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Mother hears son's heart beat inside 4-year-old girl's chest

the_recruit said:
Stop being obtuse. I answered the question. You asked what fact. I specified.
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What specific physical fact do you dispute?

You did not answer.
 
Paleocon said:
There is a difference between doing something and not doing something.
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So as long as you don't have a hand in it evil is fine? Nice cop-out. :roll:
 
Paleocon said:
That is not what I said.

Not doing evil is only the beginning of virtue
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No, you avoided the question. You will let multiple innocent children die for the benefit of the one. That is evil.
Just admit it. I will. Even though it is evil I would never harm the one to save the many. I am not afraid, why are you?
 
the_recruit said:
Oh jesus ****ing christ. Why do I bother. :lamo


Have a nice day.
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Because it can be entertaining up to a point... once you reach that point however, it becomes such a waste of time. I am nearing my point.
 
Paleocon said:
You people never cease to amaze me. I make an offhand quip to Brewer (stating only the fact that people can't be preserved on ventilators indefinitely), and it set you off on your anti-God rant. For the record, I'm not going to discuss my position on capital punishment in this thread because it's completely besides the point. If you want me to discuss capital punishment, start a thread about it.
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You are the one who brought God into the conversation, not me,
 
Bodhisattva said:
No, you avoided the question. You will let multiple innocent children die for the benefit of the one. That is evil.
Just admit it. I will. Even though it is evil I would never harm the one to save the many. I am not afraid, why are you?
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Just to be clear, before we proceed, are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you legitimately not understand?

year2late said:
You are the one who brought God into the conversation, not me,
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God exists and people believe in him. Get over it.
 
Paleocon said:
God exists and people believe in him. Get over it.
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People interpret the Bible and practice their faith in a variety of ways. I respect that. Do you respect that folks can be faithful to God and not interpret the Bible in the same way as you do? I believe in God, by the way.

Again, after over three decades of critical care nursing....I have never met a member of the clergy that have advised against removal of life support or against organ donation. I am curious - does your clergy advise against organ donation or removal of life support?

The clergy I have encountered over the years seem to "get" and accept brain death as death.

I am curious, is your lack of acceptance of brain death an individual thing or does your church teach this?
 
year2late said:
People interpret the Bible and practice their faith in a variety of ways. I respect that. Do you respect that folks can be faithful to God and not interpret the Bible in the same way as you do? I believe in God, by the way.

Again, after over three decades of critical care nursing....I have never met a member of the clergy that have advised against removal of life support or against organ donation. I am curious - does your clergy advise against organ donation or removal of life support?

The clergy I have encountered over the years seem to "get" and accept brain death as death.

I am curious, is your lack of acceptance of brain death an individual thing or does your church teach this?
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This. Thread. Is. Not. About. My. Religion.
 
Paleocon said:
Just to be clear, before we proceed, are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you legitimately not understand?
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If it was deliberate it would not be obtuse... and yes, I understand the point that you are trying to make the problem is that it is not logical.
 
Bodhisattva said:
If it was deliberate it would not be obtuse... and yes, I understand the point that you are trying to make the problem is that it is not logical.
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If you think there's no difference between action and inaction, you really should substantiate that.
 
Paleocon said:
If you think there's no difference between action and inaction, you really should substantiate that.
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If God commanded you to sacrifice your own son, who happened to be verifiably neurologically dead, so that another's child may live, would you do so? In a way is that not what God Himself did? That would argue against condemning the parents. I could maybe understand your condemnation of the people doing the actual transplant, but is that any worse than Abraham being willing to personally kill his own son for no reason beyond being told to? It is indeed different from the evil acts committed against God's own son, yet Jesus begged for his killers' forgiveness.

You argue that there is a significant difference between inaction and action. That, somehow, actively taking a brain dead person's organs and ceasing their bodily functions is an act more evil than doing nothing and letting two people die. If God is your example, he purposefully sent his son to die. While God may not have held the knife that killed His son, He certainly planned for it to happen and took action to ensure that it did.
 
Paleocon said:
If you think there's no difference between action and inaction, you really should substantiate that.
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We are talking about the conclusion and all you are doing is side stepping your original assertion that letting innocent people die is evil. I won by your decision to not engage in honest debate.

Bye.
 
CycloneWanderer said:
If God commanded you to sacrifice your own son, who happened to be verifiably neurologically dead, so that another's child may live, would you do so? In a way is that not what God Himself did? That would argue against condemning the parents. I could maybe understand your condemnation of the people doing the actual transplant, but is that any worse than Abraham being willing to personally kill his own son for no reason beyond being told to? It is indeed different from the evil acts committed against God's own son, yet Jesus begged for his killers' forgiveness.
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God has a right to take human life, so if God commanded me, yes, I would, regardless of the medical condition of the child. But that's besides the point, as transplant doctors are not God and are not acting on direct instructions from God.

If you're arguing that the parents shouldn't be blamed because they don't know what they're doing, that is neither here nor there. At issue is the objective morality of the acts, not the blame to be assigned to the participants.

You argue that there is a significant difference between inaction and action. That, somehow, actively taking a brain dead person's organs and ceasing their bodily functions is an act more evil than doing nothing and letting two people die.
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Yes, killing someone is worse than letting someone die of natural causes.

If God is your example, he purposefully sent his son to die. While God may not have held the knife that killed His son, He certainly planned for it to happen and took action to ensure that it did.
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God didn't positively consent to the decision to kill Christ, so the analogy does not hold.
 
Organ donation doesn't lessen pain, but it can give a tremendous sense of continuity in that the loss has not been for nothing when you recognise it can give others a second chance. To even have the presence of mind in such a terrible situation to think about donating organs to begin with, makes the people who do it just extraordinary.

It's one of the greatest gifts you can give.
 
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