With all respect to all nations

mixedmedia said:

Do you have an opinion as to why their intolerance so often results in tragedy and violence? While ours usually manifests in more passive and/or sociable ways (w/ notable exceptions)?

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The West grew up...The Middle East stagnated...

cnredd said:

But pointing out one's intolerance as a way to negate their position that other people are being intolerant doesn't accomplish anything...

If I say "You are wrong", You pointing out that I am also wrong doesn't negate the original contention...

If I tell a ten-year old that they shouldn't smoke, the fact that I have a Marlboro Light in my hand is irrelevant...My position is still clear...

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I didn't try to negate his position. I interpreted his post as saying "you should be more tolerant like us." Not trying to quibble. Also don't want to be more presumptuous and arrogant than we deserve.

mixedmedia said:

Do you have an opinion as to why their intolerance so often results in tragedy and violence? While ours usually manifests in more passive and/or sociable ways (w/ notable exceptions)?

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We have figured out how to be civilized...To a degree. It doesn't take much as a society to understand basic human morality. Some things should and should not be accepted in a civilized society, specialy when and if it effects large numbers of people.

Calm2Chaos said:

We have figured out how to be civilized...To a degree. It doesn't take much as a society to understand basic human morality. Some things should and should not be accepted in a civilized society, specialy when and if it effects large numbers of people.

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I don't know, I think there's more to it than that. I tend to think it is more a difference in security and the impact a lack thereof has on a society.

mixedmedia said:

I don't know, I think there's more to it than that. I tend to think it is more a difference in security and the impact a lack thereof has on a society.

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Our security in a word is pathetic. Everyday its being corroded and eroded a little more. Attempts to bolster or strengthen it seem to get met with resitance of those that would rather be dead then offend someone.

The idea of security I think got shattered a number of years ago. Now the truth IMO is that the majority of Americans have already forgotten about 9/11. And they are slowly falling back into the "Safe and Sound" mindset. But the truth is that we are making striking this country easier everyday IMO. And sooner or later its going to bite us in the ass, BIG time. And then there will be the standard screams of why and how.

Calm2Chaos said:

Our security in a word is pathetic. Everyday its being corroded and eroded a little more. Attempts to bolster or strengthen it seem to get met with resitance of those that would rather be dead then offend someone.

The idea of security I think got shattered a number of years ago. Now the truth IMO is that the majority of Americans have already forgotten about 9/11. And they are slowly falling back into the "Safe and Sound" mindset. But the truth is that we are making striking this country easier everyday IMO. And sooner or later its going to bite us in the ass, BIG time. And then there will be the standard screams of why and how.

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I don't mean national security so much as security on a societal level. cnredd's comment about stagnation is closer to what I'm talking about, I guess. I think it's hard for us to imagine what it is like to grow and live in a society that is lacking the basic fundamental structures that most of us have and take for granted in the West. And societies that don't often devolve into violence, terror, revolution and other desperate acts - sometimes turned inward, sometimes outward. In the Middle East I think that distinction can be at least partly explained by the religious fervor, but not fully. It doesn't take much insight or intelligence, though, to see that the places where there are sound societal foundations that the citizens can pretty much rely on day to day aren't as vulnerable to the phenomena of mass violence, with a few isolated exceptions.

And this is where my liberal bleeding heart comes in, 'cause I feel if we don't do the right things and assist a renaissance of sorts for ME countries, then we're kind of, well, ****ed.

In the defense of many islam

Its become a twisted religion by the state, and the state right now owns the middle east. In Liberal Semi free countries in muslim countries, you see "terrorism" and "islamic extremism" drop by huge percentages when media, freedom of speech, and simply the right to vote for representatives take place.


I think its wrong for us to assume that terrorists have psychological disorders, its more over that they come from such a backround, like those who are secular who commit similiar crimes (IRA , King tigers), that their psychology can be easily molded into a different perception, and from that comes terrorism. It is much similiar to what the military does. They break you down and build you up. In a sense, thats how one becomes a terrorist, you are broken down, and re-built again.


That is a bit oversimplified but I think it suffices. I'm no expert on terrorism nor do I want it to seem like thats what I'm trying to protray.

Calm2Chaos said:

Seems to be Europe is going to curtail freedom of the press for the sake of rioting muslims/islamist.

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I don't see it this way. If there is a lack of responsibility in Europe, rules are needed. It shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Btw, the Danish newspaper person, who is responsible for it, has been send to vacation yesterday after bragging, he will do the same with other religions. The management was like, it is all too much for him.

Volker said:

Today I read, that European Union is busy to develop a press codex to prevent such insults in the future. This is actually good news and I hope it works.

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Do you really support censorship? Because that is all it would be.

Hi again ,

well it gives me great pleasure to read all those opinions.. it tells me more and more about what is reaching you guys and what is not..
as i pointed before, there are around 1,300,000,000 muslims around the world and i would like to tell you that the majority of 'em believe in what i said earlier and agree with me and that what you guys see on tv and hear in the news is just some organizations .. as for cartoons against christians or jews, those are ignorant people & unaware of what Islam is about .. i am sure if prophet muhammed was here today, will never accept them as true muslims because they violate every pricipal he had taught us..

Media now is a very powerful force that can change a lot of things (and i believe all of you agree with me) so those organizations are taking advantage of that point and they succeeded in turning the whole world againts muslims in general and think of Islam & Prophet Muhammed terrorism itself, not only that , some consider us as cave people & old fasioned!! ..
i do not want to turn the discussion into a political issue now because it is a religious issue (the cartoon thing that started the whole thing in the first place) and i wanna send a message to everyone who can read these posts that we will always be against terrorism that is taking place around the world now under the name of Islam .. We want all the nations to get along and live in harmony by being good to one another and respecting each other even if we do not agree on many things religion wise that does not mean we can not live with each other without hatered..

MrFungus420 said:

Do you really support censorship? Because that is all it would be.

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Oh yes, I do. We have a press codex in Germany and I know, the Austrians have one, too. I don't know about other countries.
It is not called censorship, because the press council is not dependent on government, it's an organization of media associations. But it works like censorship in some degree, I guess.

Peaceful Muslim said:

We want all the nations to get along and live in harmony by being good to one another and respecting each other even if we do not agree on many things religion wise that does not mean we can not live with each other without hatered..

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This would be an excellent basis for international relationships.

Volker said:

Oh yes, I do. We have a press codex in Germany and I know, the Austrians have one, too. I don't know about other countries.
It is not called censorship, because the press council is not dependent on government, it's an organization of media associations. But it works like censorship in some degree, I guess.

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I just read Germany's press codex, and, I agree that it isn't really censorship. It seems more to be establishing guidelines for responsibility in reporting.

However, there are a couple points in it that I disagree with. According to it, something that was written that supported virtually any truly contentious area is inappropriate. Two examples that come immediately to mind would be anything written that supports choice in the matter of abortion or gay marriage, because they could seriously offend those who object to them on a moral and religious basis.

It also seems that to publish anything derogatory about somebody because they belong to a group like the KKK, Nazis, IRA, Taliban, etc. is not allowed.

Peaceful Muslim said:

Hi again ,

well it gives me great pleasure to read all those opinions.. it tells me more and more about what is reaching you guys and what is not..
as i pointed before, there are around 1,300,000,000 muslims around the world and i would like to tell you that the majority of 'em believe in what i said earlier and agree with me and that what you guys see on tv and hear in the news is just some organizations .. as for cartoons against christians or jews, those are ignorant people & unaware of what Islam is about .. i am sure if prophet muhammed was here today, will never accept them as true muslims because they violate every pricipal he had taught us..

Media now is a very powerful force that can change a lot of things (and i believe all of you agree with me) so those organizations are taking advantage of that point and they succeeded in turning the whole world againts muslims in general and think of Islam & Prophet Muhammed terrorism itself, not only that , some consider us as cave people & old fasioned!! ..
i do not want to turn the discussion into a political issue now because it is a religious issue (the cartoon thing that started the whole thing in the first place) and i wanna send a message to everyone who can read these posts that we will always be against terrorism that is taking place around the world now under the name of Islam .. We want all the nations to get along and live in harmony by being good to one another and respecting each other even if we do not agree on many things religion wise that does not mean we can not live with each other without hatered..

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If only your voice was multiplied by those who agree with your statements...

Keep in mind...Only those with limited knowledge think it is ALL Muslims that condore terrorism...India has millions of Muslims with a female leader...Malaysia only has fringe elements compared to the majority of the population(which is the largest Muslim pop. in the world)...Muslims reside in great numbers in China, and unlike democratic nations, they are not imported...

Those with an IQ above triple digits understand that it is the Middle Eastern culture, and not the Ummah, that is the problem...Religion is not the cause for those who spread terrorism...It is only used to attract the pawns that will be sent to their death and they do so willingly based on that perversion...But the ones who do the commanding are only interested in the politics of control...

Looking from the outside in, it's easy to see the hypocritical rhetoric being spun to their masses...But the ones who are hearing it locally do not have access to our outlets which expose this hypocrisy...

This will eventually change, but it will be slow and painful...

Come on guys radical Christainity is responsible for spreading hate and violence too. However we know that their is decent christains out there. As i know that they are decent Muslims out there.

GarzaUK said:

Come on guys radical Christainity is responsible for spreading hate and violence too. However we know that their is decent christains out there. As i know that they are decent Muslims out there.

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To make a comparison is weak...

That's like making a comparison between a mass murderer and a guy caught with 3 ounces of pot just because they're both in prison...

cnredd said:

To make a comparison is weak...

That's like making a comparison between a mass murderer and a guy caught with 3 ounces of pot just because they're both in prison...

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Ahem Oklahoma bombing...:roll:

Radical christains call for the stoning of gays. Incitement of hatred.
Radical Christains call for beheading of cartoonists. Incitement of hatred.

GarzaUK said:

Ahem Oklahoma bombing...:roll:

Radical christains call for the stoning of gays. Incitement of hatred.
Radical Christains call for beheading of cartoonists. Incitement of hatred.

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I'm assuming the second "Christians" should by "Muslims"...a result of a copy & paste error...

Once again, if you would like to compare fringe individuals in isolated incidents to a civilization that has killed millions for "Allah", you have that right legally...

Illogical and absurd...but legal...:shrug:

Read my sig, then look in the mirror...:2wave:

cnredd said:

I'm assuming the second "Christians" should by "Muslims"...a result of a copy & paste error...

Once again, if you would like to compare fringe individuals in isolated incidents to a civilization that has killed millions for "Allah", you have that right legally...

Illogical and absurd...but legal...:shrug:

Read my sig, then look in the mirror...:2wave:

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Doh:doh , I did mean muslims. I detest the radical parts of religion, of any religion that spread hate and violence. I could find you quotes of pastors calling the extermination of the Islamic religion, homosexuals etc etc. It just that radical Islam beleives in sucide bombings (which makes them more dangerous) while Christainity does not. But they are as bad as each other in my opinion.

GarzaUK said:

Doh:doh , I did mean muslims. I detest the radical parts of religion, of any religion that spread hate and violence. I could find you quotes of pastors calling the extermination of the Islamic religion, homosexuals etc etc. It just that radical Islam beleives in sucide bombings (which makes them more dangerous) while Christainity does not. But they are as bad as each other in my opinion.

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I agree that they can be equally bad in thinking, but as far as actions go, you're WAY off base...We'd have to clone Pat Robertson(shudder!) about 50,000 times to even come CLOSE to the clerical control in the Middle East...Christian Radicals are fringe in Western Society...and looked down upon openly by the mainstream...

Muslim radicals are not fringe in Middle Eastern Society...
They are not the majority, but they are certainly not fringe...They are cheered or ignored, but definitely NOT looked down upon...

When Robertson opens his yap, what is the majority opinion?...

"He's a moron!"...

When a radical Mullah opens his yap in the Middle East, what is the majority opinion?...

Don't think it's the same now do you?...:2wave:

MrFungus420 said:

I just read Germany's press codex, and, I agree that it isn't really censorship. It seems more to be establishing guidelines for responsibility in reporting.

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This was the aim of the people, who wrote it, I think.

MrFungus420 said:

However, there are a couple points in it that I disagree with. According to it, something that was written that supported virtually any truly contentious area is inappropriate. Two examples that come immediately to mind would be anything written that supports choice in the matter of abortion or gay marriage, because they could seriously offend those who object to them on a moral and religious basis.

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This would be cipher 10? "Seriously offend" is not practised that strict. The Danish cartoons, for instance, would have not been allowed to print in the first place in germany because of cipher 10. With the protests arising they have been allowed to be printed, so people are able to know, what it's all about. Abortion or gay marriage are not seen as topics of serious offense, as far as I know, at least they have been discussed controversial in the press. But it depends on the persons at press council.

MrFungus420 said:

It also seems that to publish anything derogatory about somebody because they belong to a group like the KKK, Nazis, IRA, Taliban, etc. is not allowed.

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Yes, but of course the media can inform about this people. They don't care, if a terrorist feels seriously offended to be called a terrorist.

Belief systems are a choice. Trouble begins when people treat belief systems as if they did not involve choice, and live in a world of absolutes.

Intrinsic to any belief system is a sense of chauvenism. This chauvenism derives from the sense of rightness we all attach to our beliefs and is a product of our defense mechanisms. It is the chauvenism that leads to the intolerance.

The question I would ask is why, if at all, Islam produces more than its share of those who treat their religion in terms of absolutes and for whom the magnitude of their chauvenism is so great?

I agree that the cartoons were offensive, but they pale in comparison to the revolting anti Jewish blood libels appearing regularly in various Islamic countries. If one is to respect religion, then let's lead by example. If people only want their own religion respected while offering no respect towards others, they are acting in an extremely chauvenistic manner.

Since religion is a choice, Muslims are as free as Christian or Jewish people (or any other religion) to choose which aspects of their religion they with to follow. There are aspects to all that are troublesome and problemantic to the other, and if people choose to hone in on these aspects of their religion, they do so by choice. The very first book of the Christian New testament contains the sermon on the mount, yet some Christians ignore that while focusing on aspects oft he religion that support their intolerant attitudes towards others. In Islam, the notion of Dhimmi is troublesome to me as are some of the direct references to other religions as well as the practice of al takeyya, yet there are also some wonderful passages in the Q'ran as well.

My question I would ask Muslims is this: Which aspects of Islam do you follow and which do you not? What aspects do you feel obliged to explain away and which do you admit can be troublesome for others? To what degree do you view your religion as absolute?

I think if there is to be any real peace between people holding different religious views, they ALL must be willing to engage in a little bit of self examination as well as honest criticism of their own religion to the degree they find the good stuff. Otherwise, these belief ststems will only lead to violence by those who use their religion to exclude others instead of looking for the commonality.

mixedmedia said:

Tolerance literally means to respect their religion or their beliefs.

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Islam is not known for being tolerant. Even Turkey the most modern muslim country in the middle east is no picnic for ts christians.

JOHNYJ said:

Islam is not known for being tolerant. Even Turkey the most modern muslim country in the middle east is no picnic for ts christians.

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Did I say that Islam is known for being tolerant?

Peaceful Muslim said:

i do not want to turn the discussion into a political issue now because it is a religious issue (the cartoon thing that started the whole thing in the first place) and i wanna send a message to everyone who can read these posts that we will always be against terrorism that is taking place around the world now under the name of Islam .. We want all the nations to get along and live in harmony by being good to one another and respecting each other even if we do not agree on many things religion wise that does not mean we can not live with each other without hatered..

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The cartoon thing did not start the whole thing!

Many “liberal” Americans consider that terrorists “are playing by the rules of warfare,” so it is important for each of us to define the word “terrorism,” and it is important to know who the enemy is. I need to know who the magical “they” are that Saddam said “should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings,“ and I need to know what is a logical and justified response to that statecraft by the leader of a known State Sponsor of Terrorism. I need to know who considers Hamas to be terrorists, and what is a justified response to them calling for attacks against Americans.

“What we've got here is failure to communicate!”

*****

“hey there,
i am here in this forum from now on. we can post back and forth regarding religion. if you need any info in the real islam and not the media's version, then i will be glad to provide you with it. that is if i am capable. i will search for an online english version of the quraan and post the link here, if for some reason i dont come too often to this board, email me and provide a link for me to get back here lol i may have lost it!” (posted August 30, 2001 03:50 PM muslim New Member Member # 1324) "new colored forum please" (I left out the email address, because I got no response after 911, but the website is still up.)

“…It just looks to me like chastisement, and death for nonbelievers here on earth is what is being advocated. If I am interpreting this correctly, that’s not nice. These could easy be misinterpreted, it that is what I am doing but I really don’t think so, to justify terrorist fanatics.” (posted August 30, 2001 10:35 PM by me)

“well, i do not have time to write much tonight, i have things to do around the home and i will get back to you later, just to let you know i am not ignoring you.
by the way, if someone misinterprets it, then they need to read it again or go ahead and believe whatever they believe, i am not going to explain things over and over again to people who will just use what i give them and turn it around to proove their points.
it seems no matter what i say.. people will only understand what they wish to understand. and follow what they choose to follow.
i will write more tomorrow when i have a better chance to read your post in it's entirity.
muslim.” (posted August 31, 2001 11:22 PM by muslim New Member Member # 1324)

“…Have a good night and I look forward to any help you can give. I can be patient so don’t hurry on anything.” (posted September 01, 2001 12:03 AM by me)

“You will see that some important questions of mine were never answered.
"Let slip the dogs of war!" “(posted September 11, 2001 05:11 PM by me.)

*****

No Muslim of the three Taliban supporters, that were on that message board prior to 911, ever showed up after September 11, 2001.

The bloody Mujahideen link on that “Peaceful Muslim” website was not there before September 11, 2001: http://www.geocities.com/weneedallah/index.html

I was able to make the bloody Mujahideen link work back then, and I know WHY the link went down!

Also the “Peaceful” Muslim programmer of the Koran software that I was using on September 11, 2001, supported our attackers after September 11, 2001. So forgive me if I want more than empty words of “peace” that avoid a real conversation.

I want answers:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=225328&postcount=12