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The Founders' Activist Government

haymarket said:
If someone uses the term SIX while another uses the term HALF A DOZEN - does that also confuse and befuddle you?
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*Sigh*

lib·er·tar·i·an

/ˌlibərˈterēən/

noun

noun: libertarian; plural noun: libertarians

1.

an adherent of libertarianism.
"libertarian philosophy"

•a person who advocates civil liberty.

2.

Philosophy
a person who believes in the doctrine of free will.

con·serv·a·tive

/kənˈsərvədiv/

adjective

adjective: conservative

1.

holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.

synonyms: traditionalist, traditional, conventional, orthodox, old-fashioned, dyed-in-the-wool, hidebound, unadventurous, set in one's ways; More
moderate, middle-of-the-road, buttoned-down;

informalstick-in-the-mud

"our more conservative neighbors may object to the modern architecture being proposed"

antonyms: radical

•(of dress or taste) sober and conventional.
"a conservative suit"

synonyms: conventional, sober, modest, plain, unobtrusive, restrained, subtle, low-key, demure, unshowy, unflashy; More
informalsquare, straight

"he wore a conservative blue suit"

antonyms: ostentatious

•(of an estimate) purposely low for the sake of caution.
"the film was not cheap—$30,000 is a conservative estimate"

synonyms: low, cautious, understated, moderate, reasonable
"a conservative estimate"

•(of surgery or medical treatment) intended to control rather than eliminate a condition, with existing tissue preserved as far as possible.

•of or relating to the Conservative Party of Great Britain or a similar party in another country.
adjective: Conservative

synonyms: right-wing, reactionary, traditionalist; More
Republican;

Tory;

informalredneck

"the conservative wing of the party"

antonyms: socialist

noun

noun: conservative; plural noun: conservatives

1.

a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in relation to politics.

synonyms: right-winger, reactionary, rightist, diehard; More
 
Abbazorkzog said:
*Sigh*

lib·er·tar·i·an

/ˌlibərˈterēən/

noun

noun: libertarian; plural noun: libertarians

1.

an adherent of libertarianism.
"libertarian philosophy"

•a person who advocates civil liberty.

2.

Philosophy
a person who believes in the doctrine of free will.

con·serv·a·tive

/kənˈsərvədiv/

adjective

adjective: conservative

1.

holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion.

synonyms: traditionalist, traditional, conventional, orthodox, old-fashioned, dyed-in-the-wool, hidebound, unadventurous, set in one's ways; More
moderate, middle-of-the-road, buttoned-down;

informalstick-in-the-mud

"our more conservative neighbors may object to the modern architecture being proposed"

antonyms: radical

•(of dress or taste) sober and conventional.
"a conservative suit"

synonyms: conventional, sober, modest, plain, unobtrusive, restrained, subtle, low-key, demure, unshowy, unflashy; More
informalsquare, straight

"he wore a conservative blue suit"

antonyms: ostentatious

•(of an estimate) purposely low for the sake of caution.
"the film was not cheap—$30,000 is a conservative estimate"

synonyms: low, cautious, understated, moderate, reasonable
"a conservative estimate"

•(of surgery or medical treatment) intended to control rather than eliminate a condition, with existing tissue preserved as far as possible.

•of or relating to the Conservative Party of Great Britain or a similar party in another country.
adjective: Conservative

synonyms: right-wing, reactionary, traditionalist; More
Republican;

Tory;

informalredneck

"the conservative wing of the party"

antonyms: socialist

noun

noun: conservative; plural noun: conservatives

1.

a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in relation to politics.

synonyms: right-winger, reactionary, rightist, diehard; More
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so what? How are right libertarians and conservatives any different in the most important issue defining American politics - the role of government and the use of the powers it has?
 
haymarket said:
so what? How are right libertarians and conservatives any different in the most important issue defining American politics - the role of government and the use of the powers it has?
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because i am am libertarian [R] and the federal government, has no power to in the area of people growing /smoking pot, and if a state engages in the marriage of people, then it cannot discriminate against gays getting married.

the federal government has its role to play concerning the union of states, however its role is limited, and to be used externally on the union, while state powers are internal dealing with the lives liberty and property of the people.
 
ernst barkmann said:
because i am am libertarian [R] and the federal government, has no power to in the area of people growing /smoking pot, and if a state engages in the marriage of people, then it cannot discriminate against gays getting married.

the federal government has its role to play concerning the union of states, however its role is limited, and to be used externally on the union, while state powers are internal dealing with the lives liberty and property of the people.
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Again, on the issue of the role of government and the use of its powers, how are right libertarians and conservatives any different in their view? i AM NOT talking about a few cherry picked issues like getting high or getting laid - I am talking about the role of government in the general welfare of the American people.
 
haymarket said:
Again, on the issue of the role of government and the use of its powers, how are right libertarians and conservatives any different in their view? i AM NOT talking about a few cherry picked issues like getting high or getting laid - I am talking about the role of government in the general welfare of the American people.
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See post #51.
 
Joe Steel said:
The establishment of the Bank of the United States is proof the Founders wanted an activist government.
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And some founders like Jefferson absolutely killed the national bank.
 
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haymarket said:
Do you live in a dictionary where everything conforms to the words on that page?
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I assume you live in a world where everything conforms to the text you spew on political debate forums.
 
haymarket said:
Since neither the Founders nor the world they lived in are around any longer and have to been so for two centuries now, why does their opinion matter more than the opinion of Americans alive today who live in a world they never experienced nor knew nothing about?
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That is an excellent question. The Constitution is the refuge of those who know that most Americans disagree with them. Conservatives know that the electorate is moving to the left, so they pretend that the so called "Founding Fathers" designed the Constitution to be a bulwark against popular opinion.When they say "The United States is a republic, not a democracy," they claim that majority opinion lacks moral and legal significance.
 
SmartCat said:
That is an excellent question. The Constitution is the refuge of those who know that most Americans disagree with them. Conservatives know that the electorate is moving to the left, so they pretend that the so called "Founding Fathers" designed the Constitution to be a bulwark against popular opinion.When they say "The United States is a republic, not a democracy," they claim that majority opinion lacks moral and legal significance.
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A majority of people are, and were, against many actions that this, and past presidents have forced upon them through Executive Action.

So how does your theory apply again?
 
SmartCat said:
That is an excellent question. The Constitution is the refuge of those who know that most Americans disagree with them. Conservatives know that the electorate is moving to the left, so they pretend that the so called "Founding Fathers" designed the Constitution to be a bulwark against popular opinion.When they say "The United States is a republic, not a democracy," they claim that majority opinion lacks moral and legal significance.
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Great observation .... and we see evidence of it everyday right here. And of course, those sainted Founders who they constantly invoke (or at least their cherry picked favorite ones) are NOT here to speak for themselves about their views applied to the year 2016 in a very very very different America than the one they dealt with.
 
haymarket said:
Again, on the issue of the role of government and the use of its powers, how are right libertarians and conservatives any different in their view? i AM NOT talking about a few cherry picked issues like getting high or getting laid - I am talking about the role of government in the general welfare of the American people.
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well getting high or getting laid are two items that set us apart from conservatives.

libertarians like myself do not like for the federal government to use its military powers, when the u.s. is Not threaten, they should not be going around the world trying to police it, or toppling governments in foreign lands just because they don't like them..IE Iran 1953.

as for the general welfare these are the powers of the federal government, welfare in the sense of the government giving people material goods and services is not welfare as described in the constitution.

i myself am against the federal government being involved in the distribution of wealth because it not a federal power, however i do know of some conservatives who don't have a problem with it as long as those receiving it, do for only a limited time and not for life.

R libertarians like myself believe in the separation of powers, ..IE federalism, and that the federal government has powers per the constitution they are to be used externally on the union itself, while internal powers belong to the state governments, and that any one power that 1 of the governments is exercising, the other cannot.
 
RetiredUSN said:
A majority of people are, and were, against many actions that this, and past presidents have forced upon them through Executive Action.

So how does your theory apply again?
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For years public opinion polls have indicated majority support for higher taxes on the rich and no cuts to middle class entitlements. The electorate is moving to the left on social issues. Socialism is gaining support as an ideal. Republicans can no longer feel, as they did during the 1980's, that history is moving in their direction.

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Poll: Against Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump Would Get 'Schlonged'

A new national poll finds Sanders would beat Trump if they went head-to-head in the general election

By Tim Dickinson December 23, 2015


Bernie Sanders would beat Donald Trump 51-38 in a general-election match-up, according to the latest poll from Quinnipiac University...

"Sen. Bernie Sanders hammers him," said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac poll. Hillary Clinton, the poll suggests, would also put Trump in his place — "Hillary Clinton tops him," added Malloy — though by a more modest 47-40.
Poll: Against Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump Would Get 'Schlonged' | Rolling Stone
 
ernst barkmann said:
well getting high or getting laid are two items that set us apart from conservatives.
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A libertarian is a Republican who does not like going to church, and who likes illegal drugs and pornography.
 
SmartCat said:
That is an excellent question. The Constitution is the refuge of those who know that most Americans disagree with them. Conservatives know that the electorate is moving to the left, so they pretend that the so called "Founding Fathers" designed the Constitution to be a bulwark against popular opinion.When they say "The United States is a republic, not a democracy," they claim that majority opinion lacks moral and legal significance.
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the founders designed the senate as the first bulwark against unconstitutional acts, which is why the senate was appointed by the states, and USSC being the second bulwark.

the u.s. was created by men who read the classics, and created the classical republic a "mixed government", power is divided and the people are not given all direct power to elect or make law.

Federalist 40

On the Powers of the Convention to Form a Mixed Government Examined and Sustained

New York Packet
Friday, January 18, 1788
[James Madison]

To the People of the State of New York:

THE second point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional] convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.
 
ernst barkmann said:
well getting high or getting laid are two items that set us apart from conservatives.
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While I am aware that for some people this is the be all and end all of life - they are two things which I have never ever cared about as far as being political issues - so they - and in turn libertarians or conservatives positions - are completely irrelevant to me and mean nothing next to the really important issues like the role and scope of government.

libertarians like myself do not like for the federal government to use its military powers, when the u.s. is Not threaten, they should not be going around the world trying to police it, or toppling governments in foreign lands just because they don't like them..IE Iran 1953.
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I DO NOT think that is a libertarian position in and of itself. I am mostly a progressive and would echo that statement and support it. And I know lots of Democrats who are progressives who would subscribe to that. Old traditional conservatives like Robert Taft would also feel comfortable with that position.



as for the general welfare these are the powers of the federal government, welfare in the sense of the government giving people material goods and services is not welfare as described in the constitution.
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And just how is it described in the Constitution?

i myself am against the federal government being involved in the distribution of wealth because it not a federal power, however i do know of some conservatives who don't have a problem with it as long as those receiving it, do for only a limited time and not for life.
Click to expand...

Conservatives are generally against welfare programs although many of those in power vote for the programs just the same while railing against them.

R libertarians like myself believe in the separation of powers, ..IE federalism, and that the federal government has powers per the constitution they are to be used externally on the union itself, while internal powers belong to the state governments, and that any one power that 1 of the governments is exercising, the other cannot.
Click to expand...

I know of no American of any ideological stripe who is against a separation of powers. And I have never talked to anyone who does not understand and accept that states also have certain powers.
 
haymarket said:
And just how is it described in the Constitution?


first are no powers in the constitution concerning the personal lives of the people, none



Conservatives are generally against welfare programs although many of those in power vote for the programs just the same while railing against them.



I know of no American of any ideological stripe who is against a separation of powers. And I have never talked to anyone who does not understand and accept that states also have certain powers.
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are no powers of congress in the constitution concerning the personal lives of the people, none!. the general welfare are the powers of congress, which are not part of defense.

yes there are conservatives who vote for social programs via the federal government and then rail against them, no question about it, which sets me apart from a conservative.

iam not against state social programs, but only federal.

QUESTION?...if the state governments are regulating commerce inside of their own states, how can the federal government do it also, since that would be both governments engaging in the same power?
 
ernst barkmann said:
are no powers of congress in the constitution concerning the personal lives of the people, none!.
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That does not make sense.

QUESTION?...if the state governments are regulating commerce inside of their own states, how can the federal government do it also, since that would be both governments engaging in the same power?​
Click to expand...
ANSWER: So what?


​
 
ernst barkmann said:
the founders designed the senate as the first bulwark against unconstitutional acts, which is why the senate was appointed by the states, and USSC being the second bulwark.

the u.s. was created by men who read the classics, and created the classical republic a "mixed government", power is divided and the people are not given all direct power to elect or make law.

Federalist 40
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This is what I get Federalist 40, "An act from Annapolis recommends the 'appointment of commissioners to take into consideration the situation of the United States; to devise such further provisions as shall appear to them necessary to render the Constitution of the federal government adequate to the exigencies of the union...

"Let [opponents of the new Constitution] declare whether it was of most importance to the happiness of the people of America that the adequate government be providedk and the Union preserved, or that an adequate government should be omitted, and the Articles of Confederation be preserved."

The goal of the Constitutional convention was not to restrict the power of the federal government, but to increase it. Those who wrote and signed the Constitution thought that the only necessary restriction on the power of the government was that it be subservient to the popular will.

A divided government is consistent with democracy, but I do not think it is necessary.
 
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