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Another general joins ranks opposing Rumsfeld (1 Viewer)

I believe he should go, the more I hear, the more I regret defending him.:3oops:
 
KidRocks said:
We got Delay, can Rumsfeld be far behind? :cool:







http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/13/iraq.rumsfeld/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The commander who led the elite 82nd Airborne Division during its mission in Iraq has joined the chorus of retired generals calling on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to leave the Pentagon.


I just heard this on NPR...I am shocked that there is so much resistance. Well I guess shocked is a bit strong considering the amount of setbacks there have been...
 
Meh.....

Top General Disputes Criticism Against Rumsfeld


WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, facing calls for his resignation by three retired senior officers for his handling of the Iraq war, received a full-throated endorsement Tuesday from the U.S. military's top general, who insisted that "this country is exceptionally well served" by Rumsfeld's leadership.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, disputed accusations from retired top officers that Rumsfeld had forced the uniformed military into an invasion plan they didn't fully support.

"We had then, and have now, every opportunity to speak our minds, and if we do not, shame on us because the opportunity is there," Pace said at a Pentagon news conference. "The plan that was executed was developed by military officers, presented by military officers, questioned by civilians as they should, revamped by military officers, and blessed by the senior military leadership."


The rest is here.....

http://ebird.afis.mil/cgi-bin/ebird/displaydata.pl?Requested=/ebfiles/e20060412428692.html
 
Is that the 5th or 6th General that has called for his resignation?
 
scottyz said:
Is that the 5th or 6th General that has called for his resignation?

It's the 5th. I posted an earlier one this week, and at that time, it was only 3 Generals. Since then, two more have said that Rumsfeld should go. He should have gone loooooooooooooooooong ago. This is the Secretary Bush needs to get rid of. I hope he doesn't, because his keeping Rumsfeld on is only hurting him.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-i...ired-general-believes-rumsfeld-should-go.html

Here's a NYT article that addresses all 5 of them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/14/washington/14military.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I am curious what GySgt thinks of Rumseld.
 
aps said:
It's the 5th. I posted an earlier one this week, and at that time, it was only 3 Generals. Since then, two more have said that Rumsfeld should go. He should have gone loooooooooooooooooong ago. This is the Secretary Bush needs to get rid of. I hope he doesn't, because his keeping Rumsfeld on is only hurting him.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-iraq/10081-yet-another-retired-general-believes-rumsfeld-should-go.html

Here's a NYT article that addresses all 5 of them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/14/washington/14military.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I am curious what GySgt thinks of Rumseld.

Looks like a couple of hands of poker. One hand contains 5 of a kind Generals. The other contains various civilians with no matching strategy. Call it a president high (and he probably is).
 
Rummy is the man. Ever watch his press conferences? He doesn't waffle. He answers all comers straight up. He beats down stupid reporters with facts and logic. Guy is a friggin genius. All you libs do is complain about how he didn't plan everything exactly right. All battle plans go awry after the first shot is fired. One of the oldest adages in combat. Like there was a script the enemy is supposed to follow. Seems to me you are blaming him for not being able to see perfectly into the future. Women are voting in Iraq. Still no civil war. The total amount of military lives we have lost is astoundingly low. Bush told you all a long time ago this will take a long time and we must stay the course. Seems like he was right from the word go. Would more troops in Iraq stop the insurgency? Hind sight is 20/20 and these friggin Generals are just getting in on the talking head circuit and the book money give away. How many Generals don't say this stuff? That you friggin libs goo all over yourselves when a few generals disagree with the SecDef shows just how desperate you are.
 
teacher said:
Rummy is the man. Ever watch his press conferences? He doesn't waffle. He answers all comers straight up. He beats down stupid reporters with facts and logic. Guy is a friggin genius. All you libs do is complain about how he didn't plan everything exactly right. All battle plans go awry after the first shot is fired. One of the oldest adages in combat. Like there was a script the enemy is supposed to follow. Seems to me you are blaming him for not being able to see perfectly into the future. Women are voting in Iraq. Still no civil war. The total amount of military lives we have lost is astoundingly low. Bush told you all a long time ago this will take a long time and we must stay the course. Seems like he was right from the word go. Would more troops in Iraq stop the insurgency? Hind sight is 20/20 and these friggin Generals are just getting in on the talking head circuit and the book money give away. How many Generals don't say this stuff? That you friggin libs goo all over yourselves when a few generals disagree with the SecDef shows just how desperate you are.

Rumsfeld has been attacked for years based upon his leadership and claims to have given his resignation to Bush on several occasions (which says a lot, by the way), which Bush has rejected. teacher, you can blame people asking for Rumsfeld to resign on the libs all you want. Somehow I am guessing that these 5 generals aren't liberals. They also have served in the military for decades to reach the rank that they have. I give their statments a lot of probative value, particularly when Rumsfeld has never served in the military. Also, they are said to speak for more than just themselves. But keep telling yourself how well Rumsfeld is doing. Hey, this lib wants him to stay in office. The longer he is there, the more it hurts both Bush and the republicans, and that, to me, is a good thing. :cool:

The fact that you are this angry over what retired generals are saying is what is making me goo all over myself. And the amount of anger you exude in your post shows me how desperate you are.
_______________

Here's an article in the Washington Post where McClellan is saying that Bush things Rummy is doing a "very fine job." Yeah, this coming from a man who intentionally avoided serving in Vietnam.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/13/AR2006041300995.html
 
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KidRocks said:
We got Delay, can Rumsfeld be far behind? :cool:







http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/13/iraq.rumsfeld/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The commander who led the elite 82nd Airborne Division during its mission in Iraq has joined the chorus of retired generals calling on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to leave the Pentagon.
If you read your own article, you'll see what some of the generals are having a problem with...

Retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste -- who led the 1st Infantry Division in northern Iraq in 2004-2005 -- called for Rumsfeld's resignation during an interview Wednesday on CNN.

He also suggested other changes among the top brass at the Pentagon.

"I think we need senior military leaders who understand the principles of war and apply them ruthlessly, and when the time comes, they need to call it like it is," he told CNN.
While some here like to get Rumsfeld out because they think he's some sort of diabolical Neocon, this General is saying that Rumsfeld and the crew should've acted in MORE of a "Neocon" way...

He's saying the same thing I've been saying all along...First rule of the Powell Doctrine..."First we're going to cut it off, then we're going to kill it."

Rumsfeld did the first...rather easily...but hasn't done well with the second...

But while the implication is that the complaint is saying "Rumsfeld should step down because he's doing things wrong.", the actual complaint is "He's not doing enough things AT ALL."

The military doesn't want this "politically correct" war...They want to kick *** and get it over with...

But they can't do that...Somebody might call them "Nazis" and equate them to Pol Pot...Some others might accuse them of terrorizing children in the middle of the night...Some others might show pictures of a few bad apples and end up sterotyping all of the military as "baby killers" and "torturers"...

If that ever happens, then the military would have to take a step back because they might offend some mamby-pambys who like to take shots at the very same people that give them the freedom to say those things...

Wait....nevermind...:roll:
 
cnredd said:
If you read your own article, you'll see what some of the generals are having a problem with...

While some here like to get Rumsfeld out because they think he's some sort of diabolical Neocon, this General is saying that Rumsfeld and the crew should've acted in MORE of a "Neocon" way...

He's saying the same thing I've been saying all along...First rule of the Powell Doctrine..."First we're going to cut it off, then we're going to kill it."

Rumsfeld did the first...rather easily...but hasn't done well with the second...

But while the implication is that the complaint is saying "Rumsfeld should step down because he's doing things wrong.", the actual complaint is "He's not doing enough things AT ALL."

The military doesn't want this "politically correct" war...They want to kick *** and get it over with...

But they can't do that...Somebody might call them "Nazis" and equate them to Pol Pot...Some others might accuse them of terrorizing children in the middle of the night...Some others might show pictures of a few bad apples and end up sterotyping all of the military as "baby killers" and "torturers"...

If that ever happens, then the military would have to take a step back because they might offend some mamby-pambys who like to take shots at the very same people that give them the freedom to say those things...

Wait....nevermind...:roll:


And...your point is? I said in the very beginning that we needed to attack with full force and put an end to the threat. Seems like thats what the retired generals are saying too. The bottom line is, top military experts are saying that job is being poorly handled and they are pointing the finger directly at Rumsfeld because he isnt taking their advice.
 
aps said:
Rumsfeld has been attacked for years based upon his leadership and claims to have given his resignation to Bush on several occasions (which says a lot, by the way), which Bush has rejected.
I know that. It's because he has good character and is willing to put the well being of the administration ahead of his personal ego.
teacher, you can blame people asking for Rumsfeld to resign on the libs all you want.
Where the fuc*k do I do that? This is your debate style? Make shi*t up then hound someone with it?
Somehow I am guessing that these 5 generals aren't liberals.
Or maybe make points around conjecture?
They also have served in the military for decades to reach the rank that they have.
I served, have you? Don't lecture me.
I give their statments a lot of probative value, particularly when Rumsfeld has never served in the military.
And I served under quite a few idiots. Putting on a uniform does not take away stupidity. Rather, as the stupid gain rank, it amplifies it.
Also, they are said to speak for more than just themselves.
That's what THEY say.
But keep telling yourself how well Rumsfeld is doing.
Thank you, I will. How about that Rummy? What a swell job he is doing.
Hey, this lib wants him to stay in office. The longer he is there, the more it hurts both Bush and the republicans, and that, to me, is a good thing. :cool:
That's your opinion and your entitled to it. I could say the same thing about many Democrates is office.
The fact that you are this angry over what retired generals are saying is what is making me goo all over myself. And the amount of anger you exude in your post shows me how desperate you are.
Oh yea, terribly angry.
This is your debate style? Make shi*t up then hound someone with it?
article in the Washington Post where McClellan is saying that Bush things Rummy is doing a "very fine job." Yeah, this coming from a man who intentionally avoided serving in Vietnam.
I'm so friggin tired of this Vietnam shi*t. Clinton did it too. You libs can either say it was a decision of conscious for all, or guys being ******s. It can't be a decision of conscious for Clinton and W. being a *****. Make up your minds and be consistant. If there was a draft and I was rich and could pull strings to keep my son out of the war, I'd do it in a heartbeat if he didn't want to go.
 
jallman said:
And...your point is? I said in the very beginning that we needed to attack with full force and put an end to the threat.

Who are they going to attack? The problem is not lack of troops. The problem is we don't know who these guys are and where they are hiding. That the Generals say this just tells me they want a book deal and some attention. We have plenty of people to mop up if we just know where to strike.
 
aps said:
I am curious what GySgt thinks of Rumseld.

It's because of my haircut right? OK...here goes...


To be an effective critic, you must also know when to praise. We also must recognize that the military has a plethora of Active and retired Generals. How many are complaining? Combat deaths indicate that we are serious about destroying the enemy, that we are willing to do whatever it takes. I would be far more distrustful of a campaign without casualties.

Afghanistan was an important milestone in getting over the no-ground-forces nonsense of the Clinton years--it proved irrefutably that there are times when our troops must go in and do the job themselves. The "stand-off-and-bomb-them" or "casualty free wars" menatily of the 90's is history. War is, ultimately, a contest of wills. And our war with terrorism is a knife-fight to the bone. When Americans die, the sole correct response is to hit back even harder. Our enemy is intent on killing us and surviving, just as we are intent on destroying him. But too many of our Army Generals and a few Marine Generals had gotten used to fighting "safe" wars (A product of the misleading Gulf War). They are the dinosaurs without vision (lost without another superpower to focus on) and have specific complaints about Iraq that are justified, but they are retiring and clearing space for the future leaders we need. These type of individuals lack the vision to see the very grey world of Islamic fundamentalism. They are focused on the symptoms (terrorism and terrorists) rather than the disease - one does not mend a compound fracture by placing a bandaid over the protrusion.

However, people should recognize that there has been an ongoing feud between Rummy and Army leaders, specifically, since before the invasion of Iraq. Rumsfeld's insistence that a modest strike force can do the job that big Army was used to doing, does not meet the needs of all those Army Commanders who are clinging to the Cold War era. Iraq and Afghanistan proved him right and the dinosaurs wrong. His mistakes were made after the invasions, but Generals are proud. They don't like being told that their tactics, honed over decades, are a thing of the past.

In an age when ground-force missions will only continue to increase, and after suffering chronic troop shortages in Iraq, Rumsfeld recommends cutting Army and Marine combat units. Faced with the urgent need to replenish Marine and Army equipment destroyed or worn out in Iraq, we're buying high-tech toys that have no missions (Cold War preparations). The Marine Commandant has threatened to retire (about four weeks ago) unless Marine forces remain at current strength.

He is frequently dismissive of senior military officers' advice, which was evident with the amount of troop withdraw immediately after Baghdad fell - hence the lack of Army troops on the ground and the return of Marines that fall of 2003. His dismissives (with President Bush's approval) were also unfortunately true for first Fallujah and the price of his mistake was second Fallujah (a Vietnam political era mistake creeping up to the present). In Afghanistan, Bin Ladden escaped to the North and into the mountains. He was not expected to go that route, because it would mean that he would be cornered. It was a tactical error on Osama's part and a tactical error on ours not to have the troop strength to cover that improbable escape.

Rumsfeld has the vision that is required to meet the demands needed to face our current and future threat, however, he lacks the humility and the ability to know when to listen to his field commanders. For the most part, the Commanders are running the military show, but when times become crucial, his arrogance trumps all wisdom. There were angering mistakes in Iraq, none of which were at the ground level and most I will not type here, but Iraq as a whole was not the mistake.

My biggest problem with Rumsfeld is not of his own design. He is focused on military action. He does not tend to swim in the politics of this confusion. This is more of our President's mistakes. It infuriates me to no end that I have not heard the correct words and terminologies come out of President Bush's mouth on the international stage. We have made bold moves in the world and not just in Afghanistan and Iraq. However, the words to explain these moves have been simple and obtuse....

- We are not targeting Islam, just the Radical Islamists – we better say so and it needs to be often.

- When we make inevitable and justifiable tactical military strikes on enemy targets we must apologize for the collateral damage.

- We have to support the moderate voices (indirectly). We are currently doing this in many locations, but not nearly enough.

- We (because no one else will) must resolve Israeli/Palestinian and Indian/Pakistani disputes. This should be a stage focus and the acts of Saddam and Iranian influences to continue the conflict through poor Palestininans should be thrown into the spotlight.

- We should reestablish funding for cultural outreach programs cut following end of "Cold War." This was a good program to win hearts and minds. Afer the Cold War ended and there was no more super power to oppose us, we were lost and without direction. We have that direction again and we need to recognize this.

- We need to establish Support Programs that are dedicated to providing educational reform in threatened countries. Governments with strong governmental oversight over the education of their young must be rewarded; likewise those that do not provide such oversight must be punished.

Aside from the occassional frustrating hint, we aren't hearing any of this from the White House and with Rumsfeld's sights solely focused on military action, we are projecting a negative tone to the "War on Terror." There is no substitute for killing the enemy. However, we face an enemy that does not wear a uniform, does not fight for a country, does not murder for survival, does not care about human decency (at least not in our terms). He fights for a Radical and perverted ideal and he fights for his "god." We have to make an international center stage of focusing our efforts on the long term enemy - the creation of more Radical Islamists. By doing the above and at least engaging heavily in the IO (Information Operation) war, we will garner worldwide support for this effort from all those snooty visionless countries that call themselves our "allies" who are doing the bare minimum as we take the beating from it.

The face of the War on Terror is Rumsfeld, which is set on war. This is wrong and it has hurt our efforts. The President of the free world needs to be that face and he needs to do it with the boldness that our military actions have displayed.
 
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Teacher, Rumsfeld doesn't answer reporter's questions. He asks himself a question and answers it. He doesn't fool me. Only an idiot would disband the Iraqi army and take out all infrastructure. What was left? A collosal void. And what do we know about terrorists? They flock to a void. To say that that was unforseeable is a bold-faced lie. It is just like saying that 9-11 was unforseeable. I had wondered if 9-11 type attacks could happen in 2000.

You can't win a war on terror just like you can't win a war against organized crime. You simply can't police everyone every second of the day. You can't win hearts and minds at gun point.
 
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teacher said:
Who are they going to attack? The problem is not lack of troops. The problem is we don't know who these guys are and where they are hiding. That the Generals say this just tells me they want a book deal and some attention. We have plenty of people to mop up if we just know where to strike.

Oh yeah, cuz all five or six generals are going after the same book deal and a military officer really concerns himself with things like public adoration :roll:
 
teacher said:
Where the fuc*k do I do that? This is your debate style? Make shi*t up then hound someone with it?

I got that impression from this:

Rummy is the man. Ever watch his press conferences? He doesn't waffle. He answers all comers straight up. He beats down stupid reporters with facts and logic. Guy is a friggin genius. All you libs do is complain about how he didn't plan everything exactly right. All battle plans go awry after the first shot is fired. One of the oldest adages in combat. Like there was a script the enemy is supposed to follow. Seems to me you are blaming him for not being able to see perfectly into the future.

The implication is that the only people asking Rummy to resign are the liberals. Hence, my conclusion above.


And I served under quite a few idiots. Putting on a uniform does not take away stupidity. Rather, as the stupid gain rank, it amplifies it.

I haven’t gotten the impression that officers who reach the level of “general” are idiots, but that’s me.


I'm so friggin tired of this Vietnam shi*t. Clinton did it too. You libs can either say it was a decision of conscious for all, or guys being ******s. It can't be a decision of conscious for Clinton and W. being a *****. Make up your minds and be consistant. If there was a draft and I was rich and could pull strings to keep my son out of the war, I'd do it in a heartbeat if he didn't want to go.

Clinton didn’t send us into a war the way Bush has. So Clinton’s lack of experience of serving in a war is insignificant.
 
GySgt said:
OK...here goes...

Thanks for taking the time to post that GySgt. It's good to get the point of view from someone who has specific education in the topic and see them post a well thought out un-biased position.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Teacher, Rumsfeld doesn't answer reporter's questions. He asks himself a question and answers it. He doesn't fool me. Only an idiot would disband the Iraqi army and take out all infrastructure. What was left? A collosal void. And what do we know about terrorists? They flock to a void. To say that that was unforseeable is a bold-faced lie. It is just like saying that 9-11 was unforseeable. I had wondered if 9-11 type attacks could happen in 2000.

You can't win a war on terror just like you can't win a war against organized crime. You simply can't police everyone every second of the day. You can't win hearts and minds at gun point.

Disbanding the Iraqi military was not a mistake and most of the infrastructure was a mess anyway. Your focused on the wrong things.

To begin with, there was no Iraqi army to keep on hand for peacekeeping. The poorly paid and horribly treated Shia conscripts all had deserted. Loyal Sunnis in the Republican Guard had left to prepare for guerrilla war against the Americans. We couldn't trust Saddam's officer corps, and if we had tried to turn peacekeeping over to them, we'd have incurred the enmity of the Shia and the Kurds, together 80 percent of Iraq's population. We had no choice but to rebuild the military and police from scratch.

The failure to detect Saddam's plan for protracted guerrilla war was largely responsible for Rumsfeld's big failure, the failure to have more peacekeeping troops. Former Army chief of staff General Shinseki and others had warned that roughly twice as many as we had on hand were required, even if a guerrilla war hadn't been in the offing.

However, to be fair, the U.S. Army is too small to have provided many more troops for occupation - we can thank the Clinton administration for that. Kuwait's port facilities were also inadequate to sustain this activity. But we could and should have sent three or four more brigades into the country shortly after Saddam fell. (We waited in Baghdad for three weeks, before the first Army unit showed up to take our place as an occupying force). This is why four months later, the same Marine units that fought the war returned to Iraq.

With the threats of the day and with our roles, responsibilities, and activities all over the world, the American military is too small. Rumsfeld did not cut the force throughout the 90's. However, he is showing approval of cutting down our current force that was built up since Afghanistan and Iraq. He threatens to make the mistakes of President Clinton.
 
teacher said:
I served, have you? Don't lecture me.

Rumsfeld didn't serve, yet you would let him lecture you? There is a word for that. Can you guess what it is?

teacher said:
I'm so friggin tired of this Vietnam shi*t. Clinton did it too. You libs can either say it was a decision of conscious for all, or guys being ******s. It can't be a decision of conscious for Clinton and W. being a *****. Make up your minds and be consistant. If there was a draft and I was rich and could pull strings to keep my son out of the war, I'd do it in a heartbeat if he didn't want to go.

Clinton didn't invade Iraq. He isn't the President. This is irrelevant. I will make one point though. Clinton was smart enough to avoid Vietnam. Bush was priveledged enough. See the difference? If you want to talk about consistency, then you should have supported Kerry who actually served in Nam.
 
Gibberish said:
Thanks for taking the time to post that GySgt. It's good to get the point of view from someone who has specific education in the topic and see them post a well thought out un-biased position.

Thanks. I'm not the robotic stereotype people tend to think I am. Too often they are just focused on what isn't the real problems. Mistakes are mistakes no matter what Party is responsible for them, but we have to look at it all and weigh our results.
 
jallman said:
Oh yeah, cuz all five or six generals are going after the same book deal and a military officer really concerns himself with things like public adoration :roll:

Just an opinion bro. Not at all beyond the realm of posibility. Seen all the ex-Generals with books and on the talking heads shows lately?
 

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