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indefinite detention without a trial?

It takes being touched by it -- even indirectly -- to open your eyes.

Personally, I find police authority in this country to be dubious already, and the criminal justice system is broken in many ways, but the issue seems to have little cultural currency. For me, it took people close to me -- people whom I knew, factually, were innocent of the charges -- being accused to open my eyes to the failings of our system. Most Americans, I think, expect to be treated fairly by American authorities, and should they ever be accused, they will be shocked by the attitudes they face.

The sad fact is that "criminals" are easily dismissed. Once someone is under the shadow of suspicion, others make dangerous assumptions about that person's character, to the point where any charge, no matter how far removed from the actual circumstances in question, becomes plausible.

That's why I find the label "terrorist" -- as used in this law -- so troubling. True acts of terrorism are horrifying, so once you apply that label, you open up all sorts of associations, whether merited or not. Anyone so labeled will become invisible to society, unworthy of empathy, sympathy or even base consideration. Even those defending them -- if any defense is allowed -- would be tainted by the stench of it, and those speaking out against such treatment also open themselves up to suspicion.

I am against indefinite detention of any sort under any circumstances. It's either trial or tyranny.

I'm not quoting this post because I have anything to add. I'm quoting it because it's nice to run into exactly someone else who is saying the same thing I've been saying on the subject of criminal justice, and hitting "Like" simply wasn't enough.

:cheers:
 
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If that law was to only apply to suspects who were non-citizens or citizens captured outside of American soil then sure I would support it. Because our constitution only applies on US soil.Don't believe me try carrying a gun or say something deemed offensive to Muslims or gays on British soil.

That has nothing to do with this case. You are comparing another country arresting people in their country for things illegal there with the government arresting people in another country for crimes here.

Yes, Iran could arrest you and put you in prison for what you say if you are in Iran. The U.S. government can not arrest you for saying something in Iran and hold you indefinately.
 
I'm still not absolutely clear as to who this applies to. If it is American citizens there is nothing to worry about, the courts will quickly toss it.
Of course the idiots who would pass it are still in office which is a travesty.
Not til after someone is detained and the case comes to their docket.
 

What if a bomb goes off in a police station in Oakland, or an IRS office in Texas?

...

If these laws are passed, we would be forced to rely upon the discretion of a demonstrably corrupt and consistently idiotic government to not use these awful powers to strike back at legitimate domestic unrest.


Since when, Mr. Taibbi, are bombs "legitimate domestic unrest"?

Stretching his hyperbole to cover OWS takes away focus from the much more important fact that the U.S. has pursued domestic terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber without the need of such powers.

Unless there is an actual hot war here on American soil, suspension of habeas corpus is completely unnecessary, besides the fact that holding a person without even a military tribunal should be abhorrent to conscience. The possibility of another terrorist attack is hardly justification for such sweeping ignorance of basic human rights.
 
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What if a bomb goes off in a police station in Oakland, or an IRS office in Texas?

...

If these laws are passed, we would be forced to rely upon the discretion of a demonstrably corrupt and consistently idiotic government to not use these awful powers to strike back at legitimate domestic unrest.


Since when, Mr. Taibbi, are bombs "legitimate domestic unrest"?

Stretching his hyperbole to cover OWS takes away focus from the much more important fact that the U.S. has pursued domestic terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber without the need of such powers.

Unless there is an actual hot war here on American soil, suspension of habeas corpus is completely unnecessary, besides the fact that holding a person without even a military tribunal should be abhorrent to conscience. The possibility of another terrorist attack is hardly justification for such sweeping ignorance of basic human rights.

Didn't seem like they had any trouble finding Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma bombing, and that was before all of these terrorism laws that were created "for our safety". The criminal justice system didn't need special powers to deal with such acts, but now we have them, and Americans are being denied habeus corpus under dubious circumstances.

Now with the National Defense Act, people can be tried under military tribunal or not tried at all, indefinitely. Anyone who thinks this is a good thing is a hack who doesn't understand the bill of rights or the Constitution.

SCOTUS better shoot down this shady piece of legislation; however, the fact that our congress supported its passing should be turning heads. Our congress is totally corrupt.
 
There are certain instances where I can understand having a military trial. That is fine as long as they get legal representations and everything else alloted to others.
 
There are certain instances where I can understand having a military trial. That is fine as long as they get legal representations and everything else alloted to others.

How do you feel about not having a trial at all?

He's a suspected supporter of XX, which is a suspected terrorist organization. Lock him up until the war on terror is over.

or until we can teach him to love Big Brother, but then, that's down the road a little still.
 
The wording in this bill has changed substantially since the original bill's wording drew fury. It begins on page 359 of this document:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867pcs/pdf/BILLS-112s1867pcs.pdf

I read thru it hurriedly and dis not see the portion that allowed the military to detain people indefinitely without trial, but may have missed it. I don't have time to read it thoroughly.
 
How do you feel about not having a trial at all?

He's a suspected supporter of XX, which is a suspected terrorist organization. Lock him up until the war on terror is over.

or until we can teach him to love Big Brother, but then, that's down the road a little still.

I've always been against not permitting a trial. Those who were convicted of killing Lincoln were convicted in a military trial.
 
Lucky him. He was taken publicly enough that a group was able to use social pressure to get his case moved. There are thousands more just like him who were not known the public and had no such champions. The court didn't do anything for Padilla. If not for outside intervention, he would not have gotten any justice.

Sorry, conspiracy theories do not trump posted facts. If it happens again the outrage will be the same.
 
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Holy crap. Obama is even worse than Bush. What if the next guy is worse than that?

Seems that will depend on what party he belongs to and how well the other side can drown out the complaints.
 
I've been reading about this and have come to the conclusion that we are completely and utterly ****ed. This fascist puppet democracy is about to be a dictatorship led by the military industrial complex where all our basic freedoms are gone.
 
I'm not a fan of the President, but I think it's important to note that neither of these things are his pet projects. They're being supported on both sides of the isle.

It's not that Obama has a love of power -- the whole government does.
 
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