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SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Beliefs?

Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

ernst barkmann said:
you just said federal districts........that's federal property.

congress has total authority on federal property.....so if your a citizen on federal property they have authority over you.....

MOST PEOPLE 99.9% excluding members of government.....are not on federal property, therefore the federal government has no authority to make laws directly aimed at them.
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Yes, that is how our federal Congress can affect the People, directly.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

danielpalos said:
Yes, that is how our federal Congress can affect the People, directly.
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only when you are on federal property.......as i stated this before.......but you cant seem to understand this!

when not on federal property, which most Americans are not, the federal government has no authority over you per the constitution.

if i live on land in west texas and never enter onto federal property, the federal government has no authority to pass a law directed at me, or my land.
 
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Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

ernst barkmann said:
only when you are on federal property.......as i stated this before.......but you cant seem to understand this!

when not on federal property, which most Americans are not, the federal government has no authority over you per the constitution.

if i live on land in west texas and never enter onto federal property, the federal government has no authority to pass a law directed at me, or my land.
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In its national capacity, our federal Constitution affects the People, directly.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

It can be spelled with an 'e' or an 'a', with slightly different meanings, the word effect. :peace
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

Henry David said:
It can be spelled with an 'e' or an 'a', with slightly different meanings, the word effect. :peace
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so i can make my meaning clear.

congress can declare war, and that effects the people, however congress has no authority to create a federal law, and place it [directly] on to the backs of people to make them do something,.... or stop them from doing something, accept the areas which are mentioned in the constitution.

the areas are..PIRACY, COUNTERFEITING, TAX EVASION, AND TREASON

the powers of the government are national powers........they don't deal with the people personal life's.

federalist 45-The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
 
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Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

If a corporation is privately held, then it most certainly can have religious beliefs.

If a corporation issues openly-traded public stock, free for anyone to buy, then no.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

radcen said:
If a corporation is privately held, then it most certainly can have religious beliefs.

If a corporation issues openly-traded public stock, free for anyone to buy, then no.
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If a car or truck is privately held, does it have religious beliefs?
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

Henry David said:
If a car or truck is privately held, does it have religious beliefs?
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Yes on your planet where an apple is an orange. Companies enact policies directed by individuals who own them. You sit in a car and point it at the grocery store. Just thought I'd explain the difference to you.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

sawdust said:
Yes on your planet where an apple is an orange. Companies enact policies directed by individuals who own them. You sit in a car and point it at the grocery store. Just thought I'd explain the difference to you.
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The point is about being able to "impose" your morals simply due to your wealth.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

sawdust said:
Henry David said:
If a car or truck is privately held, does it have religious beliefs?
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Yes on your planet where an apple is an orange. Companies enact policies directed by individuals who own them. You sit in a car and point it at the grocery store. Just thought I'd explain the difference to you.
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This, of course, is the correct answer to that question.

Sorry, HD, while you're normally very reasoned and rational, you failed on this one. The comparison wasn't apt. As noted, a business is an animate thing to some degree in that the people that run it make and enforce policies that affect other people. The business becomes something of a guiding presence in employee's lives, if you will, and it can be so without direct involvement of the leaders at all moments. A vehicle is an inanimate thing that does none of that.



danielpalos said:
The point is about being able to "impose" your morals simply due to your wealth.
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*chuckle* You assume that all business owners are wealthy?

I could make the blindingly obvious notation that this is due to most liberals being idealistically clueless regarding the real business world, but I will refrain from doing that.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

danielpalos said:
The point is about being able to "impose" your morals simply due to your wealth.
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Employment in voluntary. Hobby Lobby isn't trying to impose it's morals on anyone. They just don't want to participate in a government program that forces them to violate their moral beliefs. It's the Federal government that is trying to impose it's values on Hobby Lobby. If their employees dislike the insurance plan the company offers, they are fee to seek employment that they prefer but by all accounts Hobby Lobby treats employees well, pays them fairly and offers a very good benefits package. That's the way a free country used to work.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

sawdust said:
Employment in voluntary. Hobby Lobby isn't trying to impose it's morals on anyone. They just don't want to participate in a government program that forces them to violate their moral beliefs. It's the Federal government that is trying to impose it's values on Hobby Lobby. If their employees dislike the insurance plan the company offers, they are fee to seek employment that they prefer but by all accounts Hobby Lobby treats employees well, pays them fairly and offers a very good benefits package. That's the way a free country used to work.
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Can people just quit on an at-will basis and collect unemployment compensation? If the answer is no, then it isn't entirely voluntary and could be said to be a mitigating circumstance that prevents labor from merely quitting and collecting unemployment compensation rather than work for such an employer.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

danielpalos said:
Can people just quit on an at-will basis and collect unemployment compensation? If the answer is no, then it isn't entirely voluntary and could be said to be a mitigating circumstance that prevents labor from merely quitting and collecting unemployment compensation rather than work for such an employer.
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Do you make this stuff up as you go along? Seriously. It is 100% voluntary. It just isn't free from potential consequences, but personal independent decisions rarely are. You always have that choice (to quit), only most people weigh the pros and cons and make decisions according to what is more important to them. That's life, plain and simple. Where do we get this absurd notion that anything even potentially negative is always somehow someone else's fault?
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

radcen said:
Do you make this stuff up as you go along? Seriously. It is 100% voluntary. It just isn't free from potential consequences, but personal independent decisions rarely are. You always have that choice (to quit), only most people weigh the pros and cons and make decisions according to what is more important to them. That's life, plain and simple. Where do we get this absurd notion that anything even potentially negative is always somehow someone else's fault?
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Do you always resort to non sequiturs as a form of diversion instead of providing a valid rebuttal.

Can people just quit on an at-will basis and collect unemployment compensation? If the answer is no, then it isn't entirely voluntary and could be said to be a mitigating circumstance that prevents labor from merely quitting and collecting unemployment compensation rather than work for such an employer.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

sawdust said:
Yes on your planet where an apple is an orange. Companies enact policies directed by individuals who own them. You sit in a car and point it at the grocery store. Just thought I'd explain the difference to you.
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You must have me confused with somebody else. On my planet an apple is an apple, a human is a human, and an airplane is an airplane. On my planet there is life, a biological phenomenon, and machines and devices which are conceived of and created by men.

That's the difference.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

danielpalos said:
Do you always resort to non sequiturs as a form of diversion instead of providing a valid rebuttal.

Can people just quit on an at-will basis and collect unemployment compensation? If the answer is no, then it isn't entirely voluntary and could be said to be a mitigating circumstance that prevents labor from merely quitting and collecting unemployment compensation rather than work for such an employer.
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I very clearly and concisely pointed out how your point was in error. Smug dismissal and restatement of your original point does not make my point any less valid, nor does it make your point any more so. You can either address the point, or you cannot. Clearly, as demonstrated, you cannot.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

Henry David said:
You must have me confused with somebody else. On my planet an apple is an apple, a human is a human, and an airplane is an airplane. On my planet there is life, a biological phenomenon, and machines and devices which are conceived of and created by men.

That's the difference.
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And a company is somewhere in between, in terms of the effects it has on people. An inanimate object such as a man-made vehicle has absolutely no impact on your life in the sense of influencing your decisions, save maybe whether or not to run like hell if it is barreling toward you.

A business, on the other hand, even though also man-made, does influence your life if you work for it. Is insurance provided? If not, where do you shop and how do you determine your needs? What's the sick day policy? If you've used it up for the year, do you go in today even though you're sick, or do you call in and take the smaller paycheck for the lost day? That type of thing affects you, and affects what decisions you make on a day-to-day basis.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

radcen said:
I very clearly and concisely pointed out how your point was in error. Smug dismissal and restatement of your original point does not make my point any less valid, nor does it make your point any more so. You can either address the point, or you cannot. Clearly, as demonstrated, you cannot.
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Where is the error in this?

Can people just quit on an at-will basis and collect unemployment compensation? If the answer is no, then it isn't entirely voluntary and could be said to be a mitigating circumstance that prevents labor from merely quitting and collecting unemployment compensation rather than work for such an employer.

At will employment is generally described as follows: "any hiring is presumed to be 'at will'; that is, the employer is free to discharge individuals 'for good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all,' and the employee is equally free to quit, strike, or otherwise cease work."
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Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

danielpalos said:
Where is the error in this?

Can people just quit on an at-will basis and collect unemployment compensation? If the answer is no, then it isn't entirely voluntary and could be said to be a mitigating circumstance that prevents labor from merely quitting and collecting unemployment compensation rather than work for such an employer.
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:roll: See post #388. I feel no need or obligation to repeat myself.

If you feel that your point is still valid, yet are still unable to come up with a coherent response beyond mindless repetition, please refrain from replying directly. I hate when threads degenerate into two people just repeating the same thing over and over.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

radcen said:
:roll: See post #388. I feel no need or obligation to repeat myself.

If you feel that your point is still valid, yet are still unable to come up with a coherent response beyond mindless repetition, please refrain from replying directly. I hate when threads degenerate into two people just repeating the same thing over and over.
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Not at all; you merely don't have a problem indulging the moral turpitude of bearing false witness to our own Doctrine in law, and State laws regarding employment at will.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

radcen said:
And a company is somewhere in between, in terms of the effects it has on people. An inanimate object such as a man-made vehicle has absolutely no impact on your life in the sense of influencing your decisions, save maybe whether or not to run like hell if it is barreling toward you.

A business, on the other hand, even though also man-made, does influence your life if you work for it. Is insurance provided? If not, where do you shop and how do you determine your needs? What's the sick day policy? If you've used it up for the year, do you go in today even though you're sick, or do you call in and take the smaller paycheck for the lost day? That type of thing affects you, and affects what decisions you make on a day-to-day basis.
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I think I understand what you're trying to say.

A business can be incorporated, or not, a sole-proprietorship as I recall.

Both are legal fictions, or at least labels for accounting purposes. But neither are animate, though the sole proprietorship comes close.

Being inanimate, how can it have religious views? Can my motorcycle have religious views?
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

Henry David said:
I think I understand what you're trying to say.

A business can be incorporated, or not, a sole-proprietorship as I recall.

Both are legal fictions, or at least labels for accounting purposes. But neither are animate, though the sole proprietorship comes close.

Being inanimate, how can it have religious views? Can my motorcycle have religious views?
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Even with businesses I think "it depends". I'll expand on what I said earlier in the thread.

A business that is owned by one person or a family, can have religious values because the business is the person/family. I don't think it matters if it is an S-Corp, LLC, or sole proprietorship, as those are just tax/legal distinctions. The business is run by an individual or small closed group with definable beliefs and personalities as a guiding force.

A business that is publicly traded, on the other hand, is subject to a wide myriad of personalities, beliefs, and influences, and decisions are usually made as compromises. There is less of a moral guiding force as a result, other than maybe staying within the law. For this reason, I do not believe that this type of business can have religious values.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

radcen said:
Even with businesses I think "it depends". I'll expand on what I said earlier in the thread.

A business that is owned by one person or a family, can have religious values because the business is the person/family. I don't think it matters if it is an S-Corp, LLC, or sole proprietorship, as those are just tax/legal distinctions. The business is run by an individual or small closed group with definable beliefs and personalities as a guiding force.

A business that is publicly traded, on the other hand, is subject to a wide myriad of personalities, beliefs, and influences, and decisions are usually made as compromises. There is less of a moral guiding force as a result, other than maybe staying within the law. For this reason, I do not believe that this type of business can have religious values.
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Yes, I do understand what you're saying, but I do not find it to be persuasive regarding this Hobby Lobby situation.

It seems to me that if the owners of Hobby Lobby were so very motivated by the principles they claim to be motivated by in bringing this action (I am against Obamacare and have been since before it was law), then they would have divested themselves of the stock in those companies who manufacture and produce goods and services to which they supposedly object.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

Henry David said:
Yes, I do understand what you're saying, but I do not find it to be persuasive regarding this Hobby Lobby situation.

It seems to me that if the owners of Hobby Lobby were so very motivated by the principles they claim to be motivated by in bringing this action (I am against Obamacare and have been since before it was law), then they would have divested themselves of the stock in those companies who manufacture and produce goods and services to which they supposedly object.
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I don't disagree with that qualification.

I didn't read the part about their investments (I just saw the headlines), and part of me wondered if maybe those companies were buried in some kind of fund-type thing, but even if that were true I think they should have known if there are certain things that are that important to them.

My point, though, is generic and would apply to pretty much any business. Doesn't necessarily have to be Hobby Lobby.
 
Re: SB1062, Hobby Lobs...Religious Exemptions Q: Do Corporations have Religious Belie

It can't be about morals if there is no Faith in executing our own laws which could ameliorate this social dilemma.
 
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