of no effect whatsoever.

    Article VI Clause 2 directs that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and all treaties and laws must be made within the pale and ken of the Constitution. This same article and clause also directs that all judges in every State shall be bound by the Constitution.
    Another interesting fact is that the Constitution is a document or perfect distribution or perfect equipoise; meaning one clause cannot and must not be read as if to stand alone. When our representatives plan a redistribution of the Peoples money, for any reason, under pretense of the commerce clause or the welfare clause they must also look to Article I Section 1 and Section 8, the 5th Amendment, the 9th Amendment and the 10th Amendment.
    Article I Section 1 does not allow Congress to do anything that is not an enumerated power; Section 8 list all the powers Congress can act upon; the 5th Amendment forbids the taking of the Peoples money (property) without just compensation; under the 9th Amendment the government has no no right to take property and under the 10th Amendment they have no power to take property.

    The Declaration of Independence is not considered law; however, it does point out certain very important issues, such as: our Rights are unalienable and that our Rights are endowed by a Creator. It is fashionable among some Americans today to disregard this statement. To declare that there is no proof of a Creator; however, no man can disprove the existence of a Creator. The words unalienable and inalienable both mean that which cannot be changed, not by majority vote or by a dictator. This statement also directs that are our Rights are endowed by a Creator and not by man.
    Clearly our Founding Fathers gave each of us religious freedom to believe as we chose; however, their point was not in what you personally believe but in the fact that man did not create existence. That Rights come from Nature and Nature's God, as written by Thomas Jefferson, in the Declaration of Independence. No government can control Nature and change the course of our unalienable Rights.


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    Re: Why we have an electoral college [W:196]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    There was a lot of discussion regarding the fact that Hillary won the popular vote and should therefore have won the election. The fact of the matter is that we DO elect our president via popular vote but we do so indirectly. Your vote counts at the state level and then the states vote for president. You might not like it but that's the way it works.....and here's why the system was designed that way -

    Politico has the popular vote count at 62.5M for Hillary and 61.2 M for Trump. That's a difference of 1.3M votes and I've heard suggestions that the final total will be Hillary by more than 2 million votes. That's a pretty compelling argument but if you look into it:

    PRESIDENT
    From the LA County Recorder's office, Hillary got over 2.1 million votes in the county while Trump got less than 700k.

    That alone is 1.4 million of Hillary's overage.

    Here's the NY Times figures for NY.
    http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/new-york

    The 5 Boroughs that are generally considered to be New York City are Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten Island. If you look at the votes in those boroughs you'll find that Hillary beat Trump by 1.5 Million votes.

    Just TWO CITIES accounted for roughly 150% of Hillary's popular vote win.

    THAT, folks, is why we have an electoral college. It prevents the possibility that voters in just two cities can control the election of a president.
    why should i want less people spread further apart controlling elections instead?

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