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My Internal Conflict with SS and the Constitution

no, that is mistaking costs for expenditures. the single-payer systems have proven able to restrict expenditures, but due to the political incentives involved, it has proven extremely difficult for them. Britain, for example, is now openly rationing surgeries.

what is needed is a way to reduce expenditures by the process of lowering and holding down costs so that we lose less in terms of access.

fortunately, we have a number of experiences that demonstrate how to go about doing that.

These countries all have higher quality of care than we do, so if they have lower expenditures that is either because they spend the money more wisely or because they also have lower costs. Really it's a combination of the two. Either way though, costs people less and gives them better quality care, so that's a big win.

If you have some big ideas about how to fix it without a public option or single payer, but all means, lay it out there. So far I've never heard anybody on the right with an idea that sounded like anything more than rearranging deck chairs on the titanic... Let the companies sell insurance in all the states under the same name and whatnot.
 
the program is only solvent to 2036 if the US General fund produces trillions in surpluses starting next year.

in reality-land, however, the general fund isn't going to do that, and Medicare will drag SS down with it in or around 2020.

Thanks for your opinion internet guy, but the experts say raising the FICA cap to $180,000 makes SS solvent again, without cutting benefits to seniors:

"Social Security is not at all responsible for the federal deficit. Just the opposite. Until last year, Social Security took in more payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits. It invested the surpluses in Treasury bills -- in effect, lending them to the rest of the government.

But now Social Security has started to pay out more than it takes in. So to keep it going, it collects only what the rest of the government is obligated to pay it. This will keep it fully solvent for the next 26 years.

But why should there even be a problem 26 years from now? Back in 1983, Alan Greenspan's Social Security commission was supposed to have fixed the system far beyond then by gradually increasing payroll taxes and raising the retirement age.

The answer is Greenspan's commission failed to predict how much income would become concentrated at the top. Remember, the Social Security payroll tax applies only to earnings up to a certain ceiling that rises with inflation. That ceiling is now $106,800.

Back in 1983, the ceiling was set so the Social Security payroll tax would hit 90 percent of total income covered by Social Security. Today, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.

It went from 90 percent to 84 percent because income inequality has widened. Now a much larger portion of total income goes to the top -- almost twice the share they got back then.

If we want to return to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000. Do that and Social Security's long-term problem is solved.

So there's no reason even to consider reducing Social Security benefits or raising the age of eligibility. The logical response is simply to raise the ceiling.

Not incidentally, several months ago the White House considered proposing that the ceiling be lifted to $180,000. Somehow, though, that proposal didn't make it into the president's budget."
 
the Justice Department recently has sued two states (Arizona and Alabama) for actually cracking down on illegal immigration.

remind me again which party runs those two states, and which runs the Administration?

Obama is a centrist, but the Democratic Party has always been more anti-immigration solely because of their union sponsorship.

And as every intelligent person knows, the party's rhetoric is irrelevant--pols just say whatever it takes to get elected. Their allegiances are always to their sponsors.

So what's happening in AZ and Alabama? As I'm sure you're aware, the GOP is split into two camps : the neoconservatives (which comprises the backbone of the GOP leadership) like dumbya, wolfowitz, krauthammer, etc. and the paleoconservatives (the fringe element) like pat buchanan or tom tancredo.

So the paleoconservatives have apparently gained a foothold in the legislatures of those two states. Needless to say, that foothold will break easily, because the GOP backbone will inevitably squash them.
 
There is no guarantee whatsoever that SS benefits will be consistently paid out, or even at specific amounts. SS is not a legally enforceable contract, period.

If the American public wants fiscal accountability from their pols, they're going to have to get into their pants, i. e. dig up their personal sex lives (affairs, etc.) and use it against them.
 
These countries all have higher quality of care than we do, so if they have lower expenditures that is either because they spend the money more wisely or because they also have lower costs.

that is incorrect - those nations have lower quality of care; most especially in terms of access. not only do Americans have higher survival rates for severe injuries and diseases (cancer, for example, is easy to compare), we have better access to preventative treatment and screenings, and we spend less time waiting for our larger and qualitatively superior healthcare resources to serve us. Even our low-income folks are in better health than (for example) comparable Canadians, and Americans are more satisfied with their healthcare than Canadians, Germans, French, the British.... In addition, by performing an overwhelming disproportionate amount of medical research and innovation, the US System actually subsidizes other nations' healthcare.

There is a reason Canadian Premiers come to the United States when they need heart surgery. They want the highest quality available.

If you have some big ideas about how to fix it without a public option or single payer, but all means, lay it out there. So far I've never heard anybody on the right with an idea that sounded like anything more than rearranging deck chairs on the titanic... Let the companies sell insurance in all the states under the same name and whatnot.

that would be a huge benefit, namely because it would remove the ability of state politicians to jack up prices in return for campaign donations. currently in many states health insurance agencies enjoy a monopolistic or guaranteed position thanks to their relationship with state governments. In my home state of Alabama, for example, Blue Cross / Blue Shield basically owns about 90+% of the market, because the state border restriction allows them to work state politicians to protect and ensure their market share. the way it works is thus:

All the doctors and providers of Idaho's plastic surgery industry get together and agree that they are an underutilized resource. Plastic surgery makes people happy, better, and increases their quality of life. What keeps people from getting plastic surgery? Well, it costs money. So, if we want to get more people to buy our product, we need to lower the cost paid by the patient.

Plastic Surgeons United organizes as a PAC and goes and talks to various important members of Idaho's state congress. They discuss the importance of plastic surgery, the importance of winning elections, the importance of having enough money to win elections, and how all of these problems can solve each other. So Idaho's congress passes a law that all insurance agencies must cover plastic surgery in every policy they sell.

Now, the Insurance Agencies aren't going to like that; it hampers them, and so Insurers of Idaho United march on up to Capital hill where Congresscritters take them out to lunch and discuss things like the importance of fine-tuning regulation, the importance of a good working relationship between regulators and regulated, the importance of having the government fine-tune regulation so as to provide particular insurance agencies with guaranteed market share, the importance of politicians who favor particular agencies with such guarantees winning elections, and the importance of therefore making sure that those politicians campaigns are well-funded.

Plastic Surgeons get more business. The handful of largest insurance agencies that are able to donate enough money to congresscritters get protected status from the state and guaranteed market share. Congresscritters get two new sources of guaranteed campaign funding. Everyone wins!

well, except for the consumers in Idaho, who are now stuck with higher insurance premiums for services they did not want. they kind of get it in the shorts. Taking away the state border restriction would take away the ability of the above-described medical triad to screw over state consumers, and would indeed lower the price of health insurance.



however, that's just A good idea. there are plenty others. the most fundamental one is that we allow health insurance to start acting like... well, insurance. Consider, for example, your car insurance. Why do you have it? You have it in case of a wreck, in case it is totaled, in case of a catastrophic event. You wouldn't expect your auto insurance to fill up your car, or change your oil - that's not what it is for - it is there to insure you against the risk of catastrophic loss. If it had to pay for gas or an oil change, you wouldn't be buying insurance, you would simply be using your insurance company as a prepay for gasoline and oil changes. Yet this is precisely what we do with health insurance. When we go to the doctor for a semi-annual; we expect insurance to at least partially cover it. Ditto for regular medicines, and so on and so forth. Consider what kind of gasoline you buy now, and what you pay for oil changes now. Would this change if you no longer had to pay for it? Of course it would - if an insurance company were paying for these things, your incentives would be to get as much out of your premium as you could, and so you would buy the most expensive gasoline, and you would get the oil change with the tire rotation and the full fluid check and top-off every time. You would consume more resources than you would otherwise, if you were paying for these services themselves. And so would everyone else. Everyone consuming more than they would otherwise will drive up demand, which, in the absence of a rapid increase in supply, will cause prices to skyrocket, and continue to do so. Exactly like what we see with healthcare.


So, the solution to the cost of our healthcare (and, thus, the solution to our rising expenditures) is to find a way to bring price pressure to bear on general, predictable costs while still covering catastrophic potentialities. In other words, we need to bring market pressure to bear, as currently it is kept out of the system. Fortunately for our discussion here, several have been tried, and the results of this testing have been striking:

plans that utilize market pressure have consistently demonstrated an ability to push down expenditures:

Indiana offered HSA's, which have patients save money in tax-free accounts (where it grows and remains theirs forever and ever unless theys pend it) matched with high deductible plans to it's employees. Employees began to respond to price signals, and medical costs per patient were reduced by 33% and expenditures to the state were reduced by 11%.

Safeway has instituted a program that gave financial incentives to people who engaged in healthy behavior by allowing price signals in the insurance side of the market to work (Indiana worked on the medical side), and saw it's per-captia health care costs remain flat from 2005-2009; when most companies saw theirs jump by 38%.

Whole Foods instituted HSA's, and let's the employees choose what they want the company to fund. This institutes price pressure on the medical side (WF covers the high-deductible plan 100%), and their CEO points out that as a result Whole Foods' per-capita costs are much lower than typical insurance programs, while maintaining employee satisfaction.

Wendy's instituted HSA's, and saw the number of their employees who got preventative and annual checkup care climb even as they saw claims decrease by 14% (in one year).​

but wait! all of these are small private programs. Surely none of them demonstrate the kind of effects that we would see in a massive systemic change such as in Medicare.

oh. :)


At the time of its enactment in 2003, the Medicare drug benefit — known as Medicare Part D — had many critics. Some said the program, which is built on consumer choice and vigorous competition among private plans, wouldn’t work, because the private plans would decline to participate without a guaranteed share of the market. Others said the beneficiaries wouldn’t sign up for the voluntary benefit, because the competitive structure would be too complex to navigate. Still others said the program would explode in costs without government-imposed price controls.

All these predictions were dead wrong. The program is now in its sixth year of operation, and it has exceeded all expectations. Some 90 percent of Medicare participants are now in secure drug coverage of some sort, and public-opinion surveys continue to show that seniors are very satisfied with the new program. Most important, the drug benefit’s costs for the first decade are coming in 42 percent below what was predicted at the time of enactment....

In early 2004, the actuaries at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) issued national health-expenditure projections indicating that total retail prescription-drug spending for the ensuing decade would reach about $3.5 trillion. In early 2010, the actuaries released new projections estimating drug spending for the same ten-year period at about $2.4 trillion, or 31 percent below the previous projection. But these projections include prescription-drug spending for both the elderly and the non-elderly. What would the numbers look like if the drop in drug spending for the elderly (about one-third of all spending) were removed from the estimates? When that is done, the drop in projected spending for everyone else is shown to be less pronounced — just about 27 percent...

Obamacare apologists are constantly arguing that changes in Medicare have the potential to influence the entire health-care market. Well, if that’s the case, it would apply to Part D as well. For instance, Part D plans have aggressively pushed generic substitution as a way to lower premiums — and they have had considerable success. Isn’t it likely that this trend among the elderly has influenced how physicians and pharmacists behave with all their patients?...

[T]he whole point of Part D’s consumer-choice structure is that it allows enrollees to migrate out of plans with high costs to those with lower costs. And, not surprisingly, that has happened every year of the program’s operation... on an “all in” basis, Part D has been a phenomenal success story, as shown in the graph below. From 2006 to 2010, per capita Part D costs across all settings have risen by an average of just 1.2 percent annually, which is well below the per capita rise in costs for the rest of Medicare.​

capretta_piece_graphic.jpg
 
Obama is a centrist, but the Democratic Party has always been more anti-immigration solely because of their union sponsorship.

And as every intelligent person knows, the party's rhetoric is irrelevant--pols just say whatever it takes to get elected. Their allegiances are always to their sponsors.

So what's happening in AZ and Alabama? As I'm sure you're aware, the GOP is split into two camps : the neoconservatives (which comprises the backbone of the GOP leadership) like dumbya, wolfowitz, krauthammer, etc. and the paleoconservatives (the fringe element) like pat buchanan or tom tancredo.

So the paleoconservatives have apparently gained a foothold in the legislatures of those two states. Needless to say, that foothold will break easily, because the GOP backbone will inevitably squash them.

well, actually, being from Alabama I can tell you that Republicans are pretty much unified in this - and as I understand it, they are so in Arizona as well. I'm thinking you have "the chamber of commerce" confused with 'the GOP"
 
Thanks for your opinion internet guy, but the experts say raising the FICA cap to $180,000 makes SS solvent again, without cutting benefits to seniors:

"Social Security is not at all responsible for the federal deficit. Just the opposite. Until last year, Social Security took in more payroll taxes than it paid out in benefits. It invested the surpluses in Treasury bills -- in effect, lending them to the rest of the government.

But now Social Security has started to pay out more than it takes in. So to keep it going, it collects only what the rest of the government is obligated to pay it. This will keep it fully solvent for the next 26 years.

But why should there even be a problem 26 years from now? Back in 1983, Alan Greenspan's Social Security commission was supposed to have fixed the system far beyond then by gradually increasing payroll taxes and raising the retirement age.

The answer is Greenspan's commission failed to predict how much income would become concentrated at the top. Remember, the Social Security payroll tax applies only to earnings up to a certain ceiling that rises with inflation. That ceiling is now $106,800.

Back in 1983, the ceiling was set so the Social Security payroll tax would hit 90 percent of total income covered by Social Security. Today, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.

It went from 90 percent to 84 percent because income inequality has widened. Now a much larger portion of total income goes to the top -- almost twice the share they got back then.

If we want to return to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000. Do that and Social Security's long-term problem is solved.

So there's no reason even to consider reducing Social Security benefits or raising the age of eligibility. The logical response is simply to raise the ceiling.

Not incidentally, several months ago the White House considered proposing that the ceiling be lifted to $180,000. Somehow, though, that proposal didn't make it into the president's budget."

firstly, whenever someone says "oh, all that has to happen is the General Fund has to pay back the Trust Fund", realize at that point that you are talking to someone who does not want to face reality.

the reality is that with the cost of Medicare exploding, and the cost of Social Security set to do the same, there will not be enough money in the General Fund to pay back the Trust Fund. Not only that, you cannot tax enough to get that kind of money. Even President Obama now publicly admits this; joining the list of folks from Bill Clinton to his own Bi Partisan Debt Commission, to Paul Ryan, to the Medicare/Medicaid Actuaries, to the CBO... etc.

The General Fund is looking at massive deficits for the next 10 years. There is simply no realistic set of mathematics that gets' us to the point where we could pay back the Trust Fund.

as for the big at the Greenspan commission, what baloney. because more people paying the top rate somehow means less revenue :roll:
 
firstly, whenever someone says "oh, all that has to happen is the General Fund has to pay back the Trust Fund", realize at that point that you are talking to someone who does not want to face reality.

the reality is that with the cost of Medicare exploding, and the cost of Social Security set to do the same, there will not be enough money in the General Fund to pay back the Trust Fund. Not only that, you cannot tax enough to get that kind of money. Even President Obama now publicly admits this; joining the list of folks from Bill Clinton to his own Bi Partisan Debt Commission, to Paul Ryan, to the Medicare/Medicaid Actuaries, to the CBO... etc.

The General Fund is looking at massive deficits for the next 10 years. There is simply no realistic set of mathematics that gets' us to the point where we could pay back the Trust Fund.

as for the big at the Greenspan commission, what baloney. because more people paying the top rate somehow means less revenue :roll:

Even your gloomy math predictions assume politicians are the doing the right thing; it's even worse when you consider what they're really doing. This new Super Committee is a joke, and Lieberman said both sides will stuff the committee with people who will maintain the status quo.
 
Even your gloomy math predictions assume politicians are the doing the right thing; it's even worse when you consider what they're really doing. This new Super Committee is a joke, and Lieberman said both sides will stuff the committee with people who will maintain the status quo.

Eh, at least we have the emergency security measures or whatever they're called so that when the Super Congress fails, we won't default. I wish that Pelosi/Boehner would pick people who actually want to initiate change, but I doubt it'll happen. Be interesting to if any Tea Party people get on there, and if so how many.
 
Eh, at least we have the emergency security measures or whatever they're called so that when the Super Congress fails, we won't default. I wish that Pelosi/Boehner would pick people who actually want to initiate change, but I doubt it'll happen. Be interesting to if any Tea Party people get on there, and if so how many.

I doubt you'll see Tea Party congressman on there.
 
Sure social security is constitutional. It is just two things- taxing and spending. Those are the very first powers the constitution gives the Congress- the taxing and spending clause. Article 1, section 8, clause 1.

For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter. The objection here is the more extraordinary, as it appears that the language used by the convention is a copy from the articles of Confederation. The objects of the Union among the States, as described in article third, are "their common defense, security of their liberties, and mutual and general welfare. " The terms of article eighth are still more identical: "All charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury," etc. - James Madison, Federalist No. 41
 
- James Madison, Federalist No. 41

Madison thought the spending power only applied to the other powers. Jefferson did too. Hamilton thought it was a separate power. The founders were split on what it should mean. The way it is written is as a separate power. That is what was ratified- the language of the constitution, not the random musing of the framers. And you couldn't really have a government at all if it really only applied to the other enumerated powers, at least not a first world one, so the courts have always treated it as a separate power.
 
Hey all, I have been away the last two days. but this has been very informative for me. Thank you.

Here is some info on selling insurance across state lines. We need to balance liberal ideas of basic regulations with conservative ideas of a free market so people can buy cheaper insurance that covers basic needs.

FAQ: Selling Health Insurance Across State Lines - Kaiser Health News

We do not have the highest quality on average. If you can afford it like wealthy dignitaries, sure. But if we are talking about the average American we have a problem. Even without a single player plan we still spend more on insurance.
Health care system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the WHOs ranking of countries healthcare systems. We are in the middle.
WHO's ranking of health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Madison thought the spending power only applied to the other powers. Jefferson did too. Hamilton thought it was a separate power. The founders were split on what it should mean. The way it is written is as a separate power. That is what was ratified- the language of the constitution, not the random musing of the framers. And you couldn't really have a government at all if it really only applied to the other enumerated powers, at least not a first world one, so the courts have always treated it as a separate power.

I understand that as a liberal, you have to make this argument, but it is, like all the other erroneous claims, not backed up by history. Sorry, but even Alexander Hamilton disagrees with you:

The principles established in a former paper [1] teach us that the States will retain all PRE-EXISTING authorities which may not be exclusively delegated to the federal head; and that this exclusive delegation can only exist in one of three cases: where an exclusive authority is, in express terms, granted to the Union; or where a particular authority is granted to the Union, and the exercise of a like authority is prohibited to the States; or where an authority is granted to the Union, with which a similar authority in the States would be utterly incompatible. Though these principles may not apply with the same force to the judiciary as to the legislative power, yet I am inclined to think that they are, in the main, just with respect to the former, as well as the latter. And under this impression, I shall lay it down as a rule, that the State courts will RETAIN the jurisdiction they now have, unless it appears to be taken away in one of the enumerated modes. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 82

The plan of the convention declares that the power of Congress, or, in other words, of the NATIONAL LEGISLATURE, shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd, as well as useless, if a general authority was intended. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 83
 
I doubt you'll see Tea Party congressman on there.

I think Boehner will feel compelled to appoint at least one.

teamosil said:
Madison thought the spending power only applied to the other powers. Jefferson did too. Hamilton thought it was a separate power.

no, Hamilton wanted it to be a separate power. But, given that Madison was the guy who basically wrote the thing, he is the one who is correct here. Congress was not authorized to spend on whatever it liked - a general mindset that stayed with us for a little over a century. nor are the Federalist Papers considered "random musings" - the Supreme Court cites them.
 
I understand that as a liberal, you have to make this argument, but it is, like all the other erroneous claims, not backed up by history. Sorry, but even Alexander Hamilton disagrees with you:

The principles established in a former paper [1] teach us that the States will retain all PRE-EXISTING authorities which may not be exclusively delegated to the federal head; and that this exclusive delegation can only exist in one of three cases: where an exclusive authority is, in express terms, granted to the Union; or where a particular authority is granted to the Union, and the exercise of a like authority is prohibited to the States; or where an authority is granted to the Union, with which a similar authority in the States would be utterly incompatible. Though these principles may not apply with the same force to the judiciary as to the legislative power, yet I am inclined to think that they are, in the main, just with respect to the former, as well as the latter. And under this impression, I shall lay it down as a rule, that the State courts will RETAIN the jurisdiction they now have, unless it appears to be taken away in one of the enumerated modes. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 82

The plan of the convention declares that the power of Congress, or, in other words, of the NATIONAL LEGISLATURE, shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd, as well as useless, if a general authority was intended. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 83

yeah, Hamilton basically turned into a douche. he would have been our Napoleon if he could have. small-man syndrome gone wrong.
 
yeah, Hamilton basically turned into a douche. he would have been our Napoleon if he could have. small-man syndrome gone wrong.

Yes he did, but that was after the Constitution had been sold to the ratifying conventions as having a Federal Government with defined and limited authority. Had it been sold as an unlimited government, we might still be under the Articles of Confederation or split off into various confederations. Thank goodness it was agreed that the Federal Government was limited. Too bad that concept has been bastardized by the liberals of the 20th and 21st Century.
 
Hey all, I have been away the last two days. but this has been very informative for me. Thank you.

Here is some info on selling insurance across state lines. We need to balance liberal ideas of basic regulations with conservative ideas of a free market so people can buy cheaper insurance that covers basic needs.

FAQ: Selling Health Insurance Across State Lines - Kaiser Health News

good on them for recognizing the benefit of lowering the state barrier, but this article? think about this:

...If insurers can sell beyond state lines, the concern is that consumers would be attracted to the least comprehensive policies because they would be cheapest -- some call it "a race to the bottom." For example, someone could buy a policy in a state that doesn't mandate coverage of diabetic supplies and then the consumer could be stuck with higher bills.

In addition, insurers selling across state lines might market policies to younger, healthier individuals. That could leave the insurance pool with older and sicker individuals, who would face ever-rising rates -- or face being turned down -- because their insurers would have fewer healthy people to spread risk....

so, if we allow people to make any old decision they want, they might make ones of which we disapprove, and if insurance companies try to sell to younger, healthier people (who are currently a large percentage of our uninsured, largely because they feel they don't need it), then that will somehow reduce the number of younger, healthier people in the insurance pool.

the discussion I posted above about the Plastic Surgeons PAC screwing over the consumer? this link basically says that's a good thing.

We do not have the highest quality on average. If you can afford it like wealthy dignitaries, sure. But if we are talking about the average American we have a problem. Even without a single player plan we still spend more on insurance.
Health care system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

actually, even when you compare our poor to other nations, our poor are usually faring better than their comparable population - especially in terms of access. and our averages are better - most especially our cancer survival averages when compared to the nations of Europe.

Here is the WHOs ranking of countries healthcare systems. We are in the middle.
WHO's ranking of health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that is because the WHO uses a series of non-medical factors to make that ranking. one of them (to pull out an example) is equity of treatment. So, say that Nation A and Nation B both suffer a high incident of a debilitating condition that costs the lives of 100,000 people a year. Nation A develops a cure, but it is expensive, and so far it can only cure half it's people. Not wanting to be unfair, Nation B refuses to allow the cure alltogether. So now Nation A is saving 50,000 lives a year, while Nation B is still losing 100,000.

Nation A will now move down in the WHO rankings, while Nation B will move up. Despite the fact that, by any sane measure, Nation A's healthcare has improved and B's has not.
 
Yes he did, but that was after the Constitution had been sold to the ratifying conventions as having a Federal Government with defined and limited authority. Had it been sold as an unlimited government, we might still be under the Articles of Confederation or split off into various confederations. Thank goodness it was agreed that the Federal Government was limited. Too bad that concept has been bastardized by the liberals of the 20th and 21st Century.

we'll get back there. slowly. that's the beauty of knowing the Founders were right - it means that eventually systems which follow those basic guidelines will beat out systems that don't.
 
we'll get back there. slowly. that's the beauty of knowing the Founders were right - it means that eventually systems which follow those basic guidelines will beat out systems that don't.

I wish I had your sense of confidence.
 
I understand that as a liberal, you have to make this argument, but it is, like all the other erroneous claims, not backed up by history. Sorry, but even Alexander Hamilton disagrees with you:

The principles established in a former paper [1] teach us that the States will retain all PRE-EXISTING authorities which may not be exclusively delegated to the federal head; and that this exclusive delegation can only exist in one of three cases: where an exclusive authority is, in express terms, granted to the Union; or where a particular authority is granted to the Union, and the exercise of a like authority is prohibited to the States; or where an authority is granted to the Union, with which a similar authority in the States would be utterly incompatible. Though these principles may not apply with the same force to the judiciary as to the legislative power, yet I am inclined to think that they are, in the main, just with respect to the former, as well as the latter. And under this impression, I shall lay it down as a rule, that the State courts will RETAIN the jurisdiction they now have, unless it appears to be taken away in one of the enumerated modes. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 82

The plan of the convention declares that the power of Congress, or, in other words, of the NATIONAL LEGISLATURE, shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd, as well as useless, if a general authority was intended. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 83

Right, that doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all. Spending is an enumerated power. They don't have a general all encompassing power, but they do have the power to spend.
 
no, Hamilton wanted it to be a separate power. But, given that Madison was the guy who basically wrote the thing, he is the one who is correct here.

The legitimacy of the constitution doesn't come just from whoever happened to write a particular passage, it comes from the ratification process. What was ratified was the words in the constitution. The words in the constitution flat out say that Congress has an enumerated power to spend.
 
Right, that doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all. Spending is an enumerated power. They don't have a general all encompassing power, but they do have the power to spend.

You are in denial. I have yet to meet a liberal here who wasn't in denial on this topic. What's worse is that I actually think you know better. Again, here is what Hamilton said and this relates directly to negating your misunderstanding [I'm being generouse here].

"This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd, as well as useless, if a general authority was intended."

Only someone in denial could not see that Hamilton was perfectly clear in his writing and he is clearly stating that your argument is "absurd." Madison, also, believes your argument is an "absurdity."

If clause 1 were about spending, there would be no limitation to the purposes for which spending could be done. If that were true, we would not have this Constitution as it would not have been ratified.
 
The legitimacy of the constitution doesn't come just from whoever happened to write a particular passage, it comes from the ratification process. What was ratified was the words in the constitution. The words in the constitution flat out say that Congress has an enumerated power to spend.

No it doesn't. You are correct that the ratification was very important to what the Constitution means. I will gladly begin posting what was said in ratifying conventions.
 
You are in denial. I have yet to meet a liberal here who wasn't in denial on this topic. What's worse is that I actually think you know better. Again, here is what Hamilton said and this relates directly to negating your misunderstanding [I'm being generouse here].

"This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd, as well as useless, if a general authority was intended."

Only someone in denial could not see that Hamilton was perfectly clear in his writing and he is clearly stating that your argument is "absurd." Madison, also, believes your argument is an "absurdity."

If clause 1 were about spending, there would be no limitation to the purposes for which spending could be done. If that were true, we would not have this Constitution as it would not have been ratified.

Right. They can spend on whatever they want. That doesn't mean they have any other power. You can spend on whatever you want too. That doesn't make you all powerful. If they just want to spend money, they can do that, but if they wanted to, say, blow something up, they would need to find another enumerated power to justify it because that isn't spending.

Hamilton absolutely, unequivocally, felt that the clause allowed the government to spend on whatever it wanted. He said so many times in the most emphatic terms:

The National Legislature has express authority "To lay and Collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the Common defence and general welfare" with no other qualifications than that "all duties, imposts and excises, shall be uniform throughout the United states, that no capitation or other direct tax shall be laid unless in proportion to numbers ascertained by a census or enumeration taken on the principles prescribed in the Constitution, and that "no tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state." These three qualifications excepted, the power to raise money is plenary, and indefinite; and the objects to which it may be appropriated are no less comprehensive, than the payment of the public debts and the providing for the common defence and "general Welfare." The terms "general Welfare" were doubtless intended to signify more than was expressed or imported in those which Preceded; otherwise numerous exigencies incident to the affairs of a Nation would have been left without a provision.

-Alexander Hamilton
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1: Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures

Hamilton and Madison disagreed bitterly over the role of government. In some areas Madison and those more like him won, in other areas Hamilton and those more like him won. This is clearly one of the areas where the Hamilton types won, since the constitution flat out says that Congress can tax and spend and the only limit it places on it is that it needs to be either for the general welfare or common defense. Madison would have preferred that it say instead that it had to serve one of the following goals, but it doesn't say that.
 
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