Dolphin Inongnito Implosion

Aunt Spiker said:

Ah - I see here.

Incognito is the guy's name.

Took me a few days to figure this out. You guys suddenly don't seem quite as insane as you did a little bit ago.

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..........

calamity said:

You didn't read Whitlock's piece. Did you?


There's a whole world open to discussion there. IMO, there's probably a lot more to it than just scratching the surface reveals too. My OP says as much.

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It has nothing to do with color. It is about some jerky guys overly macho persona in the locker room. Just because in this case it happens to be a white guy bullying a black doesn't mean it has ANYTHING to do with race, as there are plenty of other black players on the team who are NOT bullied and harassed.

It has to do with a certain personality type being more vulnerable to bullying. You are trying to make this into an issue of color when it isn't.

ChrisL said:

It has nothing to do with color. It is about some jerky guys overly macho persona in the locker room. Just because in this case it happens to be a white guy bullying a black doesn't mean it has ANYTHING to do with race, as there are plenty of other black players on the team who are NOT bullied and harassed.

It has to do with a certain personality type being more vulnerable to bullying. You are trying to make this into an issue of color when it isn't.

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My op was aimed at making a specific point, which was then reinforced by the Whitlock article I cited.

calamity said:

...how sad is it when a White nutcase gets to be considered an honorary N'ger while an actual Black guy gets called "Halfbreed" because he's educated and doesn't act like a goon? Reminds me a bit of how Clarence and Condi are treated simply because they don't toe the color-line.

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Whitlock, however, took it further, tying this strange definition of "blackness" to prison and hip hop culture. He goes on to say that the aggressive Malcom X is more respected in the Aftrican-American Community than is MLK.

I do not think the Richie Incognito thing is unique. The locker room supports him 100% while they reject the victim. This tells me that it's not an isolated case of "some jerky guy's overly macho persona in the locker room."

calamity said:

My op was aimed at making a specific point, which was then reinforced by the Whitlock article I cited.





Whitlock, however, took it further, tying this strange definition of "blackness" to prison and hip hop culture.

I do not think the Richie Incognito thing is unique. The locker room supports him 100% while they reject the victim. This tells me that it's not an isolated case of "some jerky guy's overly macho persona in the locker room."

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Are you serious? You must be paranoid. There are PLENTY OF BLACK GUYS on the team who are NOT picked on. It has to do with his personality, NOT the color of his skin.

Apparently, Incognito has also had complaints from WHITE men and women too. He is a bully who picks on those he sees as weaker than himself.

ChrisL said:

Are you serious? You must be paranoid. There are PLENTY OF BLACK GUYS on the team who are NOT picked on. It has to do with his personality, NOT the color of his skin.

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You're missing my point--Martin is a white-acting black guy. Cognito acts Black. Thus, Richie is more accepted by the rest of the team than the Oreo. THe point of the thread is more or less to discuss this issue.

calamity said:

You're missing my point--Martin is a white-acting black guy. Cognito acts Black. Thus, Richie is more accepted by the rest of the team than the Oreo.

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Oh, so now you are assigning certain behavior attributes to different "colored" people. Ridiculous. There are white jerks and black jerks.

ChrisL said:

Apparently, Incognito has also had complaints from WHITE men and women too. He is a bully who picks on those he sees as weaker than himself.

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Dolphins' players stand behind Incognito, not Martin | National Football Post

“I think that what’s perceived is that Richie is this psychopath, racist maniac,” offensive tackle Tyson Clabo said. “The reality is that Richie was a pretty good teammate, and that Richie and Jonathan Martin were friends.”

Dolphins quarterback Ryan Tannehill was unaware of the situation.

“If I had any idea that it was an issue or he was struggling, of course I would have constantly checked on him to see if he was OK,” Tannehill said of Martin. “But you can’t help a situation that you didn’t even know existed. No one on this team knew it existed.

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Clearly there is more to this than meets the eye.

calamity said:

Dolphins' players stand behind Incognito, not Martin | National Football Post



Clearly there is more to this than meets the eye.

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No, you are trying to put a racist angle on this where none exists. This stuff is par for the course for you and not surprising.

ChrisL said:

Oh, so now you are assigning certain behavior attributes to different "colored" people. Ridiculous. There are white jerks and black jerks.

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Are you saying that there is no hip hop gangsta culture undermining the Black Youth, promoting misogyny and dropping out of school? You honestly believe that the urbanized culture does not put pressure on African-Americans who act white, that Clarence Thomas isn't considered an Uncle Tom by the greater Black community while Al Sharpton is revered...Really?

ChrisL said:

No, you are trying to put a racist angle on this where none exists. This stuff is par for the course for you and not surprising.

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I think racial issues are worth discussing in a political forum. Shocking. I know.

calamity said:

Are you saying that there is no hip hop gangsta culture undermining the Black Youth, promoting misogyny and dropping out of school? You honestly believe that the urbanized culture does not put pressure on African-Americans who act white, that Clarence Thomas isn't considered an Uncle Tom by the greater Black community while Al Sharpton is revered...Really?

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I'm saying this particular case is not about racism.

calamity said:

I think racial issues are worth discussing in a political forum. Shocking. I know.

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It's not shocking, just tiresome and silly when you try to put a racial spin on EVERYTHING.

ChrisL said:

I'm saying this particular case is not about racism.

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There is definitely a racial component when the white guy is considered to be more "Black" than the Black guy. No?

"Richie is honorary," a black former Dolphins player told Miami Herald reporter Armando Salguero. "I don't expect you to understand because you're not black. But being a black guy, being a brother is more than just about skin color. It's about how you carry yourself. How you play. Where you come from. What you've experienced. A lot of things."
Jonathan Martin walked into a twisted world led by Incognito - ESPN

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Obviously, Martin was not "Black".

ChrisL said:

It's not shocking, just tiresome and silly when you try to put a racial spin on EVERYTHING.

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It's a huge part of this story and it's ignorant to ignore it.

calamity said:

It's a huge part of this story and it's ignorant to ignore it.

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It is not. Apparently, the guy was kind of wimpy. The staff wanted Incognito to toughen him up, and he took it WAY too far. I see no evidence of racism here.

ChrisL said:

It is not. Apparently, the guy was kind of wimpy. The staff wanted Incognito to toughen him up, and he took it WAY too far. I see no evidence of racism here.

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He was not whimpy. The guy never missed a game and worked hard. He was however "aloof" and not a tattooed moron, who acts like he's 12. This, it seems, is why he was isolated, picked on and not considered "Black" enough. THe racial component, Cognito calling Martin a "Half-N-word" is actually on tape, and I provided you a quote above saying as much as well.

calamity said:

He was not whimpy. The guy never missed a game and worked hard. He was however "aloof" and not a tattooed moron, who acts like he's 12. This, it seems, is why he was isolated, picked on and not considered "Black" enough. THe racial component, Cognito calling Martin a "Half-N-word" is actually on tape, and I provided you a quote above saying as much as well.

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That is not proof of it being racial. Of course he's going to call him names, ones that he thinks would hurt the most. Do you think Tom Brady is "black" enough? Just thinking about some Pats players, I can think of MANY who weren't and aren't "black" acting and don't seem to have these problems in the locker room. Tedi Bruschi for one. An all around nice guy who no one ever complained about. This is an obvious lack of control over the players by the staff, or the staff are just thugs themselves. I don't hear of these complaints on other more elite teams with good coaching staff.

ChrisL said:

That is not proof of it being racial. Of course he's going to call him names, ones that he thinks would hurt the most. Do you think Tom Brady is "black" enough? Just thinking about some Pats players, I can think of MANY who weren't and aren't "black" acting and don't seem to have these problems in the locker room. Tedi Bruschi for one. An all around nice guy who no one ever complained about. This is an obvious lack of control over the players by the staff, or the staff are just thugs themselves. I don't hear of these complaints on other more elite teams with good coaching staff.

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Agreed. A Hip hop culture in the locker room and a Belichick coached team are probably mutually exclusive. I think the Miami locker room is more like Oakland and Tamp Bay: lunatics running the asylum.

Gipper said:

The cardinal rule was broken - and it wasn't by Incognito. The locker room is like Fight Club and Vegas - you don't talk about what happens in the locker room outside of the locker room.

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Yeah, this is exactly the kind of attitude that allows this kind of BS to continue. One reason you don't talk about Fight Club is because you know what you're doing will not survive the scrutiny.

Football is a tough and violent sport. Some of the methods to build camaraderie will look strange or brutal to outsiders. That doesn't change the fact that lines can be crossed, and some behaviors should not be tolerated.

What Incognito said is not even important, which is why his teammates are backing him, not Martin.

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What Incognito did -- harassing Martin into his 2nd year, including threatening Martin and his family -- is important. And his teammates are backing Incognito because they're circling the wagons. It's not to their credit.

Now maybe - MAYBE - if you were a 160 pound slot receiver getting punked by a lineman that was twice your size (literally), then you go other avenues. But damn, Martin's a big boy himself.

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And what is he supposed to do? Wail on Incognito with a cricket bat?

Incognito is a guy whose violent attitude does not stay on the field, and was in a leadership position to boot. Martin had no one to go to, and no way to get out of his situation.

Lesson to rookies: sack up.

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Martin was in his 2nd year, and Incognito was still harassing Martin.

This is not about "sacking up." It's about Incognito crossing a lot of lines, and Dolphin management failing to take care of their players.

Visbek said:

Yeah, this is exactly the kind of attitude that allows this kind of BS to continue. One reason you don't talk about Fight Club is because you know what you're doing will not survive the scrutiny.

Football is a tough and violent sport. Some of the methods to build camaraderie will look strange or brutal to outsiders. That doesn't change the fact that lines can be crossed, and some behaviors should not be tolerated.

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I'm on record for saying that some lines are crossed. However, there are procedures for this kind of thing, and it's universal "man code" (although from many responses on DP, I'm not sure how many here fit that bill) that problems are handled internally and individually. His first words should've been to Incognito himself, and then to other players, and then - if the problem doesn't subside - the coach. Hell, Philbin said himself that he was unaware of this happening.

He had avenues to address this problem, and none involved a microphone.

What Incognito did -- harassing Martin into his 2nd year, including threatening Martin and his family -- is important. And his teammates are backing Incognito because they're circling the wagons. It's not to their credit.

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Hardly. They're siding with Incognito because Martin was a snitch. Death threats are nasty, but we all knew that they were superfluous. You don't just wake up one morning and decide to kill someone's family - even someone as "not quite there" as Incognito.

And what is he supposed to do? Wail on Incognito with a cricket bat?

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No, confront him and say what's up - like men do.

Incognito is a guy whose violent attitude does not stay on the field, and was in a leadership position to boot. Martin had no one to go to, and no way to get out of his situation.

Martin was in his 2nd year, and Incognito was still harassing Martin.

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Ever wonder why Incognito was placed in a leadership position by his own peers? What, you think he threatened 50+ other men for it? As tough as Incognito is, if he went and tried to push a few dozen men around at once, he would've gotten an ass whipping.

This is not about "sacking up." It's about Incognito crossing a lot of lines, and Dolphin management failing to take care of their players.

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We don't even know the level that management was involved in this, other than the front office charging Incognito with "toughening up" Martin.

And yeah, it's about sacking up. It's funny how you think that Martin was innocent in all this, and played no part. He was a first round draft pick, and you invest in them. You can't just cut bait because they're ******s. That's for 5th round picks.

it's universal "man code" that problems are handled internally and individually.

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The "universal man code" (which is not even remotely "universal") is a crock of macho bull****, because it doesn't work. All it does is allow the problems to repeat and perpetuate.

His first words should've been to Incognito himself, and then to other players, and then - if the problem doesn't subside - the coach. Hell, Philbin said himself that he was unaware of this happening.

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Right. So Martin is supposed to tell the guy who is threatening him, has a propensity to violence off the field, to be a nice guy? He's supposed to go to the other players, who knew this was going on into his 2nd year? Should he have turned for help to the guy who said the team was going to pull a train on his sister? The one to turn to is a clueless coach? And if he had, what are the odds they would have told him to "handle it yourself" or to "toughen up"?

The responsibility here is not on Martin. It's on the team. They should have known these types of situations can develop, and given Martin a real path to fix it. If they wanted to keep it quiet, the team should have taken care of the problem, not expected Martin to suffer in silence.

Hardly. They're siding with Incognito because Martin was a snitch.

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My apologies. I didn't realize the NFL's code of conduct and/or "universal man code" was based on the behavior of 4th graders.

Ever wonder why Incognito was placed in a leadership position by his own peers?

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Yeah, I am definitely wondering about that, it does not speak well for the Dolphins. Nor does it lend credence to the idea that Martin could have gone to his teammates or to the coaches to get the situation resolved.

We don't even know the level that management was involved in this, other than the front office charging Incognito with "toughening up" Martin.

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I concur we don't know all the details. It sure looks like they were clueless, though.

And yeah, it's about sacking up. It's funny how you think that Martin was innocent in all this, and played no part.

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Ah yes, the good ol' "blame the victim" approach. That's the stuff.

Incognito is giving an interview with FOX today.....running currently. He says he isn't a racist and he is explaining how they are friends. He even gave up his own phone with all the text messages between him and Martin, over 1100 text messages between the two. Things just don't seem to pan out with the way the media has jumped on it with the bullying. As it is appearing from their messages with each other.

MMC said:

Incognito is giving an interview with FOX today.....running currently. He says he isn't a racist and he is explaining how they are friends. He even gave up his own phone with all the text messages between him and Martin, over 1100 text messages between the two. Things just don't seem to pan out with the way the media has jumped on it with the bullying. As it is appearing from their messages with each other.

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This damn story has more twists and turns than the mighty Mississippi.

Richie Incognito of Miami Dolphins -- Only a 'product of the environment' - ESPN

"When words are put in a context, I understand why a lot of eyebrows get raised," Incognito told Fox Sports during the interview, which aired Sunday. "But people don't know how Jon and I communicate to one another. For instance, a week before this went down, Jonathan Martin texted me on my phone, 'I will murder your whole F'ing family.'

"Now, do I think Jonathan Martin was going to murder my family? Not one bit. He texted me that. I didn't think he was going to kill my family. I knew that was coming from a brother. I knew it was coming from a friend. I knew it was coming from a teammate."

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I'm starting to think that Martin wanted out of football and this was his scheme to quit and still get paid.

calamity said:

I think their coach sucks and will be out of a job. Martin handled his situation wrong too. And, Incognito is an idiot who crossed a line with his voicemails and text messages, even though he was an honorary N-Word.

And, how sad is it when a White nutcase gets to be considered an honorary N'ger while an actual Black guy gets called "Halfbreed" because he's educated and doesn't act like a goon? Reminds me a bit of how Clarence and Condi are treated simply because they don't toe the color-line.

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The fact you are racializing this only proves that you "don't get it."