• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Hurricane Threads

Kelzie said:
You're condemning the vast majority for the actions of a few.

And I'm not saying that people couldn't have gotten out (although some couldn't). I'm saying it shouldn't matter.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on this point. They SHOULD have gotten out (and the government of NO and LA should have HELPED them), but as human beings, we should be mournful for their losses and be sympathetic and extend any prayers and help we can.
 
scottyz said:
Is that why he has already dragged Clinton and Bush Sr. into this to help him manage it? At least now he has two competent men beside him to slap him upside the head whenever he opens his mouth.
Click to expand...

They aren't there to help him manage, but to raise funds as they have before in other natural disaster relief efforts.
 
ludahai said:
From your own source:



I repeat the questions you and other liberals have dodged.

1. Why didn't Mayor Negin and Governor Blanco have a plan to evacuate people?
2. Why didn't Governor Blanco mobilize the LA National Guard LAST SATURDAY?!?
Click to expand...

And....what's your point? I asked why it didn't work this time. This seems like a pretty good example of the evacuation plan not working. Thanks for providing it.
 
ANAV said:
The oath of military enlistment states that "I will protect the country against all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Anything that the military does, and they do it very well, is a bonus. I am in the military and do not have any training to deal with a situation like this. So don't put the military's head on the chopping block.

It is the state and local government's job to ensure that there is an emergency plan in place to deal with natural disasters. And dont' say that that the Iraq war took away all the National Guard. The state still had 6,000 plus ready for deployment. They gave the mandatory evacuation notice. Aside from the sick and elderly, if people were too stupid and/or lazy to get out of the way of a hurricane of this magnitude, then how is it the government's fault at any level? The people of New Orleans had ample time to seek higher ground. And don't say there were too poor to leave. If they have enough energy to loot after the storm, then they had enough energy to walk to safety in the days preceding the storm. The people who rode the storm out with young children should be charged with child endangerment.

Face it! If a hurricane is approaching and you are below sea level and the engineers say the the levees may not hold, would you not get your family to safety? Of course you would, any logical person would. Only idiots would stay. I live on the southern Atlantic coast and my chicken ass leaves for a category one storm.

Then some of these idiots shoot at military choppers, policemen, and others that are there to help. And what good does it do to burn the city?
Click to expand...

Your response straddles the border of bigotry and racism, so I am not going to engage in rhetoric with you.
 
I once spent a vacation at the beach in a galvanized storage shed that had a regular size bed, a mini refrigerator, a window air conditioner, a hot plate, and an outhouse/shower. There was literally no place to go except to bed or outside. In such a small space it was an ice box at night in Florida, and good sleeping. It was absolutely perfect for the purpose it was intended to fulfill.

Shelter from hell, where you don‘t even have a locker or privacy at night, or this too cute bedroom:

http://www.bearcreekcarpentry.com/photo2.htm

Now that cost way too much in an emergency, and there are not enough of them already built, so it is just eye candy, but there is a reason to think small:

http://www.ocala.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050813/NEWS/208130338/1170

Make it too good and some of them will not leave it!

http://www.tuffshed.com/HTML/locations.asp

Tuff Shed pricing: http://www.tuffshed.com/SGpricing/210_PriceSheet.pdf

Come on liberals, think of Henry David Thoreau! Get back to your roots.

Now if you live in Texas or any other surrounding state to those affected and you see the items for sale that I have mentioned above and any of those hurricane victims are in shelters three weeks from now, and that stuff is still for sale...
 
Kelzie said:
You're condemning the vast majority for the actions of a few.

And I'm not saying that people couldn't have gotten out (although some couldn't). I'm saying it shouldn't matter.
Click to expand...

Do not forget that evacuation routes were clogged. It is plausible to say that even if they had tried to get out, they still would have failed. Not to mention these people rlied on public transportation. How could public transportation possibly accomodate all these people? Not to mention that these people were told to go to the Superdome! Jesus. Had they known what was in store, do you think they would have considered another option? I wish people would think a little before calling impoverished citizens idiots. I think if someone wants to call a group of people idiots without considering the circumstances, that says a lot about their own mental capacity.
 
Re: Anatomy of a Catastrophic Hurricane - Part 1C

ludahai said:
...As soon as it became clear that Louisiana and Mississippi were in harms way, the President declared a state of emergency, allowing for the unfettered delivery of aid to the affected areas.Hours before the storm hit, President Bush was directing relief operations from Texas.Those idiot liberals who whine tha Bush was on vacation doing nothing have obviously been taking their lessons from Michael Moore.President Bush is completely capable of being President while in Crawford.This isn’t the 1850s, this is the 2000s, and wherever President Bush is, he has the full control and command of the Presidency due to sophisticated communications networks he has at his disposal.

The governor of Louisiana and Mayor of New Orleans ordered people to leave.Fortunately, many did so.However, many others did not – or could not.For those who couldn’t, they were asked to go to the Superdome.As we shall see in part two, that was the best move they could have made, and those who DIDN’T leave or go to the Superdome are in part responsible for the crisis that would occur later on.

Part two will be posted tomorrow (Sunday evening, Taiwan time)
Click to expand...

So, if Bush was on top of things as you clearly state was the case, I think that's even worse than being oblivious to the situation. Way to go Bush! Way to be on top of things! How incompetant can one man be?
 
ANAV said:
Here's a piece that states that the National Guard did not have a shortage of personnel.

Was there a shortage of National Guard troops available to assist because so many are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan?

National Guard officials say that was not a problem. On Friday, three days before Katrina's landfall, 10,000 National Guard troops were dispatched across the Gulf Coast. Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, commander of the National Guard, said bringing in more has been hampered by road conditions but he estimated there will be 32,000 National Guard troops in the region by Monday.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168274,00.html

And here's on article that is critical towards the reduced recruiting in the National Guard, but it does state that Louisiana had 6,000 troops available.

Col. Jerry Vaughn, joint forces chief of staff for the Florida National Guard, said his state had about 6,000 soldiers called up after Hurricane Andrew in 1992. But even that contingent, roughly equal to all the Guard troops remaining in Louisiana, wasn't sufficient. The Pentagon also sent troops from two divisions to Florida.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-31-guard-katrina_x.htm?csp=34
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHA, I love your sig.
 
ANAV said:
The oath of military enlistment states that "I will protect the country against all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Anything that the military does, and they do it very well, is a bonus. I am in the military and do not have any training to deal with a situation like this. So don't put the military's head on the chopping block.

It is the state and local government's job to ensure that there is an emergency plan in place to deal with natural disasters. And dont' say that that the Iraq war took away all the National Guard. The state still had 6,000 plus ready for deployment. They gave the mandatory evacuation notice. Aside from the sick and elderly, if people were too stupid and/or lazy to get out of the way of a hurricane of this magnitude, then how is it the government's fault at any level? The people of New Orleans had ample time to seek higher ground. And don't say there were too poor to leave. If they have enough energy to loot after the storm, then they had enough energy to walk to safety in the days preceding the storm. The people who rode the storm out with young children should be charged with child endangerment.
Face it! If a hurricane is approaching and you are below sea level and the engineers say the the levees may not hold, would you not get your family to safety? Of course you would, any logical person would. Only idiots would stay. I live on the southern Atlantic coast and my chicken ass leaves for a category one storm.

Then some of these idiots shoot at military choppers, policemen, and others that are there to help. And what good does it do to burn the city?
Click to expand...

"They gave the mandatory evacuation notice. Aside from the sick and elderly, if people were too stupid and/or lazy to get out of the way of a hurricane of this magnitude, then how is it the government's fault at any level?"

If the government had FORCED the evacuation, then the same bleeding-heart liberals who are now blaming the government for not doing enough, would be calling the the A.C.L.U. and Rev. Jessie Jackson in order to bring a class-action lawsuit agents Pres. Bush, and the Gov. in general, for violating virtually EVERY Constitutional right; The same rights, I might add, which allowed these people to make the indescribably STUPID decision to stay.

"The people who rode the storm out with young children should be charged with child endangerment."

AMEN!!!

Then some of these idiots shoot at military choppers, policemen, and others that are there to help.

They should return fire with extream prejudice.

I really do not want to here anything about the lack of drinking water from these cute little liberals, eather. After all, isn't dying from thirst "euphoric"?
 
ban.the.electoral.college said:
Come on now... Do you have any idea what our military capabilities are???

We can deploy troops and aid to anywhere in the world within two days. Need I remind you where New Orleans is located? I'm not saying that the FG are the only ones to blame. But, you can not deny that they dropped the ball.

People were stranded for several days in 90 degree + heat without running water or food (not to mention all the things one may take for granted). That is disgusting. Unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Our military capabilities are better than anyone else's....however, I beg to differ with you on that "2 day window" to deploy anywhere.

In order to move thousands of troops anywhere.......you need to:

-Have clear ground information

-Arrange transportation. Trucks, aircraft, helicopters, etc...

-Set up communications.

-Arrange for fuel facilities for the troop transports.

-Set up living quarters for those troops...with eating, drinking and sanitary facilities.

-Arrange to have enough people with the appropriate training to perform specific tasks.

-Set up medical facilities and emergency evacuation for the troops.

-Set up command and control centers.

-Set up staging areas.

-Establish supply lines.

-Coordinate with local authority.

Then, and only then can you begin to effectively assist the more than 1 MILLION people affected by the hurricane. Remember that in every massive relief effort, complex logistical problems present themselves.
 
Busta said:
"They gave the mandatory evacuation notice. Aside from the sick and elderly, if people were too stupid and/or lazy to get out of the way of a hurricane of this magnitude, then how is it the government's fault at any level?"

If the government had FORCED the evacuation, then the same bleeding-heart liberals who are now blaming the government for not doing enough, would be calling the the A.C.L.U. and Rev. Jessie Jackson in order to bring a class-action lawsuit agents Pres. Bush, and the Gov. in general, for violating virtually EVERY Constitutional right; The same rights, I might add, which allowed these people to make the indescribably STUPID decision to stay.

"The people who rode the storm out with young children should be charged with child endangerment."

AMEN!!!

Then some of these idiots shoot at military choppers, policemen, and others that are there to help.

They should return fire with extream prejudice.

I really do not want to here anything about the lack of drinking water from these cute little liberals, eather. After all, isn't dying from thirst "euphoric"?
Click to expand...

"Craig Marks who runs Blue Horizons Consulting, an emergency management training company in North Carolina, said the authorities had mishandled the evacuation, neglecting to help those without transportation to leave the city.

"They could have packed people on trains or buses and gotten them out before the hurricane struck. They had enough time and access to federal funds. And now, we find we do not have a proper emergency communications infrastructure so aid workers get out into the field and they can't talk to one another," he said.

Most of those trapped by the floods in the city of some 500,000 people are the poor who had little chance to leave." SOURCE

You are mis-informed. These people were not stupid. They clearly did not have the means to get out of the city.
 
Last edited:
Our military capabilities are better than anyone else's....however, I beg to differ with you on that "2 day window" to deploy anywhere.

In order to move thousands of troops anywhere.......you need to:

-Have clear ground information

-Arrange transportation. Trucks, aircraft, helicopters, etc...

-Set up communications.

-Arrange for fuel facilities for the troop transports.

-Set up living quarters for those troops...with eating, drinking and sanitary facilities.

-Arrange to have enough people with the appropriate training to perform specific tasks.

-Set up medical facilities and emergency evacuation for the troops.

-Set up command and control centers.

-Set up staging areas.

-Establish supply lines.

-Coordinate with local authority.

Then, and only then can you begin to effectively assist the more than 1 MILLION people affected by the hurricane. Remember that in every massive relief effort, complex logistical problems present themselves.
Click to expand...

Wow and I thought I was the only one who knows about logistics
 
First off, my deep condolences and sympathy to all who have lost loved ones and/or all earthly possessions. I can't even begin to imagine their trauma and depression under such extreme conditions.

That sentiment said and expressed, I wish to comment on a train of thought proposed by Senator Dennis Hastert (R-IL). Essentially, he questions the wisdom of rebuilding the metropolis of New Orleans. Is this course of action wise, or is it merely throwing good money after bad? On reflection, Mr. Hastert's concerns have some validity from both an altruistic and economic viewpoint.

The bulk of New Orleans lies at the bottom of a geographical bowl, averaging six feet below sea level. With the onslaught of Katrina, the city of New Orleans has functionally ceased to exist. The infrastructure is decimated. All power generating and communications facilities are destroyed. Severe damage was administered to the sewage system. All road, rail, and water transport systems are severely compromised. Medical facilities are for all practical purposes nonexistent. Perhaps thousands of people have perished in this disaster, along with an unknown number of animal-life. Most private residences and public businesses are a total loss. It will take between two to six months to completely drain the city of water. Even then, there remains the problem of extreme soil contamination and lingering environmental hazards. The financial and economic losses are almost incalculable. Those are the hard facts. Now come the hard questions.

Should New Orleans be rebuilt? Under what conditions? Would it be better to appendage new construction to existent viable structures or raze everything and begin anew? Why rebuild a city that lies six feet below sea level and is subject to renewed flooding? Are more levee barriers necessary and would this prevent another occurrence? With severe environmental questions hovering like a Sword of Damocles, is this location feasible and safe for human habitation? From the human viewpoint... can this trauma of death and destruction be redacted to tolerable levels? Will displaced residents ever return? Will businesses? Will life and property insurance rates for New Orleans be financially prohibitive? Most current flood losses were uninsured... what happens to debts still owed such as mortgages? Who could afford new construction, a second mortgage, and prohibitive insurance rates? Who would want to? What business would again place its coveted assets in jeopardy?

Mr. Bush has promised that New Orleans will rise like a phoenix from the ashes of oblivion. I well understand his motivation. However, it is not merely a question of domestic political necessity. A myriad of immense and far-ranging problems never previously encountered between our shores demand that we think things through thoroughly and carefully before embracing warm-and-fuzzy promises that perhaps can be neither reconciled nor realized. Despite the criticism he received, Mr. Hastert has raised viable questions that cannot be so easily dismissed with a kiss and a promise. The commitment expressed by president Bush is understandable and laudable in the immediacy of the moment. However, it must also be acknowledged that the problems and risks that are manifest in the long-term are staggering and extremely problematic.

I advocate no specific course here. My sole intent is to impart important considerations that are indeed germane to this tragedy. All comments on the gist of this post are encouraged and welcomed.


 
ban.the.electoral.college said:
"Craig Marks who runs Blue Horizons Consulting, an emergency management training company in North Carolina, said the authorities had mishandled the evacuation, neglecting to help those without transportation to leave the city.

"They could have packed people on trains or buses and gotten them out before the hurricane struck. They had enough time and access to federal funds. And now, we find we do not have a proper emergency communications infrastructure so aid workers get out into the field and they can't talk to one another," he said.

Most of those trapped by the floods in the city of some 500,000 people are the poor who had little chance to leave." SOURCE

You are mis-informed. These people were not stupid. They clearly did not have the means to get out of the city.
Click to expand...

The government never gets anything important right. People should know that by now, and not rely on the government.
If the people had access to a history lesson, then they knew that the city was under sea level and, thus, should not have been in the city during a hurricane of any magnitude.
If they had access to a radio or T.V., then they knew that a Hurricane was on the way well in advance.
If they could use their feet, they could leave.

The disabled and dependent have my sympathies and my prayers; and regarding them, I join your anger.
 
cnredd said:
If you consider gathering past Presidents a negative, than you are sadly mistaken...

Getting past Presidents who have already been through the experiences of being the Big Cheese is an incredibly smart move....would you rather he NOT have experienced people around him?

Who gets more respect?...The coach who has been to the Super Bowl?...or the coach who has never got past Division II backup lineman?

There have only been 42 people who have had Bush's job in the last 200+ years...Gathering people who have already been there can only be a positive...not this political spin trash that you're spewing....
Click to expand...
ROFL! Yeah right... If Clinton had dragged Bush Sr. and Reagan into his messes everytime something went wrong you'd be spewing the same "spin trash". The person who holds the Presidential office should be competent enough to not have to completely rely on the last two Presidents during every disaster.
 
ban.the.electoral.college said:

Your response straddles the border of bigotry and racism, so I am not going to engage in rhetoric with you.
Click to expand...

Show me once where I even mentioned race? You are the one that mentioned it. Are you sure you are not the racist? Do you hang out with Senetor Bryd?
 
scottyz said:
ROFL! Yeah right... If Clinton had dragged Bush Sr. and Reagan into his messes everytime something went wrong you'd be spewing the same "spin trash". The person who holds the Presidential office should be competent enough to not have to completely rely on the last two Presidents during every disaster.
Click to expand...

The reason GW called upon Clinton and GHW to come to his side is because each of them appeals to a very different base than he. Clinton can raise money easily from liberals, while GHW can get money from old traditional conservatives. Each of them is an invaluable celebrity when it comes to raising money for causes, in addition to being valuable sources of advice.

It's great to see that in the few cases left in this country where people from two opposing parties put their differences aside to try to accomplish something for the greater good, there will still be ignorant partisan hacks who will whine and criticize those leaders for doing so.

Great job, you're making our country proud.

:?
 
Military Sealift Command charters 3 cruise ships for relief efforts

Carnival Cruise Lines has chartered three of its cruise ships to the Military Sealift Command (MSC) on behalf of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) for six months as part of Hurricane Katrina relief efforts.

The three cruise ships are the Ecstasy, Sensation and Holiday.

http://www.carnival.com/cms/Articles/fema_charter.aspx
 
ban.the.electoral.college said:
"Craig Marks who runs Blue Horizons Consulting, an emergency management training company in North Carolina, said the authorities had mishandled the evacuation, neglecting to help those without transportation to leave the city.

"They could have packed people on trains or buses and gotten them out before the hurricane struck. They had enough time and access to federal funds. And now, we find we do not have a proper emergency communications infrastructure so aid workers get out into the field and they can't talk to one another," he said.

Most of those trapped by the floods in the city of some 500,000 people are the poor who had little chance to leave." SOURCE

You are mis-informed. These people were not stupid. They clearly did not have the means to get out of the city.
Click to expand...

They didn't have the means? Why didn't they use the hundreds of buses that sat unused in parking lots? Oh, that's right, the mayor didn't deploy the buses.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

Why didn't they leave on Monday when the evacuation order came down? Oh, that's right, the Mayor IGNORED President Bush's request not to delay the evacuation until the next morning.

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louis...s-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana

I'm loath to lay blame on anyone for mispreparation, but I'd rather have people blaming those responsible than blaming the president who had nothing to do with it.
 
RightatNYU said:
there will still be ignorant partisan hacks who will whine and criticize those leaders for doing so.

Great job, you're making our country proud.

:?
Click to expand...
Yeah.. the Republicans never whined and critized Clinton. :rofl There will also always be hyprocrites like you who only take offense when people are being critical of their party leaders. Great job, you're making our country proud.
 
scottyz said:
Yeah.. the Republicans never whined and critized Clinton. :rofl There will also always be hyprocrites like you who only take offense when people are being critical of their party leaders. Great job, you're making our country proud.
Click to expand...

Right. Remind me when it was that I criticized Clinton for reaching out to people of all political stripes to help raise money after a terrible national tragedy.

Criticizing a politician for decisions such as raising taxes, banning gays from the military, or having an affair is a lot different that criticizing one for doing everything possible to help victims of a tragedy.

There will always be ignorant people like you who can't put two and two together to understand the difference between the two situations.

Congratulations, you're making me sad about the future of political discourse in our country.
 
RightatNYU said:
Right. Remind me when it was that I criticized Clinton for reaching out to people of all political stripes to help raise money after a terrible national tragedy.

Criticizing a politician for decisions such as raising taxes, banning gays from the military, or having an affair is a lot different that criticizing one for doing everything possible to help victims of a tragedy.
Click to expand...
If you believe he did everything in his power to help these victims then you are one sad brainwashed person.
 
RightatNYU said:
Right. Remind me when it was that I criticized Clinton for reaching out to people of all political stripes to help raise money after a terrible national tragedy.

Criticizing a politician for decisions such as raising taxes, banning gays from the military, or having an affair is a lot different that criticizing one for doing everything possible to help victims of a tragedy.
Click to expand...
If you believe he did everything in his power to help these victims then you are one sad brainwashed person. He certainly didn't cut funding for levvy in N.O. building every year he was in office... didn't cut finding to the Army Corp of engineers there. Didn't ignore requests for equipment to be sent back from Iraq. Didn't ignore pleases for evacuation aid.. YEAH RIGHT!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom