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My Internal Conflict with SS and the Constitution

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Madison said that using the first clause of Article I, section 8, the way you describe is an "absurdity." There are others who agreed with him. Here what a few said on the matter:

Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter.

The objection here is the more extraordinary, as it appears that the language used by the convention is a copy from the articles of Confederation. The objects of the Union among the States, as described in article third, are "their common defense, security of their liberties, and mutual and general welfare." The terms of article eighth are still more identical: "All charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury," etc. A similar language again occurs in article ninth. Construe either of these articles by the rules which would justify the construction put on the new Constitution, and they vest in the existing Congress a power to legislate in all cases whatsoever. But what would have been thought of that assembly, if, attaching themselves to these general expressions, and disregarding the specifications which ascertain and limit their import, they had exercised an unlimited power of providing for the common defense and general welfare? I appeal to the objectors themselves, whether they would in that case have employed the same reasoning in justification of Congress as they now make use of against the convention. How difficult it is for error to escape its own condemnation!
- James Madison, Federalist No. 41

Mr. GEORGE NICHOLAS, in reply to the gentlemen opposed to the clause under debate, went over the same grounds, and developed the same principles, which Mr. Pendleton and Mr. Madison had done. The opposers of the clause, which gave the power of providing for the general welfare, supposed its dangers to result from its connection with, and extension of, the powers granted in the other clauses. He endeavored to show the committee that it only empowered Congress to make such laws as would be necessary to enable them to pay the public debts and provide for the common defence; that this general welfare was united, not to the general power of legislation, but to the particular power of laying and collecting taxes, imposts, and excises, for the purpose of paying the debts and providing for the common defence, — that is, that they could raise as much money as would pay the debts and provide for the common defence, in consequence of this power. The clause which was affectedly called the sweeping clause contained no new grant of power. To illustrate this position, he observed that, if it had been added at the end of every one of the enumerated powers, instead of being inserted at the end of all, it would be obvious to any one that it was no augmentation of power. If, for instance, at the end of the clause granting power to lay and collect taxes, it had been added that they should have power to make necessary and proper laws to lay and collect taxes, who could suspect it to be an addition of power? As it would grant no new power if inserted at the end of each clause, it could not when subjoined to the whole. - Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

But the rhetoric of the gentleman has highly colored the dangers of giving the general government an indefinite power of providing for the general welfare. I contend that no such power is given. They have power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States." Is this an independent, separate, substantive power, to provide for the general welfare of the United States? No, sir. They can lay and collect taxes, &c. For what? To pay the debts and provide for the general welfare. Were not this the case, the following part of the clause would be absurd. It would have been treason against common language. Take it altogether, and let me ask if the plain interpretation be not this — a power to lay and collect taxes, &c., in order to provide for the general welfare and pay debts. - Edmund Randolph, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 17, 1788

If the intent was to be able to raise and spend money for anything that was considered for the "general welfare," then why have an enumeration of authorities. After all, wouldn't "provide for the general welfare and common defense" cover everything?" According to your theory, all of the rest of Article I, section 8, was totally superfluous. And, notice how many things deal directly with the "common defense" of the country. If the first clause usage of "general welfare" covers unlimited subjects, wouldn't "common defense" cover all things dealing with defense? But, they added clauses about an Army and a Navy. They also had ones for militia and for forts and magazines. And, finally, as Madison stated above, a similar clause was used in the Articles of Confederation, but the government certainly had little authority under the Articles. One of its biggest issues was raising funds to operate the government and that is why the first clause of Article I, section 8 even exists.

I don't expect you to agree with this assessment. I also don't expect you to refute it with evidence. I have found that people are entrenched in their opinions on this topic whether they are grounded in fact or not. I just need to express the facts on this subject from time-to-time and now I have.

And there were those that disagreed with him, and why we have SS today. That is really the end of the story with years of those laws you talk about being the precedence for today.
 
And there were those that disagreed with him, and why we have SS today. That is really the end of the story with years of those laws you talk about being the precedence for today.

Before the corruption of the files, I asked about the quotes of those who disagreed with "him." I put "him" in quotes as I was not sure which one of the four poeople I cited you are referring to. Please provide all the quotes you can that show that people during the ratification process disagreed with Madison, Randolph, Nicholas, and Pendleton. Thanks.
 
The constitution sucks because it was crafted by a homogeneous bunch of white fundamentalist racist sexist kkkapitalist pigs. We need to have a constitutional convention and ensure that people of all races, colors, creeds, genders, transexual status, sexual orientation, income and education levels are involved.
 
The constitution sucks because it was crafted by a homogeneous bunch of white fundamentalist racist sexist kkkapitalist pigs. We need to have a constitutional convention and ensure that people of all races, colors, creeds, genders, transexual status, sexual orientation, income and education levels are involved.

roflmao! That was funny.
 
The constitution sucks because it was crafted by a homogeneous bunch of white fundamentalist racist sexist kkkapitalist pigs. We need to have a constitutional convention and ensure that people of all races, colors, creeds, genders, transexual status, sexual orientation, income and education levels are involved.

WOW, i think you need to move to a new country instead of trying to completely wreck the foundations of the greatest country in the world... america gives you the freedom to do so.
 
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