SUPPORT THE TROOPS!! (bring them home)

kal-el said:

9 out of 10 times it dosen't.Just because Hitler was overthrown with the use of violence, do we have to resort to violence every time? Violence just snowballs, causes even more, and when we get involved, we are morally obligated to carry on.

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Another misconception of the anti-war crusaders. We don't resort to violence everytime. How many wars have we averted by using our foriegn policy that war protesters cry about when it hurts other people? How many wars have we stood at the "ready" before we stood down? How many wars have been avoided simply because we have a military presence in foreign lands?

Saddam was a war that started in '91. He was allowed a "cease fire" of which he had rules to follow. He continually snubbed his nose at those rules and insulted the UN, tried to assassinate an American President, and continued to abuse his people. We finished the war in '03.

Saddam was a war that started in '91. He was allowed a "cease fire" of which he had rules to follow. He continually snubbed his nose at those rules and insulted the UN, tried to assassinate an American President, and continued to abuse his people. We finished the war in '03.

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I beleive thomas edison has entered the buiding.

GySgt said:

You're showing your ignorance again. This one person is a religous leader. He holds great power amongst Islamics in the Middle East. He speaks the sentiments of many in the Sunni triangle. And by the way, these weren't polls. These are real people that are in the area that you think you know so well. You have a choice. Believe the minority Sunni murderers or believe the majority that make up the murdered.

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Is he supported by our "puppet" government? He was probablyput up by Bush, who was forced to betray his own democratic principles so as not to lose face by placing a government that has the illusion of being democratic through an unending fiddlingof the electoral rules.

More ignorance. The goal is not to set up "western-style Democracy." The goal is to set up a democracy of their own choosing. It will not be a democracy that we would like to see, but any democracy is a step in the right direction.

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If it were indeed a true "democracy", it would be both anti-American and anti-Israeli. If 80% of the population feels this way, democracy cannot help but reveal this.

You are so mistaken in your thoughts. If you want to blame us for putting them into this chaos, then fine, but chaos was the only path that they have to take. We can not hold hands and wipe asses. This goes for everywhere we have ever gone and will ever go in the future. All we can do is offer the opportunity. They have to roll up their sleeves and take control of their own destiny. If they don't, they fail themselves. In the end it is a self help world.

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It might be the only path, but again,it's totally our fault! Bush wants to turn his illegal mistake into a sucsess andbe known as someone who has brought peace to the Mid East. This is another minipulation of the truth (are you suprised?) in order to cover up to the world that this invasion of a soverign country, carried out under false pretense, was indeed beneficial.

I know your morally decrepit views on helping someone else. You have declared them before. Since you have nothing to do with it, why do you care?

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I don't have a problem helping someone else. I guess you call it help when 2,000 soliders were killed by the Iraqi resistance,and probably over 10,000 severly wounded and handicapped for life, not to mention, more than 30,000 Iraq civilians murdered. But who cares about civilians, right? You wanna nuke the mid east.

more than 30,000 Iraq civilians murdered. But who cares about civilians, right? You wanna nuke the mid east.

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Exactly. Tell me how are they going to contribute to this world? What is the use of their land anyway? I see no apparent use.

SKILMATIC,

You see no use for there land. You don't see any reason for 30,000 of their citizens to be alive. Then, why the fuuck are you still supporting our presence there. Why should we do things that are of no use to us. Or do things for people we do not care about.

You remind me of the Scarecrow (and his desire) in the Wizard of Oz.

SKILMATIC said:

Exactly. Tell me how are they going to contribute to this world? What is the use of their land anyway? I see no apparent use.

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You're kidding me, right? Dude, you're totally hiypocritical here. Like Bill said, why the **** are you defending this war then?

Guys don't worry about it. I'll still be able to evacuate my friends family from there and besides we have all this new technology <Snort> I mean who needs oil anyways?

Besides, we're bombing the middle east. Thats where the terrorists hang out so we blow them all up, we destroy terroism. Its rather simple mthmatics. I mean whose ever heard of terrorists in Ireland, or the United States anyways? Certainly not me! Nuking the middle east= Peace.

Oh and as an added bonus, we will eliminate some of the worlds population so we won't have to worry about going hungry for a long long time.

kal-el said:

Is he supported by our "puppet" government? He was probablyput up by Bush, who was forced to betray his own democratic principles so as not to lose face by placing a government that has the illusion of being democratic through an unending fiddlingof the electoral rules.



If it were indeed a true "democracy", it would be both anti-American and anti-Israeli. If 80% of the population feels this way, democracy cannot help but reveal this.



It might be the only path, but again,it's totally our fault! Bush wants to turn his illegal mistake into a sucsess andbe known as someone who has brought peace to the Mid East. This is another minipulation of the truth (are you suprised?) in order to cover up to the world that this invasion of a soverign country, carried out under false pretense, was indeed beneficial.



I don't have a problem helping someone else. I guess you call it help when 2,000 soliders were killed by the Iraqi resistance,and probably over 10,000 severly wounded and handicapped for life, not to mention, more than 30,000 Iraq civilians murdered. But who cares about civilians, right? You wanna nuke the mid east.

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More lies.

"puppet" government?".....A puppet government would be what we want. What they have done is go to the polls, vote for representation, and now that representation is trying to put a constitution together where Kurds, Shi'ites, and Sunni are equal. They have done this on their own with the opportunity that we gave them.

"I guess you call it help when 2,000 soliders were killed by the Iraqi resistance".....There is no such thing as an Iraqi resistance. There are two seperate movements.

1) Foreign insurgency that is made up of Iranian, Saudi, and Syrian Sunni.

2) A fraction of Local Sunni that merely miss the old days of power over all.

In the last two months we have discovered that their is infighting amongst these two. The fire fights are becoming more routine. They are not as united as people may think. The insurgency have come to Iraq not for the interest of peace but to punish and avenge. These "martyrs" are murdering indiscriminantly Sunni and Shi'ites as a deterent to anyone that wishes to move away from "Allah", by wanting to live out from the shadow of the Arab's version of Islam. Ironic, how they themselves are the true blaphemers of Islam. They are also there to kill Americans, because they blame us for all of their oppression and for keeping Israel a protected nation. They need to blame us to explain away the constrictive and oppressive state that they have done to themselves through their barbaric interpretations and stone age . Killing us is not as easy as killing civilians, so that is why we see "50" Iraqi's dead at a pop. They are what we consider a "soft target." The Mullahs of this movement are telling the Middle East one thing - return to the Islam of old for that is what "Allah" wants. They wish to return to the days before Muhammed condemned human sacrifice and they are developing a blood cult. These are the one's that woulod drop airplanes from the sky. A successful Iraq is not constructive to the fundamental movement. They must destroy the new Iraqi government to prove to the rest of the region that "Allah" will not tolerate "back slidden" Muslims and they must show them that "the great satan" is defeatable. (This is why Bin Laden has to be killed.)

The local Sunni that are killing Shi'ites largely in the Sunni triangle are the results of temper tantrums and lashing out at an Iraqi progressive mentality being put together by Shi'ites, peaceful Sunni, and Kurds. They are made up largely of former Baathist loyalist and, of course, some that are angry at personal loss through American action (It would be unfair and misleading to omit such things). These local Sunni that make up this "resistance" are becoming more and more seperate as more Sunni are killed by the "insurgency."

The general and majority of the population wish to have a peaceful existence under one banner. This group is the ones that turned out to vote and this is the group that is struggling against stubborn Sunni opposition to finish their constitution. This is the group of people that protesters dismiss when they declare things like "They don't want us there" and "They don't want freedom." What people don't realize, is that when they say things like "we are creating more terrorists everytime we accidentally kill a civilian", we also gain more and more friends every time these animals murder 50 a pop.
There is the insurgency (fighters from Syria and Iran) and local Sunni resistance.

Do you just not know anything and write down anything you hear from anybody, or do you just plain lie?

FinnMacCool said:

Guys don't worry about it. I'll still be able to evacuate my friends family from there and besides we have all this new technology <Snort> I mean who needs oil anyways?

Besides, we're bombing the middle east. Thats where the terrorists hang out so we blow them all up, we destroy terroism. Its rather simple mthmatics. I mean whose ever heard of terrorists in Ireland, or the United States anyways? Certainly not me! Nuking the middle east= Peace.

Oh and as an added bonus, we will eliminate some of the worlds population so we won't have to worry about going hungry for a long long time.

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Averting attention from the successor of the Nazi by trying to shine the IRA in the same light is sad. Last I checked, America hasn't spent the last thirty years being attacked by the Irish.

GySgt, you know that wasn't the point of my post. I was merely trying to say that terroism exists not only in the middle east but throughout the world.

Besides you should know by my posts that I'm don't neccesarily consider the IRA terrorists (though I definatly think they were going the wrong way about things) because a lot of my family is very irish and have some history with them.

GySgt said:

"puppet" government?".....A puppet government would be what we want. What they have done is go to the polls, vote for representation, and now that representation is trying to put a constitution together where Kurds, Shi'ites, and Sunni are equal. They have done this on their own with the opportunity that we gave them.

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Yes, it's indeed good for us. But we don'tlive in Iraq. Do the people really want a government who submits to every wimb of the US?

There is no such thing as an Iraqi resistance.

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Sure there is, O wait, you say all the Iraqi's welcome us with open arms, right? The truth is they hate us like never before for the humiliations, imprisonment, torture, and the blatent crimes and destruction like in Falluja.

1) Foreign insurgency that is made up of Iranian, Saudi, and Syrian Sunni.

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Please, this insurgency is indeed composed of Iraqi's happy to be rid of Saddam, but at the same time, want the illegal occupation to end.

2) A fraction of Local Sunni that merely miss the old days of power over all.

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"More lies"

In the last two months we have discovered that their is infighting amongst these two. The fire fights are becoming more routine. They are not as united as people may think. The insurgency have come to Iraq not for the interest of peace but to punish and avenge. These "martyrs" are murdering indiscriminantly Sunni and Shi'ites as a deterent to anyone that wishes to move away from "Allah", by wanting to live out from the shadow of the Arab's version of Islam. Ironic, how they themselves are the true blaphemers of Islam. They are also there to kill Americans, because they blame us for all of their oppression and for keeping Israel a protected nation. They need to blame us to explain away the constrictive and oppressive state that they have done to themselves through their barbaric interpretations and stone age . Killing us is not as easy as killing civilians, so that is why we see "50" Iraqi's dead at a pop. They are what we consider a "soft target." The Mullahs of this movement are telling the Middle East one thing - return to the Islam of old for that is what "Allah" wants. They wish to return to the days before Muhammed condemned human sacrifice and they are developing a blood cult. These are the one's that woulod drop airplanes from the sky. A successful Iraq is not constructive to the fundamental movement. They must destroy the new Iraqi government to prove to the rest of the region that "Allah" will not tolerate "back slidden" Muslims and they must show them that "the great satan" is defeatable. (This is why Bin Laden has to be killed.)

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Agreed. Bin Laden should have been our number 1 target,not Saddam.

The local Sunni that are killing Shi'ites largely in the Sunni triangle are the results of temper tantrums and lashing out at an Iraqi progressive mentality being put together by Shi'ites, peaceful Sunni, and Kurds. They are made up largely of former Baathist loyalist and, of course, some that are angry at personal loss through American action (It would be unfair and misleading to omit such things). These local Sunni that make up this "resistance" are becoming more and more seperate as more Sunni are killed by the "insurgency."

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I can agree with that.

The general and majority of the population wish to have a peaceful existence under one banner. This group is the ones that turned out to vote and this is the group that is struggling against stubborn Sunni opposition to finish their constitution. This is the group of people that protesters dismiss when they declare things like "They don't want us there" and "They don't want freedom." What people don't realize, is that when they say things like "we are creating more terrorists everytime we accidentally kill a civilian", we also gain more and more friends every time these animals murder 50 a pop.
There is the insurgency (fighters from Syria and Iran) and local Sunni resistance.

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That is the exact reason why we need to seal the borders. As Joseph Biden said if you are fighting a counter-insurgency, you need to cutt off the borders, so no one leaves and enters.

Do you just not know anything and write down anything you hear from anybody, or do you just plain lie?

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Yea, I'd like to respond to this highly intellectual comment, but I'm going to bed.

FinnMacCool said:

GySgt, you know that wasn't the point of my post. I was merely trying to say that terroism exists not only in the middle east but throughout the world.

Besides you should know by my posts that I'm don't neccesarily consider the IRA terrorists (though I definatly think they were going the wrong way about things) because a lot of my family is very irish and have some history with them.

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Why bring it up at all? It is a non issue concerning the fundamental Islamic movement that is a threat to all.

kal-el said:

Yes, it's indeed good for us. But we don'tlive in Iraq. Do the people really want a government who submits to every wimb of the US?



Sure there is, O wait, you say all the Iraqi's welcome us with open arms, right? The truth is they hate us like never before for the humiliations, imprisonment, torture, and the blatent crimes and destruction like in Falluja.



Please, this insurgency is indeed composed of Iraqi's happy to be rid of Saddam, but at the same time, want the illegal occupation to end.



"More lies"



Agreed. Bin Laden should have been our number 1 target,not Saddam.




I can agree with that.



That is the exact reason why we need to seal the borders. As Joseph Biden said if you are fighting a counter-insurgency, you need to cutt off the borders, so no one leaves and enters.



Yea, I'd like to respond to this highly intellectual comment, but I'm going to bed.

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Again...what are you talking about? What whim? What is going on with this new government is of their own doing. This is why they are having trouble with the constitution. There is dissent between the Shi'ites and Kurds with the Sunni. The Sunni do not want to be equal to them.

You confuse a resistance with dissent. A fraction of the Sunni merely miss their Baathist leader and long for the good old days. This is why they are killing Shi'ites and occassionally attacking us. As far as Fallujah...what do you know about it? Did you know that it was a denizen of insurgency that was headquartered and dug in? Did you know that the Sunni locals were harboring and protecting them? Did you know that they were using the local hospital as a staging point and storage facility to hide IED's? Did you know they were using ambulances to move insurgents from street to street? Yeah...poor Fallujah.

You are lost in leftist rhetoric. These are people that hate us already. These are people that were loyal to Saddam and loved him for his cruelty to Shi'ites and Kurds. These are people that view the torture of other human beings as routine, just, and divine punishments for Allah. These are people that murder and offer human sacrifice in the name of their god. Do you really think they need a few humiliating photographs, a flushed Koran, and a few isolated incidents of torture and even more bull **** exxagerated stories of torure to hate us? Get real. You obviously don't know these people.

These are not "lies" What I tell you is straight military intel from the desert. You forget, TV isn't my source. The Sunni that are fighting against the constitution and killing Shi'ites and fighting Americans do not want to be equal to the rest. It is that simple.

Getting rid of Saddam had nothing to do with our abilities to track down Bin Laden. It is a no factor. Because of the terrain, it is impossible to move massive amounts of troops. This is why you hear on the news, that "special force" units are searching. By "special forces" they mean smaller units.

Seal off the borders? I've heard this wonderful idea from "analysts" and "political commentators" before. What a wonderful idea. The problem with this is that Iraq is the size of almost four large American states. It would take the majority of our entire military pulled from all over the world with no more that a few miles between units along the borders. Do you really think this hasn't been thought of and we haven't done the numbers? It is not feasable.

I'm glad that you "can agree" with some things, considering I am telling you how it is. If you are going to debate about it then say things that matter. Saying things that sound good to you because your favorite commentator said it does not make it true. Arbritraliy throwing numbers out, contributing all of our deaths to the "Iraqi resistance", voicing of a "puppet government", and other wild statements do not do the situation any justice. It is the kind of dribble you would se on an anti-war internet site, where the truth doesn't matter - only what they can distort and pass along. Isn't it discrediting when people speak and write of the 100,000 American "victims" when the number of civilian deaths is nowehere near what they say and that that closer number is made up largely of insurgency inflicted deaths?

Just like with Katrina, where reporters and Democratic politicians were announcing through their panic'd voices, that there could be up to a 100,000 thousand federal victims. How many have they found....800? And how many died during that 4 days?

It's all BS.

You see no use for there land. You don't see any reason for 30,000 of their citizens to be alive. Then, why the fuuck are you still supporting our presence there. Why should we do things that are of no use to us. Or do things for people we do not care about.

You remind me of the Scarecrow (and his desire) in the Wizard of Oz.

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Becasue at least this war is a step in the right direction.

Look, we cant survive with the ever bearing chance of always having to deal with terrorism it is going to get to the point when 9/11's are a every day occurance if this thing doenst get drasticaly severed. And *****-footin around aint gonna do it.

SKILMATIC said:

Look, we cant survive with the ever bearing chance of always having to deal with terrorism it is going to get to the point when 9/11's are a every day occurance if this thing doenst get drasticaly severed. And *****-footin around aint gonna do it.

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I agree!!!
But I guess Bush doesn't think like us. Bush left Afgainistan, let Osama go FREE and invaded Iraq to "LIBERATE" the Iraqi people.:doh Even his father had brains enough not to go into the Muslims holyland in Iraq. SR. knew that little by little it would draw the other 800 million muslims there.

SR. was right! JR. is wrong!

Bush is ***** footing around LIBERATING Iraq while the Talaban and terrorist are left free to rebuild in Afganistan and else where. Those 2 camel riders that Bush left to finish off the terrorist in Afgainstain are just not able to controll the terrorist there. And that 1 man on a camel that Bush sent after Osama just ran out of water!!!

Bush sent out this message to the terrorists:
IF you bomb us again, we will liberate another country that had nothing to do with the bombing!!!:roll:

Well, GySgt, I can argue this till I'm blue in the face, but the fact is you'll always say I'm wrong because I simply don't agree with your train of thought. I defintely can't even fathom where this came from, "I'm not opposed to nuking the entire middle east." And saying that Bin Laden is not our proirity is bull****. He is the one responsible for masterminding the 9/11 attacks killing 3,000 of our people. Did we not go into Afganistan because they were harboring Bin Laden? But I guess dethroning Saddam was a top priority?

Look, we cant survive with the ever bearing chance of always having to deal with terrorism it is going to get to the point when 9/11's are a every day occurance if this thing doenst get drasticaly severed. And *****-footin around aint gonna do it

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Skill, have we been attacked recently by a terrorist? Do you know why we haven't been attacked by terrorists for four years in our home?

kal-el said:

Well, GySgt, I can argue this till I'm blue in the face, but the fact is you'll always say I'm wrong because I simply don't agree with your train of thought. I defintely can't even fathom where this came from, "I'm not opposed to nuking the entire middle east." And saying that Bin Laden is not our proirity is bull****. He is the one responsible for masterminding the 9/11 attacks killing 3,000 of our people. Did we not go into Afganistan because they were harboring Bin Laden? But I guess dethroning Saddam was a top priority?

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This is not clear cut, black-and-white. The priority isn't Bin Laden or Saddam. The priority is funadamental Islam and it's destructive nature. This means the entire region of oppressed Arabs and their narcotic of blame. Bin Laden will go down as soon as he leaves his mountains or when we get intel from one of his where he is. Right now, he is a needle in a haystack.

Like I said before...what good does taking the pusher off of the street do if the drug lord is left to supply another one. The House of Saud and the ruling class in the Middle East is the problem. Stopping with Iraq has bogged us, but America lacks the conviction to let us go all the way. The military has been saying this since the early 90's.

taxpayer said:

I agree!!!
But I guess Bush doesn't think like us. Bush left Afgainistan, let Osama go FREE and invaded Iraq to "LIBERATE" the Iraqi people.:doh Even his father had brains enough not to go into the Muslims holyland in Iraq. SR. knew that little by little it would draw the other 800 million muslims there.

SR. was right! JR. is wrong!

Bush is ***** footing around LIBERATING Iraq while the Talaban and terrorist are left free to rebuild in Afganistan and else where. Those 2 camel riders that Bush left to finish off the terrorist in Afgainstain are just not able to controll the terrorist there. And that 1 man on a camel that Bush sent after Osama just ran out of water!!!

Bush sent out this message to the terrorists:
IF you bomb us again, we will liberate another country that had nothing to do with the bombing!!!:roll:

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There's some truth here, but you should read up some more on the happenings in Afghanistan. He's not free and he's not getting away. He's trapped, where he can't get out and we can't get in. Sending a couple thousand Americans through caverns and hundreds of vulnerable ambush sites to their deaths to get one man is just not going to happen.

And the wrong message was sent out long before Bush Jr. The Clinton years showed these Middle Eastern Islamic Arabs that attacking America's military is OK and would largely be ignored by American citizens. 9/11 got your attentions.

FinnMacCool said:

Skill, have we been attacked recently by a terrorist? Do you know why we haven't been attacked by terrorists for four years in our home?

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This is what boils my blood. The selfish self-centered American. Our military was attacked throughout the 90's with no retaliation. 9/11 occurs and all of a sudden America notices? All of a sudden America's been attacked? All of a sudden our civilians care for revenge? Their is no focus on America right now. They are content with killing their own civilians and military members in Iraq. It's back to the way it was before 9/11. America didn't care about us then, why do they now?

Since GySgt is already jumping down my throat, let me just restate what this argument is about.

Gysgt apparently believes our precence over there is good

I don't and Kal-el doesn't either apparently

Gysgt thinks that people are being selfish when the military gets attacked but when 9/11 happened, we all the sudden wanted revenge.

But doesn't that go to the same argument before about why we are over there?

Must we always have to get into things that are absolutely none of our business?

But Skill thinks we should just nuke the middle east which, while it might destroy terrorists, will destroy civillians also including my friends family and also destroy thousands of years of history, architecture and artwork.

So Gysgt and Skill must be somehow at odds because SKill thinks we should just do away with the middle east while Gysgt thinks we should just be there? Am I missing something?

Originally posted by GySgt:
This is what boils my blood. The selfish self-centered American. Our military was attacked throughout the 90's with no retaliation. 9/11 occurs and all of a sudden America notices? All of a sudden America's been attacked? All of a sudden our civilians care for revenge? Their is no focus on America right now. They are content with killing their own civilians and military members in Iraq. It's back to the way it was before 9/11. America didn't care about us then, why do they now?

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I would like you to answer this question as a human being. Not as a member of the armed services. If this is possible. Is your job more important than your life? Why do you think that civilians that are trying to get your co-workers home as soon as possible, and in one piece, do not care about you? If anything, they don't care about your assignment that you've been given in your job.

What is so god-damn important in Iraq that this country has to give up at least 2000 lives, de-stabilize the entire world and completely trash our reputation around the rest of the globe as a peaceful democratic nation?

We cannot even set up our form of government there. Our government, at least in theory, or at least before our current oligarchy, was for the people and by the people. Over there, the government is in a perpetual state of lock down behind the walls of the Green Zone. They don't even interact with the population they govern. So how could they possibly know what are the concerns of their constituants?

We are currently destroying another town, much like Falluja, and putting 90% of the residence in tents outside the city in the horrific heat of that desert. And the military will not even bring them any water. And you know what, people there now are more willing to be in US custody than with the US trained Iraqi Army. Because apparantly the US jailers have been backing off the torture more and more while the Iraqi Army is increasing the torture on its own citizens. This is the good were doing.

I want all Americans back in this country NOW!

Billo_Really said:

I want all Americans back in this country NOW!

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I am in total agreement with this statement.:smile:

Billo_Really said:

I would like you to answer this question as a human being. Not as a member of the armed services. If this is possible. Is your job more important than your life? Why do you think that civilians that are trying to get your co-workers home as soon as possible, and in one piece, do not care about you? If anything, they don't care about your assignment that you've been given in your job.

What is so god-damn important in Iraq that this country has to give up at least 2000 lives, de-stabilize the entire world and completely trash our reputation around the rest of the globe as a peaceful democratic nation?

We cannot even set up our form of government there. Our government, at least in theory, or at least before our current oligarchy, was for the people and by the people. Over there, the government is in a perpetual state of lock down behind the walls of the Green Zone. They don't even interact with the population they govern. So how could they possibly know what are the concerns of their constituants?

We are currently destroying another town, much like Falluja, and putting 90% of the residence in tents outside the city in the horrific heat of that desert. And the military will not even bring them any water. And you know what, people there now are more willing to be in US custody than with the US trained Iraqi Army. Because apparantly the US jailers have been backing off the torture more and more while the Iraqi Army is increasing the torture on its own citizens. This is the good were doing.

I want all Americans back in this country NOW!

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Yes. It's called duty.