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Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?[343]

Are explosives covered by the Second Amendment?

  • Yes. The right to bear arms is not limited to type of weapon.

    Votes: 11 23.4%
  • No. There is no constitutional right to own bombs.

    Votes: 26 55.3%
  • Technically, yes. The constitution should be amended to prohibit bombs.

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • Yes. The Supreme Court should use jurisprudence and make them illegal.

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • other

    Votes: 8 17.0%

  • Total voters
    47

Smeagol

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I realize its probably not a good idea in a practical sense, but pursuant to the letter of the law; should the private manufacture, sales and ownership of explosive devices be constitutionally protected under the Second Amendment?
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

I think explosives were covered, implied. But that was 1787 and this is now. In 1787 it would have been powder of some sort, it seems to me.

But today is different with what's available today. Good question, and it's running right at 50-50
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

nope... do to the nature of explosives, they cannot be utilized judiciously and in keeping with the purpose of individual arms.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

For people who voted yes; would you need to ensure the "ability" to handle such chemicals to ensure public safety or no, anyone should have the right?
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

As far as I'm concerned ICBM nuclear bombs are covered by the 2nd amendment but we have to be realistic and compromise on some things..

As of now we have compromised too much already..
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

For people who voted yes; would you need to ensure the "ability" to handle such chemicals to ensure public safety or no, anyone should have the right?

that's the thing about explosives.. you can't control them the way you can control a bullet ( shrapnel doesn't' care where you want it to go, you can't aim shrapnel,...it will go wherever the laws of physics tell it to go )...if utilized, there's simply no way to ensure public safety ( other than removing the public from the area it's utilized in)
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Bombs are "ordinance," not arms.

They can be regulated.

I don't mind that at all. I have my copy of the original Anarchist Cookbook and if it ever comes to a revolution, I think I can successfully wing it. ;)
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

I have my copy of the original Anarchist Cookbook and if it ever comes to a revolution, I think I can successfully wing it. ;)

Don't ya just love that 1st amendment :)
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

that's the thing about explosives.. you can't control them the way you can control a bullet ( shrapnel doesn't' care where you want it to go, you can't aim shrapnel,...it will go wherever the laws of physics tell it to go )...if utilized, there's simply no way to ensure public safety ( other than removing the public from the area it's utilized in)
yes, and the amount of damage done could be exponentially higher
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

The more you learn about chemistry, the more more you learn that, trying to regulate explosives is about as useful as regulating birds or dirt.
The tools to make them are so common, the law is usually just a punitive measure after they're used.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Bombs are "ordinance," not arms.

They can be regulated.

I don't mind that at all. I have my copy of the original Anarchist Cookbook and if it ever comes to a revolution, I think I can successfully wing it. ;)

But ordinance is/are indeed arms.

arms
ärmz/Submit
noun
1.
weapons and ammunition; armaments.
"they were subjugated by force of arms"
synonyms: weapons, weaponry, firearms, guns, ordnance, artillery, armaments, munitions, matériel
"the illegal export of arms"
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

But ordinance is/are indeed arms.

arms
ärmz/Submit
noun
1.
weapons and ammunition; armaments.
"they were subjugated by force of arms"
synonyms: weapons, weaponry, firearms, guns, ordnance, artillery, armaments, munitions, matériel
"the illegal export of arms"

That's right...
The 2nd amendment was designed to protect everything necessary for a citizens militia to be able to form and effectively wage war..
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

But ordinance is/are indeed arms.

arms
ärmz/Submit
noun
1.
weapons and ammunition; armaments.
"they were subjugated by force of arms"
synonyms: weapons, weaponry, firearms, guns, ordnance, artillery, armaments, munitions, matériel
"the illegal export of arms"

I've explained the difference in relation to the "right to keep and bear arms" many times in other threads, of which you are well-aware. I'm tired of repeating myself. I'll let others explain this time. :shrug:

Suffice it to say as an ardent supporter of the 2-A I have no problem with regulating access to bombs, grenades, TOW's, Dragons, nuclear weapons, battleships....basically one-use area effect weapons and crew-served items.

If we ever need them we could either make some or take them from those we defeat in guerrilla warfare.
 
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Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

I realize its probably not a good idea in a practical sense, but pursuant to the letter of the law; should the private manufacture, sales and ownership of explosive devices be constitutionally protected under the Second Amendment?



Whether explosives in general are protected by the 2a is subject to debate. Certainly explosive propellants are, as that is what is used to propel bullets in firearms, though modern "gun powder" is not a high explosive like old fashion black powder.

But in terms of highly explosive substances, such as dynamite and C4, and bombs and mines and whatnot, Strict Scrutiny gives us the answer....


Necessary to the preservation of society, not merely preferred...
... narrowly construed...
... least restrictive means of achieving the necessary goal...


Explosives are inherently dangerous... high explosives that is. Merely storing dynamite or other EX is perilous if not maintained carefully... some explosives can detonate spontaneously under certain conditions. So unlike firearms this is something mere POSSESSION can be dangerous to the neighborhood even if it is just sitting in a shed.

Secondly, the mass effect and indiscriminate nature of explosives-as-weapon makes it exceedingly difficult to use for self-defense purposes in a lawful manner. "Collateral damage" was not a term in our lexicon until after explosives.

However, explosives are not entirely banned. You have to have appropriate qualifications and a legitimate use for them to obtain them... they are regulated.


This is probably the appropriate way for a free society to handle something that dangerous.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Whether explosives in general are protected by the 2a is subject to debate. Certainly explosive propellants are, as that is what is used to propel bullets in firearms, though modern "gun powder" is not a high explosive like old fashion black powder.

But in terms of highly explosive substances, such as dynamite and C4, and bombs and mines and whatnot, Strict Scrutiny gives us the answer....


Necessary to the preservation of society, not merely preferred...
... narrowly construed...
... least restrictive means of achieving the necessary goal...


Explosives are inherently dangerous... high explosives that is. Merely storing dynamite or other EX is perilous if not maintained carefully... some explosives can detonate spontaneously under certain conditions. So unlike firearms this is something mere POSSESSION can be dangerous to the neighborhood even if it is just sitting in a shed.

Secondly, the mass effect and indiscriminate nature of explosives-as-weapon makes it exceedingly difficult to use for self-defense purposes in a lawful manner. "Collateral damage" was not a term in our lexicon until after explosives.

However, explosives are not entirely banned. You have to have appropriate qualifications and a legitimate use for them to obtain them... they are regulated.


This is probably the appropriate way for a free society to handle something that dangerous.

Thanks. I get tired of explaining. ;)
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

This is stupid, you can make a bomb with basic chemistry and all the chemicals are readily available, its knowing how to mix them and keep them stable.

Regulate away, its not going to stop the people that really want to make bombs from doing so. I wont even argue the constitutionality of it, no one is going to use explosives for self defense. Don't they already regulate explosives anyway?
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

I've explained the difference in relation to the "right to keep and bear arms" many times in other threads, of which you are well-aware. I'm tired of repeating myself. I'll let others explain this time. :shrug:

Suffice it to say as an ardent supporter of the 2-A I have no problem with regulating access to bombs, grenades, TOW's, Dragons, nuclear weapons, battleships....basically one-use area effect weapons and crew-served items.

If we ever need them we could either make some or take them from those we defeat in guerrilla warfare.

Nothing personal with you Captain - but the entire artificial distinction the right tries to make is simply fantasy so they can admit that government should regulate some arms but still give them the legroom to say they should not regulate guns. Its dishonest in the extreme and nothing in the Constitution separates those things.

Its intellectually dishonest and is merely a tactic to allow them to NOT suffer the mocking and humiliating attacks upon the gross stupidity of claiming that somebody should be able to have bombs and ordinance and artillery and nukes. To be frank, ARMS ARE ARMS. Period.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Nothing personal with you Captain - but the entire artificial distinction the right tries to make is simply fantasy so they can admit that government should regulate some arms but still give them the legroom to say they should not regulate guns. Its dishonest in the extreme and nothing in the Constitution separates those things.

Its intellectually dishonest and is merely a tactic to allow them to NOT suffer the mocking and humiliating attacks upon the gross stupidity of claiming that somebody should be able to have bombs and ordinance and artillery and nukes. To be frank, ARMS ARE ARMS. Period.



It's not a fantasy. All rights are subject to certain restrictions. Most of the time, fundamental rights are restrict-able only under Strict Constitutional Scrutiny, which I covered above and explained why high explosives were different and society has a necessary interest in some degree of regulation of same.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

It's not a fantasy. All rights are subject to certain restrictions. Most of the time, fundamental rights are restrict-able only under Strict Constitutional Scrutiny, which I covered above and explained why high explosives were different and society has a necessary interest in some degree of regulation of same.

Arms are arms are arms and the Constitution protects the right to have them. Either the government can restrict and pass reasonable laws over arms or they cannot do so.

It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that GUNS must be treated one way by government with one standard and other things like bombs can be treated a completely different way with a different standard.

This whole thing is a ruse.... a sham .... a fraud perpetrated by the right of this issue to come up with a way NOT to be mocked and humiliated if they said the same things about bombs that they say about guns.

here is an example for your explanation

Whether explosives in general are protected by the 2a is subject to debate. Certainly explosive propellants are, as that is what is used to propel bullets in firearms, though modern "gun powder" is not a high explosive like old fashion black powder.

So you conveniently find a way to even pretend that some explosives are protected while other explosives are not. And of course guess which ones you pretend are protected? The ones used in guns of course. Imagine how convenient that distinction is for you.

Its a sham and a fraud and fools nobody since the Amendment itself says none of the stuff you seem to feel in your explanation allows you to make these false distinctions.

This whole fraud is there for one and only one purpose: so the right can claim that the federal government has no power to regulate guns but can claim that its perfectly okay to regulate other types of arms. And that reeks of intellectual dishonesty and mere contrivance since the language of the Second Amendment of the Constitution does NOT separate any of those distinctions that some want to make to justify their support for guns.
 
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Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Arms are arms are arms and the Constitution protects the right to have them. Either the government can restrict and pass reasonable laws over arms or they cannot do so.

Absolutism, attempt to drag this into a different topic on firearms.

It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that GUNS must be treated one way by government with one standard and other things like bombs can be treated a completely different way with a different standard.

Because guns and be stored, explosives tend to explode when not stored properly and cause damage to everything around them. Again attempt to derail the discussion.

This whole thing is a ruse.... a sham .... a fraud perpetrated by the right of this issue to come up with a way NOT to be mocked and humiliated if they said the same things about bombs that they say about guns.

If I need to go fishing, I know where to find bait.

here is an example for your explanation

So you conveniently find a way to even pretend that some explosives are protected while other explosives are not. And of course guess which ones you pretend are protected? The ones used in guns of course. Imagine how convenient that distinction is for you.

White powder is stable, it is contained and cannot explode easily. It is safe for its intended use.

Its a sham and a fraud and fools nobody since the Amendment itself says none of the stuff you seem to feel in your explanation allows you to make these false distinctions.

Your interpretations of the constitution leave a lot to be desired.

This whole fraud is there for one and only one purpose: so the right can claim that the federal government has no power to regulate guns but can claim that its perfectly okay to regulate other types of arms. And that reeks of intellectual dishonesty and mere contrivance since the language of the Second Amendment of the Constitution does NOT separate any of those distinctions that some want to make to justify their support for guns.

Ahh, but it already does, go read US v Miller because it makes the distinction.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Arms are arms are arms and the Constitution protects the right to have them. Either the government can restrict and pass reasonable laws over arms or they cannot do so.

It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that GUNS must be treated one way by government with one standard and other things like bombs can be treated a completely different way with a different standard.


In a state of nature, the individual has the absolute and unlimited right to self-defense using any means necessary. There are no rules one needs to abide by; the individual is free to keep and use anything he can find, make, or obtain.

However, when individuals band together to form pacts of mutual protection they can voluntarily enter into agreements limiting various rights in order to live together. In the case of these United States it takes the form of the Constitution, and the other laws and regulations we allow our elected representatives to enact.

Still the right to keep and bear arms protected under the U.S. Constitution is based on the individual's right of self-defense. Our true founding document, The Declaration of Independence states "...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,... it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

So as Goshen has tried to point out, we must look to the origins of the agreement to determine what types of weapons may be freely allowed an individual, and which can be freely regulated by the established government. The intent of the framers, and the citizens who ratified the agreement when it was created. The term militia is clearly used; so under historical militia rules, arms are those weapons and armor commonly carried by the average combatant in warfare.

Ordinance in the form of bombs, grenades, etc. were not given to everyone, only those specially trained or others on an as-needed basis. That is still the case today in both military and police organizations.

It is disingenuous to claim, as you do, that since ordinance falls under the general dictionary definition of a term, it automatically falls under the definition provided in our social agreement codified by the Constitution. It is the intent of the agreement that binds. That is why GUNs are protected, because guns and their ammunition were what the framers were talking about.
 
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Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

That's right...
The 2nd amendment was designed to protect everything necessary for a citizens militia to be able to form and effectively wage war..

actually its a two part amendment.

1. that the federal government, will not make any laws concerning an organized militia of a state, and 2. the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

Absolutism, attempt to drag this into a different topic on firearms. /QUOTE]
The Constitution does not mention firearms - it says arms. And explosives are arms and ordinance are arms and bombs are arms and lots of other things are arms.

So your fallacious use of a FALSE PREMISE dooms your argument to failure.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

In a state of nature, the individual has the absolute and unlimited right to self-defense using any means necessary.

You are making the fatal mistake of confusing a basic ability of a living organism with a right.And all the self serving verbiage does not change this... nor does it change the exact language of the Second Amendment in the Constitution with states ARMS - not just guns.
 
Re: Should private explosive device ownership be constitutionally protected?

You are making the fatal mistake of confusing a basic ability of a living organism with a right.

The basic ability of an organism?

Never mind, your point is a red herring and has nothing to do with this discussion.
 
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