• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Not A Represenative democracy, but Mixed government

Status
Not open for further replies.

Master PO

Mixed Government advocate
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
32,516
Reaction score
5,321
Location
93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Mixed government, also known as a mixed constitution, is a form of government that integrates elements of democracy, aristocracy, and monarchy. In a mixed government, some issues (often defined in a constitution) are decided by the majority of the people, some other issues by few, and some other issues by a single person (also often defined in a constitution). The idea is commonly treated as an antecedent of separation of powers.

James Madison, Federalist, no. 40--The second point to be examined is, whether the Convention were authorized to frame and propose this MIXED Constitution.

18 Jan. 1788

In order to discuss the concept of the mixed constitution in antiquity,5 it is important first to understand what is meant by a simple constitution. In Book VI of his Histories (6.4.6-11; cf. 6.3.5), the ancient Greek historian Polybius outlines three simple forms of constitution--each categorized according to the number of its ruling body: monarchy (rule by the one), aristocracy (rule by the few), and democracy (rule by the many).6 According to the historian, these three simple constitutions each degenerate, over time, into their respective corrupt forms (tyranny, oligarchy, and mob-rule) by a cycle of gradual decline which he calls anacyclosis or “political revolution” (6.9.10: politeiw=n a)naku/klwsij; 6.4.7-11; cf. 6.3.9). 7

For monarchy, he claims, inevitably degrades into tyranny. Tyranny is then replaced by aristocracy, which in turn degrades into oligarchy. Oligarchy then is overthrown by democracy, which ultimately falls into its own corresponding distortion, mob-rule (or ochlocracy). In Polybius’ analysis, the cycle then starts up again (monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy) since anarchy inevitably creates a void that some new demagogue will fill.8 'Anaku/klwsij, the sliding from one form of constitution into another, is unavoidable because of the inherent weakness of each simple form of constitution.9

The catalyst for the decay in each simple form, Polybius says (6.7.7), is hereditary succession--the automatic handing down of the privileges of a particular form of government to future generations without their ever having to internalize for themselves the discipline necessary to maintain those privileges.

Each of the three simple forms of constitution serves well enough at its inception, since founder kings arise out of their very excellence of character, aristocracies (by definition at least) form from the noblest of society, and democracies too embrace the highest ideals at the outset. The problem lies not with the initial impetus that forms these governments but with the fact that they each suffer entropy, or internal decay.

Polybius explains his theory in fuller detail, describing the mechanism by which hereditary succession weakens the state. When the crown is inherited generation upon generation, kings are no longer then chosen by excellence of leadership but by accident of birth. When monarchs are born to privilege, they no longer have any incentive to serve the state (since their privileges are no longer tied to their performance as leaders). They eventually expend their daily energies in merely fulfilling the desires of their own appetites. Having become arrogant and self-serving, the last in the line of tyrants is pushed aside by those who are close enough to the throne to notice his corruption, namely the members of the aristocracy (Polyb. 6.8.1).

They, in turn, serve the state well initially. After all, these were the nobles so offended by the king’s excesses that principle drove them to take action against him. Unfortunately, here again, when the grandchildren of these nobles inherit position, they are ill equipped to handle the power of rule (since they were born to privilege and identify less and less with the problems of the common man). The aristocracy then degrades proportionally by each generation into an oligarchy, just as the kings degenerated into tyrants (6.8.5). The oligarchs then are banished or killed by the people, who finally assume the responsibility of ruling themselves.

The people also govern well, at first. As long as there are any living who remember the days of oppression, they guard their liberties with a jealous vigor. Nevertheless, as future generations inherit the same privileges of democracy as their ancestors, yet without effort, they cease to cherish those benefits (6.9.5). Eventually individuals arise among them who, seeking pre-eminence, cater to the creature comforts of the masses, thereby hoping to win their favor. People sell cheap those liberties that have cost them nothing personally. Once the masses accept these demagogues, the cycle of tyranny begins again. This is the cycle Polybius calls a)naku/klwsij.

Polybius believes that Republican Rome has avoided this endless cycle by establishing a mixed constitution, a single state with elements of all three forms of government at once: monarchy (in the form of its elected executives, the consuls), aristocracy (as represented by the Senate), and democracy (in the form of the popular assemblies, such as the Comitia Centuriata).10 In a mixed constitution, each of the three branches of government checks the strengths and balances the weaknesses of the other two. Since absolute rule rests in no single body but rather is shared among the three, the corrupting influence of unchecked power is abated and stasis is achieved.11

Polybius is not alone in his praise of mixed government. Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero all stress the supremacy of a mixed constitution

The fact that Polybius’ theories and the American system share similarities will not suffice to prove, more than circumstantially, that the U.S. Constitution is founded upon ancient theories. The second focus of this paper, therefore, will be to establish whether the Founding Fathers actually knew and read Polybius.

Steeped as they were in the classics, “the Founding Fathers,” Saul K. Padover asserts, “were educationally and spiritually the children of the antiquity.”23 Bernard Bailyn too proclaims, “knowledge of classical authors was universal among colonists with any degree of education.”24 Gummere adds, “there was seldom an epoch when the leading men were so imbued with the classical tradition.”25 In recognition of this fact, Richard (130) concludes,

The founders had access to every level of this western tradition of mixed government theory. Hence it was only natural that, when confronted by unprecedented parliamentary taxation during the 1760s and 1770s, they should turn to the most ancient and revered of political theories to explain this perplexing phenomenon. Patriot leaders such as Richard Henry Lee, Samuel Adams, and John Adams ascribed the new tyranny to a degeneration of the mixture of the English constitution.

Clearly the Founding Fathers were familiar with the classics generally, but did they know about Polybius specifically?26 That the text of Polybius’ Histories itself was available to the Founders is of no doubt, as M. N. S. Sellers attests,27

Americans understood the Roman constitution primarily through the writings of Polybius, readily available in four recent printings, and after [January of] 1787 in excerpts from Spelman’s translation, reproduced in John Adam’s Defense of the Constitutions of the United States of America.

Thomas Jefferson, a fervent supporter of mixed government,28 had numerous editions of Polybius’ Histories in his personal library.29

James Madison also knew Polybius’ work. He cites the historian in The Federalist Papers No. 63 and devotes nearly the entirety of No. 47 to the separation of powers:33

The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands whether of one, a few or many, and whether hereditary, self appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.



Adams (Works, 4.328) fully embraces the classical division of simple constitutions into monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy.45 In the introduction to chapter six of his A Defense of the Constitutions, Adams (Works, 4.435) clearly links Polybius with his purpose:46

It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.
 
Classical republicanism is a body of political thought which was developed in Western Europe and Britain during the Renaissance. During this time period Europe was largely dominated by dynastic monarchies and classical republicanism was a reaction to this form of rule. More specifically, it is a form of republicanism which stresses the restraint of power through the use of mixed government and aims at active participation in government and public life by all levels of society.[1] Classical republicanism grew from the ideas of Niccolo Maciavelli (1469-1527) who in turn followed the ideas of such classical writers as Aristotle, Cicero, and Polybius.[1]

Republicanism is a political ideology in opposition to monarchy and tyranny. Republicans (a republic) hold that a political system must be founded upon the rule of law, the rights of individuals, and the sovereignty of the people. It is also closely connected to the idea of civic virtue, the responsibility citizens owe to their republic, and to opposition to corruption, or the use of public power to benefit the politician.

The Founding Fathers sought "Honor" -- freedom from corruption, and a positive devotion to civic virtue. These were key elements of Republicanism, and the Founding Fathers made republicanism the core values of the American system of government.

Corruption was the great evil the Founding Fathers confronted. When Britain showed too much corruption, it was time to break free with the American Revolution. To overcome the temptations of corruption--such as luxury and bribery--in their own lives, the Founding Fathers cultivated the virtue of disinterestedness. That is, the made a conscious effort to not be the creature of his financial interests, and not give any sign to the public that they sought luxury or bribes. The goal was to be impartial, concerned only for the public good, not the advancement of friends or, still less, of party.

Even personal shame and humiliation was preferable to a tarnished honor or the hint of corruption. When Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton was accused of corruption for making secret payments to a man named James Reynolds, Hamilton revealed he had been set up and was paying blackmail to Reynolds following an affair with Mrs. Reynolds. Duels over honor were common in the era--Hamilton was killed in one, as was Hamilton's son.
 
Natural and legal rights are two types of rights theoretically distinct according to philosophers and political scientists. Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and unalienable. In contrast, legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system.

The theory of natural law is closely related to the theory of natural rights. During the Age of Enlightenment, natural law theory challenged the divine right of kings, and became an alternative justification for the establishment of a social contract, positive law, and government — and thus legal rights — in the form of classical republicanism. Conversely, the concept of natural rights is used by some anarchists to challenge the legitimacy of all such establishments

Classical republicanism
is a body of political thought which was developed in Western Europe and Britain during the Renaissance. During this time period Europe was largely dominated by dynastic monarchies and classical republicanism was a reaction to this form of rule. More specifically, it is a form of republicanism which stresses the restraint of power through the use of mixed government [/I][/B]and aims at active participation in government and public life by all levels of society. Classical republicanism grew from the ideas of Niccolo Maciavelli (1469-1527) who in turn followed the ideas of such classical writers as Aristotle, Cicero, and Polybius.

Mixed government, also known as a mixed constitution, is a form of government that integrates elements of democracy, aristocracy, and monarchy. In a mixed government, some issues (often defined in a constitution) are decided by the majority of the people, some other issues by few, and some other issues by a single person (also often defined in a constitution). The idea is commonly treated as an antecedent of separation of powers.

James Madison federalist 40---"THE second point to be examined is, whether the convention were authorized to frame and propose this ......mixed Constitution"
 
Natural and legal rights are two types of rights theoretically distinct according to philosophers and political scientists. Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and unalienable. In contrast, legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system.

The theory of natural law is closely related to the theory of natural rights. During the Age of Enlightenment, natural law theory challenged the divine right of kings, and became an alternative justification for the establishment of a social contract, positive law, and government — and thus legal rights — in the form of classical republicanism. Conversely, the concept of natural rights is used by some anarchists to challenge the legitimacy of all such establishments

Classical republicanism
is a body of political thought which was developed in Western Europe and Britain during the Renaissance. During this time period Europe was largely dominated by dynastic monarchies and classical republicanism was a reaction to this form of rule. More specifically, it is a form of republicanism which stresses the restraint of power through the use of mixed government [/I][/B]and aims at active participation in government and public life by all levels of society. Classical republicanism grew from the ideas of Niccolo Maciavelli (1469-1527) who in turn followed the ideas of such classical writers as Aristotle, Cicero, and Polybius.

Mixed government, also known as a mixed constitution, is a form of government that integrates elements of democracy, aristocracy, and monarchy. In a mixed government, some issues (often defined in a constitution) are decided by the majority of the people, some other issues by few, and some other issues by a single person (also often defined in a constitution). The idea is commonly treated as an antecedent of separation of powers.

James Madison federalist 40---"THE second point to be examined is, whether the convention were authorized to frame and propose this ......mixed Constitution"

Thank you for your efforts but I'll stick with what is written in the 1787 Constitution, there is no theory written there.
 
Thank you for your efforts but I'll stick with what is written in the 1787 Constitution, there is no theory written there.


this is no theory, we where not created as a representative democracy, the people were not given the popular vote except in the house, ..which is the only shed of democracy in our government.

our government is republican and it is a mixed constitution , as stated by Madison and john Adams.

if you dont believe in natural rights, were do you rights come from then?...they dont come from the constitution.
 
this is no theory, we where not created as a representative democracy, the people were not given the popular vote except in the house, ..which is the only shed of democracy in our government.

our government is republican and it is a mixed constitution , as stated by Madison and john Adams.

if you dont believe in natural rights, were do you rights come from then?...they dont come from the constitution.

We are supposed to be operating as a republic within Constitutional limitations, but somewhere along the line that thought process has been ignored by many...
 
We are supposed to be operating as a republic within Constitutional limitations, but somewhere along the line that thought process has been ignored by many...

yes because our mixed constitution, which is based on natural rights of the people, has been changed by the 17th amendment to our constitution and moved us closer to democracy.

which democracy is collectivism, it does not recognizes the natural rights of the individual , but recognizes the group, or factions.
 
this is no theory, we where not created as a representative democracy, the people were not given the popular vote except in the house, ..which is the only shed of democracy in our government.

our government is republican and it is a mixed constitution , as stated by Madison and john Adams.

if you dont believe in natural rights, were do you rights come from then?...they dont come from the constitution.

I do not read the Constitution as being mixed and the Founders did not get all their ideas written in the Constitution.

Every living thing has natural rights and I can vouch for every living thing having only two mutual natural rights. Americans have two Rights that all other people do not have, 1) the Right and power to choose Lawmakers, and 2) the Right and Power to serve on a citizen jury. Neither of those two Rights are natural.

Right number 1 came from the 1787 Constitution and is written at, Article I, Section 2, clause 1. Right number 2 came from the 1215 Magna Carta and is written in the 1787 Constitution at Article III, Section 2, clause 3.
 
I do not read the Constitution as being mixed and the Founders did not get all their ideas written in the Constitution.



if you look at Adams works #6 you will see his says its mixed government, he has written letters that say it is mixed government, Madison stated in federalist 40 its mixed government, ....what more proof is there?

mixed government is republican government, of a separation of representation, the house is for the people, the senate the states, and the presidency is delegates from the states....IE electoral college...........we were not created with popular government..democracy .




Every living thing has natural rights and I can vouch for every living thing having only two mutual natural rights. Americans have two Rights that all other people do not have, 1) the Right and power to choose Lawmakers, and 2) the Right and Power to serve on a citizen jury. Neither of those two Rights are natural.

Right number 1 came from the 1787 Constitution and is written at, Article I, Section 2, clause 1. Right number 2 came from the 1215 Magna Carta and is written in the 1787 Constitution at Article III, Section 2, clause 3.

natural rights are what is natural to the body.

right to speech,
worship,
assembly with others.
protect yourself
protect yourself from accusers.
be secure in your person, and property.

it is not natural right to vote, and the founders never put it forth as a right ,it a privledge, as stated by the founders.
 
if you look at Adams works #6 you will see his says its mixed government, he has written letters that say it is mixed government, Madison stated in federalist 40 its mixed government, ....what more proof is there?

mixed government is republican government, of a separation of representation, the house is for the people, the senate the states, and the presidency is delegates from the states....IE electoral college...........we were not created with popular government..democracy .

natural rights are what is natural to the body.

right to speech,
worship,
assembly with others.
protect yourself
protect yourself from accusers.
be secure in your person, and property.

it is not natural right to vote, and the founders never put it forth as a right ,it a privledge, as stated by the founders.

"not natural right to vote, and the founders never put it forth as a right ,it a privledge, as stated by the founders."

The Founders never put "choosing" Representatives as a vote or a Right and choosing Representatives can't be a privilege granted by government because it is written in the Constitution before the federal government was created and the federal cannot amend the Constitution; Article V. Citizens certainly have the exclusive power to choose Representatives, whether a Right or not. I choose to call choosing Representatives a Right because citizens have Rights generally don't have power in the political arena.

Definition of NATURAL
1: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>
2a : being in accordance with or determined by nature
b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature

Doesn't natural rights apply to all living things? I know of only two natural rights possessed by all living things, self defense and propagation.
 
The calendar on my wall indicates it is 2013. The history book on the shelf next to it tells of a USA which has changed dramatically over the last 225 years.

Learning to live with both would go a long way towards acceptance of reality.
 
The calendar on my wall indicates it is 2013. The history book on the shelf next to it tells of a USA which has changed dramatically over the last 225 years.

Learning to live with both would go a long way towards acceptance of reality.

U.S. society is, the people are, free to go a long way but government is not free to do anything outside the powers delegated to it by the Constitution, Amendment X.
 
U.S. society is, the people are, free to go a long way but government is not free to do anything outside the powers delegated to it by the Constitution, Amendment X.

And we have had a United States Supreme Court to keep an eye on that for the past two centuries.
 
And we have had a United States Supreme Court to keep an eye on that for the past two centuries.

The SC does not decide the constitutionality of the Constitution, it decides the constitutionality of legislation.

Representatives have the power to impeach (Article I, Section 2, clause 5) judges for bad behavior (Article III, Section I, clause 1).
 
The calendar on my wall indicates it is 2013. The history book on the shelf next to it tells of a USA which has changed dramatically over the last 225 years.

Learning to live with both would go a long way towards acceptance of reality.

this shows you think because its not 1787, government can do anything it pleases, of coarse you will not feel that way when they do things you disagree with.
 
The people also govern well, at first. As long as there are any living who remember the days of oppression, they guard their liberties with a jealous vigor. Nevertheless, as future generations inherit the same privileges of democracy as their ancestors, yet without effort, they cease to cherish those benefits (6.9.5). Eventually individuals arise among them who, seeking pre-eminence, cater to the creature comforts of the masses, thereby hoping to win their favor. People sell cheap those liberties that have cost them nothing personally. Once the masses accept these demagogues, the cycle of tyranny begins again. This is the cycle Polybius calls a)naku/klwsij.

This is the lesson liberals need to learn.
 
The SC does not decide the constitutionality of the Constitution, it decides the constitutionality of legislation.

Representatives have the power to impeach (Article I, Section 2, clause 5) judges for bad behavior (Article III, Section I, clause 1).

there is no such thing as "the constitutionality of the Constitution". That is a contradiction in terms.... an oxymoron is you will.

perhaps this will help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6deudS3t7E

By its very appearance there, everything in the Constitution is by reality constitutional. It is impossible to be otherwise.
 
there is no such thing as "the constitutionality of the Constitution". That is a contradiction in terms.... an oxymoron is you will.

Well you figured that one out. Yes, that what I wrote the SC does not decide the constitutionality of the Constitution. The SC can't amend the Constitution, Article V.
 
Well you figured that one out. Yes, that what I wrote the SC does not decide the constitutionality of the Constitution. The SC can't amend the Constitution, Article V.

You miss the point. There is no such thing as ANYBODY, ANYONE or ANY ENTITY deciding the so called 'constitutionality of the Constitution' as everything in the Constitution by its very nature and reality is indeed constitutional. For you to introduce the phrase in your post is an exercise in folly.
 
You miss the point. There is no such thing as ANYBODY, ANYONE or ANY ENTITY deciding the so called 'constitutionality of the Constitution' as everything in the Constitution by its very nature and reality is indeed constitutional. For you to introduce the phrase in your post is an exercise in folly.

You missed the point. The topic was SC decisions and those decisions are meaningless to the Constitution and citizens.
 
You missed the point. The topic was SC decisions and those decisions are meaningless to the Constitution and citizens.

What do you mean that SC decisions are meaningless to the Constitution and citizens? How is that any representation of reality when it is those very SC decisions which decide for the rest of us what the current meaning of the Constitution is and how it is applied across the nation for its citizens?
 
What do you mean that SC decisions are meaningless to the Constitution and citizens? How is that any representation of reality when it is those very SC decisions which decide for the rest of us what the current meaning of the Constitution is and how it is applied across the nation for its citizens?

Article V - three fourths of the States legislatures, not the SC, have the power to amend the Constitution. Article 1, Section 1, clause 1, only Congress, not the SC, has the power to legislate. The SC is nothing, neither decides anything for the Constitution nor for the People.
 
Article V - three fourths of the States legislatures, not the SC, have the power to amend the Constitution. Article 1, Section 1, clause 1, only Congress, not the SC, has the power to legislate. The SC is nothing, neither decides anything for the Constitution nor for the People.

Why are you confusing SC decision with Amendments?

I really do not see your point and you are not doing a good job of explaining it. The SC interprets the Constitution. They have taken that - judicial review - as one of their powers and neither other branch ever challenged it and that power has stood for over two centuries now and is every bit as much of reality as the V Amendment is.

I do not see what your point is.
 
Why are you confusing SC decision with Amendments?

I really do not see your point and you are not doing a good job of explaining it. The SC interprets the Constitution. They have taken that - judicial review - as one of their powers and neither other branch ever challenged it and that power has stood for over two centuries now and is every bit as much of reality as the V Amendment is.

I do not see what your point is.

Why is it you don't understand Article V? The SC interprets legislation and SC interpretations cannot alter, change, or amend the Constitution.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom