• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

baseball hall of "very good"

Bucky

Bucky

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Messages
28,595
Reaction score
6,367
Location
Washington
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
OMG. Is baseball really going to put in Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez in the HOF in before Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pudge Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa?

Bagwell was a really good first basemen. Hardly a Hall of Famer. Edgar Martinez didn't even play the infield, he was a DH.

It really makes me wonder. Bagwell, Martinez, Chipper Jones - These players used PEDS and Andro, illegal substances yet do not receive any backlash.
 
Don't let the Hall of Fame voters bias against Clemens, Bonds, and the like distract you from the fact that Bagwell and Edgar absolutely deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Bonds and Clemens were better sure, but compared to the standards of the people already in the Hall, Edgar and Bagwell absolutely measure up.
 
Of the first timers Manny Ramirez and Pudge Rodriguez are the top of the class. Both were great players but the HOF is supposed to be rarefied air. Of the players on the ballot Clemens and Bonds should be no brainers but both have the taint of PED's. Personally, I'm not all that opposed to juicers in the HOF. MLB looked the other way regarding that stuff for quite a while after the strike. The numbers were good for business and there were LOTS of players who indulged. Furthermore, if you're Barry Bonds and you're seeing maybe 3 pitches in the strike zone per game but when you do see one you absolutely wreck it.....that's more than the goop working.
 
I'm sure Bucky knows why Bonds, Clemens and me no speak English Sosa are not in the HoF. And I follow baseball pretty closely but I've never, ever heard even a peep about Chipper Jones using PED's. And I'm a Mets fan and have every reason to HATE Mr. Jones.

But for some reason he loves to troll.
 
Bucky said:
OMG. Is baseball really going to put in Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez in the HOF in before Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pudge Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa?

Bagwell was a really good first basemen. Hardly a Hall of Famer. Edgar Martinez didn't even play the infield, he was a DH.

It really makes me wonder. Bagwell, Martinez, Chipper Jones - These players used PEDS and Andro, illegal substances yet do not receive any backlash.
Click to expand...

From watching the MLB Network, the conscientious is those three didn't, but were around some who did. We all know Bonds, Clemens, Sosa did use PEDs. Those three would never get my vote because of that. I'm not sure Bagwell's .297 career average, 449 home runs, 2,314 hits is enough. Very borderline. Chipper Jones was a bit better, .303, 458 home runs and 2,726 career hits.

I grew up in an era 1950's and early 60's where a plus .300 average, 500 home runs and 3,000 hits was sort of the markers for the HOF. One didn't need all three, but needed at least one or really, really had an impact on the game. Edgar Martinez's stats are below Bagwell's and Jone's. He had 2,247 hits, 309 home runs, although his life time batting average was .312.

I would put in Tim Raines before those three, he had bigger impact on the game and in my opinion a lot better all around player. Outside of Ricky Henderson, Raines 808 stolen bases were tops for his era, a .294 BA and 2,605 hits. Henderson did outshine Raines, 1,406 stolen bases, 297 home runs to 170, a BA of .279, lower than Raines and 3,055 hits. Henderson's hit and stolen base totals make his entry a no brainier.

But it isn't going to bother me one way or the other if Raines makes it or not. Bagwell? Pretty much the same, but the way I view it Jones and Raines should be ahead of him. Of course I am bias toward Chipper, the Braves are my home town team. But if Chipper doesn't make, again no big deal. But someday I would like to see him make it.

As for Bonds, Clemons, Sosa, I hope they never get in. Pete Rose should be granted entry way before any of them. My opinion anyway.
 
Last edited:
SenorXm/Sirius said:
I'm sure Bucky knows why Bonds, Clemens and me no speak English Sosa are not in the HoF. And I follow baseball pretty closely but I've never, ever heard even a peep about Chipper Jones using PED's. And I'm a Mets fan and have every reason to HATE Mr. Jones.

But for some reason he loves to troll.
Click to expand...

Jeff Bagwell and Mike Piazza used Andro.....

Roger Clemens was not proven guilty of using steroids in court but I guess it's okay to disregard that fact.
 
Perotista said:
From watching the MLB Network, the conscientious is those three didn't, but were around some who did. We all know Bonds, Clemens, Sosa did use PEDs. Those three would never get my vote because of that. I'm not sure Bagwell's .297 career average, 449 home runs, 2,314 hits is enough. Very borderline. Chipper Jones was a bit better, .303, 458 home runs and 2,726 career hits.

I grew up in an era 1950's and early 60's where a plus .300 average, 500 home runs and 3,000 hits was sort of the markers for the HOF. One didn't need all three, but needed at least one or really, really had an impact on the game. Edgar Martinez's stats are below Bagwell's and Jone's. He had 2,247 hits, 309 home runs, although his life time batting average was .312.

I would put in Tim Raines before those three, he had bigger impact on the game and in my opinion a lot better all around player. Outside of Ricky Henderson, Raines 808 stolen bases were tops for his era, a .294 BA and 2,605 hits. Henderson did outshine Raines, 1,406 stolen bases, 297 home runs to 170, a BA of .279, lower than Raines and 3,055 hits. Henderson's hit and stolen base totals make his entry a no brainier.

But it isn't going to bother me one way or the other if Raines makes it or not. Bagwell? Pretty much the same, but the way I view it Jones and Raines should be ahead of him. Of course I am bias toward Chipper, the Braves are my home town team. But if Chipper doesn't make, again no big deal. But someday I would like to see him make it.

As for Bonds, Clemons, Sosa, I hope they never get in. Pete Rose should be granted entry way before any of them. My opinion anyway.
Click to expand...

No one has no idea who was 100% clean and who was dirty.
 
Bucky said:
No one has no idea who was 100% clean and who was dirty.
Click to expand...

We know some were dirty. We have their names. The rest were or weren't. Perhaps no one can say for absolutely 100% that the rest were pure or so and so was pure, but then again, we have a pretty good idea. Ban those who are known to have used PEDs, that will do for a start.
 
Perotista said:
We know some were dirty. We have their names. The rest were or weren't. Perhaps no one can say for absolutely 100% that the rest were pure or so and so was pure, but then again, we have a pretty good idea. Ban those who are known to have used PEDs, that will do for a start.
Click to expand...

So if Chipper Jones and Bagwell and in the Hall of Fame and we find out they were big time users, do they get removed from the Hall?
 
Besides the fact that Chipper Jones played in the steroid era I'm still waiting for ANY evidence Jones name was linked to PED's?

If we're going to indict by association then, Jeter. No way he deserves the HoF.
 
Bucky said:
So if Chipper Jones and Bagwell and in the Hall of Fame and we find out they were big time users, do they get removed from the Hall?
Click to expand...

As of today we don't know if they were users or not. As I stated the conscientious is no. A lot of those on the MLB Network think only the fact that Bagwell played in the PED era, that is the only reason he wasn't yet elected. Perhaps they're right, maybe not. As I stated, I think he is very borderline. I believe Bagwell didn't use PED's, but beliefs are an individual thing. Perhaps you think he did?

I would take Raines and Jones over Bagwell for the HOF. The fact we're having this conversation shows how much damage those who utilized PEDs did to the game. Stats will never be the same, records never the same. A lot of the fun about baseball was the ability to compare stats between eras. Was Ted Williams better than Bobby Bonds? How do so and so compare with the Babe? Thanks to the PED era, their records will always be suspected and an whole era of stats made meaningless.

Questions abound, would Bonds have hit 500 homers without PED's? Probably, but one will never know.
 
Perotista said:
As of today we don't know if they were users or not. As I stated the conscientious is no. A lot of those on the MLB Network think only the fact that Bagwell played in the PED era, that is the only reason he wasn't yet elected. Perhaps they're right, maybe not. As I stated, I think he is very borderline. I believe Bagwell didn't use PED's, but beliefs are an individual thing. Perhaps you think he did?

I would take Raines and Jones over Bagwell for the HOF. The fact we're having this conversation shows how much damage those who utilized PEDs did to the game. Stats will never be the same, records never the same. A lot of the fun about baseball was the ability to compare stats between eras. Was Ted Williams better than Bobby Bonds? How do so and so compare with the Babe? Thanks to the PED era, their records will always be suspected and an whole era of stats made meaningless.

Questions abound, would Bonds have hit 500 homers without PED's? Probably, but one will never know.
Click to expand...

Bagwell used Andro. That is a fact.
 
Bucky said:
Bagwell used Andro. That is a fact.
Click to expand...

Others don't think so. The MLB Network and writers who vote think he didn't, but he has been associated with those who did. No way to prove one way or the other, only how one believes.
 
Bucky said:
OMG. Is baseball really going to put in Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez in the HOF in before Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pudge Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa?

Bagwell was a really good first basemen. Hardly a Hall of Famer. Edgar Martinez didn't even play the infield, he was a DH.

It really makes me wonder. Bagwell, Martinez, Chipper Jones - These players used PEDS and Andro, illegal substances yet do not receive any backlash.
Click to expand...

Martinez used roids? Surely you have evidence of that?

Oh wait. See my signature.
 
Anagram said:
Don't let the Hall of Fame voters bias against Clemens, Bonds, and the like distract you from the fact that Bagwell and Edgar absolutely deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Bonds and Clemens were better sure, but compared to the standards of the people already in the Hall, Edgar and Bagwell absolutely measure up.
Click to expand...

Bucky hates Edgar because he owned the Skankees.
 
Top Cat said:
Bucky hates Edgar because he owned the Skankees.
Click to expand...

His offensive numbers don't measure up to HOF'ers and he didn't play any defense at all.

I'm being objective.
 
Bucky said:
His offensive numbers don't measure up to HOF'ers and he didn't play any defense at all.
.
Click to expand...

And you would be wrong. Again.

I'm being objective.
Click to expand...

No you're being I'll-informed as usual. You also accused Edgar of roiding. That's a spineless thing to do with no proof.
 
Top Cat said:
And you would be wrong. Again.

No you're being I'll-informed as usual. You also accused Edgar of roiding. That's a spineless thing to do with no proof.
Click to expand...

If you look at this stats, they don't measure up with position players. If you measure him merely against DH, they do, however the DH isn't a legitimate position.
 
Bucky said:
His offensive numbers don't measure up to HOF'ers and he didn't play any defense at all.

I'm being objective.
Click to expand...

Sure they do. Of the hitters inducted in the last ten years, only Griffey, Thomas, and Henderson had more career WAR than Edgar. And his WRC+ was only behind Thomas. He doesn't have the hits or home runs that a lot of hall of famers have, but those aren't the only places people have value. He's in the top 20 in career on base percentage and in the top 30 in career OPS, and he still hit over 300 home runs. He's an absolutely deserving hall of famer.
 
baseball hall of "very good"

Is Bucky 12 years old, or is he actually an adult who knows this little about sports?
 
Anagram said:
Sure they do. Of the hitters inducted in the last ten years, only Griffey, Thomas, and Henderson had more career WAR than Edgar. And his WRC+ was only behind Thomas. He doesn't have the hits or home runs that a lot of hall of famers have, but those aren't the only places people have value. He's in the top 20 in career on base percentage and in the top 30 in career OPS, and he still hit over 300 home runs. He's an absolutely deserving hall of famer.
Click to expand...

I'm a baseball purist. I'm gonna discriminate against him due to his lack of position. FYI I wouldn't put David Ortiz in either.
 
Bucky said:
I'm a baseball purist. I'm gonna discriminate against him due to his lack of position. FYI I wouldn't put David Ortiz in either.
Click to expand...

And I don't see the point in penalizing him for doing what was best for his team. He didn't drag his team down with bad defense like a lot of those sluggers did who are safely in the hall of fame. And he put up more than enough value with the bat to compensate for not playing in the field.
 
Bucky said:
If you look at this stats, they don't measure up with position players. If you measure him merely against DH, they do, however the DH isn't a legitimate position.
Click to expand...

MLB begs to differ. Ever heard of the Edgar Martinez Award?

Ken Griffey Jr.: “He carried the team for a period of time. He was one of the most feared hitters in the game for 10-plus years.”

Paul Molitor: “He [Edgar] was one of the most feared right-handed hitters for a long time in this league. The amount of respect he has from peers speaks to the value of the offensive player he was.”

Pedro Martinez: “Believe it or not, the guy that I hated facing the most wasn’t a guy that really did well against me. It was actually a guy that didn’t do that well … The toughest guy I faced I think — with all due respect to all the players in the league — was Edgar Martinez.”

Randy Johnson: “Edgar Martinez is, hands down, the best hitter that I’ve ever seen. I’m glad I didn’t have to face him too much”

Mariano Rivera: “The toughest – and thank God he retired – Edgar Martinez. Oh my God. I think every pitcher will say that, because this man was tough.”
Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/amp/mlb.nbcs...nez-was-feared/amp/?client=ms-android-verizon
 
Bucky said:
OMG. Is baseball really going to put in Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez in the HOF in before Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Pudge Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa?
Click to expand...
I'll bite....
Jeff Bagwell...I wouldn't vote for him. He was very good, but not HOF good.
Tim Raines...absolutely first round HOF'er. He and Henderson were the epitome of 80's baseball. Big defense. Big speed. Average power.
Edgar Martinez...I would vote for him because he was the first true DH. I know there were others, but his bat kept him in the league for a long, long time. He was a trendsetter.

Guys like Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire...these were the poster boys for the Steroid Era.

Barry Bonds can go eat a bag of dicks. He was a HORRIBLE ambassador of the game, and was Public Enemy #1 outside of San Francisco. Not to mention the most obvious case against steroids.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom