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We only attack brutal dictatorships

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
No it wasn't by mistake it was by intent and there needs be no apologies for defeating the Evil Empire no apologies at all. All these so called governments we overthrew were tyrannical and totalitarian in nature, we need not apologize for overthrowing and killing communist tyrants and in fact I prefer to think of it as a badge of honor. "Gorbachev tear down this wall or we'll tear you a new ass!"


Three problems with that argument.........

[a] many of the governments that where overthrown where neither comunist nor tyranical. For example prime minister jacob arbenz guatemala, who led the labour party into a democratic government was more center-left/socialist then comunist and his only crime was to nationalise land that was being used by the united fruit company. Not surpriseingly the c.i.a in its usual mafia style, overthrew the government. Although they claimed it was comunist the labour party in guetamala was no more left-wing then the labour party in the uk during the post war consensus [which america suporrted at times]

[2] If the c.i.a was intrested in freeing people from tyranny it wouldnt have suporrted mass murdering dictators. Jacob arbenz didnt murder anyone or abuse democracy/human rights in anyway. His dictator sucessor did.

[3] in reality the u.s.a is the evil empire as any thrid world government seeking economic or political freedom from the u.s is removed or repressed. If latin america wanted freedom from left-wing governments it wouldnt vote them in time and time again.
 
Red_Dave said:
Three problems with that argument.........

[a] many of the governments that where overthrown where neither comunist nor tyranical. For example prime minister jacob arbenz guatemala, who led the labour party into a democratic government was more center-left/socialist then comunist and his only crime was to nationalise land that was being used by the united fruit company. Not surpriseingly the c.i.a in its usual mafia style, overthrew the government. Although they claimed it was comunist the labour party in guetamala was no more left-wing then the labour party in the uk during the post war consensus [which america suporrted at times]

[2] If the c.i.a was intrested in freeing people from tyranny it wouldnt have suporrted mass murdering dictators. Jacob arbenz didnt murder anyone or abuse democracy/human rights in anyway. His dictator sucessor did.

[3] in reality the u.s.a is the evil empire as any thrid world government seeking economic or political freedom from the u.s is removed or repressed. If latin america wanted freedom from left-wing governments it wouldnt vote them in time and time again.


Governments are self serving and are supposed to protect the interests of their citizens. Why shouldn't America hold these truths just like all other governments? Are we supposed to be perfect and just run around the world expending our lives and finances to protect the lands of others? Are we supposed to be at everyone's beckon call and to be used for their needs? Does everything we do have to be under a microscope for the pleasures of those nations that don't lift a finger to help anyone, but are quick to accept it?

When it comes to our needs, we are "war mongers" and "terrorists."
 
GySgt said:
Governments are self serving and are supposed to protect the interests of their citizens. Why shouldn't America hold these truths just like all other governments? Are we supposed to be perfect and just run aroud the world expending our lives and finances to protect the lands of others? Are we supposed to be at everyone's beckon call and to be used for their needs?

When it comes to our needs, we are "war mongers" and "terrorists."

Well as you could let other countrys have there own independance rather than expending your lives and finances to prevent that from happening. Most other countrys cope without controlling the rest of the world.
 
Red_Dave said:
Well as you could let other countrys have there own independance rather than expending your lives and finances to prevent that from happening. Most other countrys cope without controlling the rest of the world.


You mean like Europe during two world wars, Bonsia, and Kosovo? You mean like sitting idly by as other nations ask for help and protection through the establishment of a U.S. Embassy?

The free world depends upon free international trade. There is a lot of economies that are influenced positively by free trade. How much trade does England do with foreign countries? How much oil does England get from the Middle East? Without U.S. Embassies scattered throughout the democratic world some of these democratic nations would have fallen to aggressors and so would their trades.

The reason most other countries cope without controlling the rest of the world is because we do it for them and are bombarded by criticisms and negativity while doing it.
 
GySgt said:
You mean like Europe during two world wars, Bonsia, and Kosovo? You mean like sitting idly by as other nations ask for help and protection through the establishment of a U.S. Embassy?

The free world depends upon free international trade. There is a lot of economies that are influenced positively by free trade. How much trade does England do with foreign countries? How much oil does England get from the Middle East? Without U.S. Embassies scattered throughout the democratic world some of these democratic nations would have fallen to aggressors and so would their trades.

The reason most other countries cope without controlling the rest of the world is because we do it for them and are bombarded by criticisms and negativity while doing it.

We are as perfect a nation, as has ever been witnessed in human history. You would never hear of any of our faults, had we not been so successful, and so wealthy. If we were, let's say.......Russia, well, you would never hear criticism, people would just pretend it wasn't happening, funny how that works.:roll:
 
Deegan said:
We are as perfect a nation, as has ever been witnessed in human history. You would never hear of any of our faults, had we not been so successful, and so wealthy. If we were, let's say.......Russia, well, you would never hear criticism, people would just pretend it wasn't happening, funny how that works.:roll:


We also lay our faults out for the world to see. Hardly what we see from other nations who has a tighter restraint on their media.
 
GySgt said:
We also lay our faults out for the world to see. Hardly what we see from other nations who has a tighter restraint on their media.

What is the definition of a dictator... our esteemed noncommisssioned officer?

Define dictation for me.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
A tyrant who leads a country with absolute power usually by force with no accountability to the people.

A ruler having "absolute power"....

Sounds like someone we all know.... and even someone trajan does fight for.
 
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Conflict said:
A ruler having "absolute power"....

Sounds like someone we all know.... and even someone trajan does fight for.

Are you referring to Bush? If so, I simply laugh at you and tell you to visit a country where a dictator truly does have absolute power.
 
AmeriKKKa is a Brutal dictatorship so why don't your politicians attack there own people??

Oh yeah thats what 9/11 was, silly me.

I guess your right then, N.Korea next eh??
 
The Real McCoy said:
Are you referring to Bush? If so, I simply laugh at you and tell you to visit a country where a dictator truly does have absolute power.

According to Fact... Saddam Hussein was brutal dictator... he killed ... what.... several thousand people to proliferate his will....

According to Fact.... George Walker Bush is a brutal dictator.... he killed....
what.... several thousand people to proliferate his will....

Not to mention all the deaths of the cold war (quiet war) of attrition that has not yet ended... racking up over hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.... concering the issue of "politics" in general. All by the hand of a Hawkish legacy who has yet to substantiate one aspect of his alarmist tactics... save the fact that he was attacked because of his fathers liberal and global policy.

People may wonder why I call myself a centrist.... That's because people don't die by the political agenda of a centrist. Life is pristine to some of us. There is no political agenda that can justify the concept of a "pawn".
 
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Mickyjaystoned said:
AmeriKKKa is a Brutal dictatorship so why don't your politicians attack there own people??

Oh yeah thats what 9/11 was, silly me.

I guess your right then, N.Korea next eh??

The mindlessness of that post isn't worth acknowledging any further after I finish this sentence.
 
Conflict said:
According to Fact... Saddam Hussein was brutal dictator... he killed ... what.... several thousand people to proliferate his will....

According to Fact.... George Walker Bush is a brutal dictator.... he killed....
what.... several thousand people to proliferate his will....

Your comparison of a mountain to a molehill shreds your credibility.


Conflict said:
Not to mention all the deaths of the cold war (quiet war) of attrition that has not yet ended... racking up over hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.... concering the issue of "politics" in general. All by the hand of a Hawkish legacy who has yet to substantiate one aspect of his alarmist tactics... save the fact that he was attacked because of his fathers liberal and global policy.

Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?


Conflict said:
People may wonder why I call myself a centrist.... That's because people don't die by the political agenda of a centrist. Life is pristine to some of us. There is no political agenda that can justify the concept of a "pawn".

You're far from a centrist and your statements above prove this. Of course life is precious but is it wrong to sacrifice the life of one to save the lives of many?
 
Conflict said:
What is the definition of a dictator... our esteemed noncommisssioned officer?

Define dictation for me.

Dictation = The act or process of dictating material to another for transcription.
 
Conflict said:
According to Fact... Saddam Hussein was brutal dictator... he killed ... what.... several thousand people to proliferate his will....

According to Fact.... George Walker Bush is a brutal dictator.... he killed....
what.... several thousand people to proliferate his will....

Not to mention all the deaths of the cold war (quiet war) of attrition that has not yet ended... racking up over hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.... concering the issue of "politics" in general. All by the hand of a Hawkish legacy who has yet to substantiate one aspect of his alarmist tactics... save the fact that he was attacked because of his fathers liberal and global policy.

People may wonder why I call myself a centrist.... That's because people don't die by the political agenda of a centrist. Life is pristine to some of us. There is no political agenda that can justify the concept of a "pawn".

"Centrist?" And here I was thinking you were a just a "paranoid drama queen conspiracist."

The problem with the general American is that they are so naive that they think they have it anywhere near as bad as the rest of the world. Anytime a President has been bestowed war time powers, he becomes a "dictator." Everytime something necessary is done or a law comes down that they don't approve of, their "civil liberties" are being destroyed and we are living in a "fascist" state. The dramatics are pathetic.

...and by the way...if life was so "pristine" to you....then you would care about what Iraqis went through under Saddam and you would have supported his removal and current efforts to protect them as they create the very thing that the Middle East needs to achieve in order to safe guard our securities against a long-term regional threat. With this hypocrisy, you have effectively thrown yourself in with the "Global Left," who despite their self appointed voices of conscience, really only care about themselves and their immediate surroundings. You are true to your name - you are in "conflict."

Ignorant America knows less about the real issues of the Middle East than they do about what it takes to deal with it or the reality of what American foriegn policy even is. Because of this ignorance, they resort to conspiracies and mundane details to express their opinions in order to pretend to themselves that they are not stupid.
 
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GySgt said:
"Centrist?" And here I was thinking you were a just a "paranoid drama queen conspiracist."

The problem with the general American is that they are so naive that they think they have it anywhere near as bad as the rest of the world. Anytime a President has been bestowed war time powers, he becomes a "dictator." Everytime something necessary is done or a law comes down that they don't approve of, their "civil liberties" are being destroyed and we are living in a "fascist" state. The dramatics are pathetic.

Normally a President is bestowed war time powers for a limited duration i.e until hostilities are over. Under the banner 'war on terror' the war will not be over until the world has suffered its last terrorist attack. As we can't foresee exactly when this will be, the President is basically asking for whatever powers he wants until a time of his choosing. Who can decide when the war is over and he has to relinquish these powers - the President or Congress?? If its the President then he is behaving as a dictator. Thousands of Americans have died for our civil liberties yet one man thinks he has the power to curtail them..sounds like a dictatorship to me.

...and by the way...if life was so "pristine" to you....then you would care about what Iraqis went through under Saddam and you would have supported his removal and current efforts to protect them as they create the very thing that the Middle East needs to achieve in order to safe guard our securities against a long-term regional threat. With this hypocrisy, you have effectively thrown yourself in with the "Global Left," who despite their self appointed voices of conscience, really only care about themselves and their immediate surroundings. You are true to your name - you are in "conflict."

Caring about the Iraqis is all very noble but I guess they could probably have done with our help 20 yrs ago when he was gassing them (and the Iranians) or even at the end of the 1st gulf war when we encoraged them to rise up against saddam only to leave them to be slaughtered.
You know Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands about 20yrs ago...sounds like a good reason to me to invade them, what with them being a danger to world security now.:doh

Also what makes you sure a democracy in Iraq would safe guard the US?? Hitler was elected into power you know, as was the new volatile president of Iran...both these elected officials had overwhelming public support despite their undesirable policies.

Ignorant America knows less about the real issues of the Middle East than they do about what it takes to deal with it or the reality of what American foriegn policy even is. Because of this ignorance, they resort to conspiracies and mundane details to express their opinions in order to pretend to themselves that they are not stupid.

You want to talk about the real issues of the middle east?? How about the no.1 problem for the arab population, the Israel/Palestine question. How long has it been without a solution? Another problem I would highlight is Saudi Arabia - the birthplace of Al Queda. Radical preachers, massive private funding for terrorists and an unelected leadership. Maybe we should deal with these problems first before starting more of our own.
 
G-Man said:
You want to talk about the real issues of the middle east?? How about the no.1 problem for the arab population, the Israel/Palestine question. How long has it been without a solution? Another problem I would highlight is Saudi Arabia - the birthplace of Al Queda. Radical preachers, massive private funding for terrorists and an unelected leadership. Maybe we should deal with these problems first before starting more of our own.
The Saudi Arabian problem has been addressed before...here's the lowdown...

There are 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide...Presently, the issue is with extreme fundamentalists and their followers who are from the Middle East...that is a huge number, but small compared to the whole Islamic Ummah(If there are 100 million people who are either terrorists or supporters of terrorists, that is only equal to about 8.3%)...

Now one thing the fundamental mullahs and clerics try to twist is the reasons America is against them...namely, they pull out the "religion" card much like Jesse Jackson does with race...They shout from the highest mountain that the US is attacking them because of their religion...Most Muslims in the world do not agree with this...and they would be correct...

But let me ask you...Do you think that would change if US troops were to attack these fundamentalists in Saudi Arabian places like Mecca and Media?...the two holiest cities in Islam?...

Damn right it would...The mullahs would yell, "See? I told you they're coming because of religion...they're even trying to take away our holy land!"...(Of course they'd be yelling it in Arabic)...:cool:

Obviously, it's wouldn't be our intention, but attacking Saudi Arabia would inspire all of Islam against the US...and personally, I don't think it's a good time to pi$$ 1.2 billion people off...;)
 
G-Man said:
You want to talk about the real issues of the middle east?? How about the no.1 problem for the arab population, the Israel/Palestine question. How long has it been without a solution?

Umm guess what? The Bush administration has done more to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem then any other administration in history, suicide bombings have dropped to virtually nil, the Palestinians have had elections, the Israelis have pulled out of the occupied territories, it's called the Road Map to Peace which is a huge step forward.

Furthermore; taking out Saddam who was paying the families of suicide bombers thousands of dollars, has also helped, it's yet another front in the global war on terror.
 
Yea, what cnredd said.

Taking military action against Saudi Arabia could quite possibly be the most foolish decision in the history of mankind.
 
The Real McCoy said:
Yea, what cnredd said.

Taking military action against Saudi Arabia could quite possibly be the most foolish decision in the history of mankind.

Ya but we don't have to take military action when financial action would be far more devastating, if we build up our nuclear reactor capabilities (France has more reactors by the way) and use those reactors to produce hydrogen fuel cells coupled with making farm subsidies contingent on the basis that farmers produce crops soully for ethanol production, we can end our foriegn oil dependency, then we can lean hard on the Saudi's.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Ya but we don't have to take military action when financial action would be far more devastating, if we build up our nuclear reactor capabilities (France has more reactors by the way) and use those reactors to produce hydrogen fuel cells coupled with making farm subsidies contingent on the basis that farmers produce crops soully for ethanol production, we can end our foriegn oil dependency, then we can lean hard on the Saudi's.

I've always been a proponent of nuclear power and the construction of more nuclear facilities in this country but many liberals in favor of energy reform are the same liberals against such common sense alternatives. As far as hydrogen fuel cells go, the technological advances haven't been made yet to make such a solution efficient enough. Far as I know, ethanol is not a viable alternative, at least at this point.
 
cnredd said:
The Saudi Arabian problem has been addressed before...here's the lowdown...

There are 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide...Presently, the issue is with extreme fundamentalists and their followers who are from the Middle East...that is a huge number, but small compared to the whole Islamic Ummah(If there are 100 million people who are either terrorists or supporters of terrorists, that is only equal to about 8.3%)...

Now one thing the fundamental mullahs and clerics try to twist is the reasons America is against them...namely, they pull out the "religion" card much like Jesse Jackson does with race...They shout from the highest mountain that the US is attacking them because of their religion...Most Muslims in the world do not agree with this...and they would be correct...

But let me ask you...Do you think that would change if US troops were to attack these fundamentalists in Saudi Arabian places like Mecca and Media?...the two holiest cities in Islam?...

Damn right it would...The mullahs would yell, "See? I told you they're coming because of religion...they're even trying to take away our holy land!"...(Of course they'd be yelling it in Arabic)...:cool:

Obviously, it's wouldn't be our intention, but attacking Saudi Arabia would inspire all of Islam against the US...and personally, I don't think it's a good time to pi$$ 1.2 billion people off...;)

Fair point but you basicaly seem to be saying that under no circumstances will be take military action against Saudi Arabia, no matter how big the terrorist problem becomes over there. That doesn't really fit in with the 'war on terror'. Prior to the Iraq war, where were the most terrorists and fundamentalist preachers? The Saudi govt is obviously unable (or unwilling) to tackle the problem so shouldn't we take action? If you say we can't do this because of enraging the muslim population then you seem to be saying we can't 'win' the war on terror because Saudi Arabia will always be a terrrorist safe-haven. In addition, the war on terror is also about removing dictators and promoting democracy/freedom. It seems strange that S Arabia also seems to be immune from these measures. Double standards you think??
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Umm guess what? The Bush administration has done more to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem then any other administration in history, suicide bombings have dropped to virtually nil, the Palestinians have had elections, the Israelis have pulled out of the occupied territories, it's called the Road Map to Peace which is a huge step forward.

Furthermore; taking out Saddam who was paying the families of suicide bombers thousands of dollars, has also helped, it's yet another front in the global war on terror.

Yes Trajan I would agree but looking at what they had to beat it ain't much!! The Palestinians have had elections but it is clear Hamas and others such groups control the land. The Israelis have NOT pulled out of the occupied terrorities, they have pulled out of the Gaza strip only. The so called 'road map' has been rendered obsolete because the Israelis wall has encrouched into vast areas of land regarded as Palestine. They also have no intention of giving up Jerusalem so the status quo will remain.

As regards Saddam, he gave money to the families of suicide bombers not as a reward but as a form of 'compensation' for the Israeli bulldozers demolishing family members home's. Personally, I don't think he was right to do so but then the Israeli's have no right to demolish family members homes - if I committed a serious crime in the US I could expect to face punishent, I would not expect to see my parents/brothers homes destroyed. This type of culpability is illegal under international law. I would suggest both sides were in the wrong but no action has been taken against Israel to stop this happening again.
 
G-Man said:
You want to talk about the real issues of the middle east?? How about the no.1 problem for the arab population, the Israel/Palestine question. How long has it been without a solution? Another problem I would highlight is Saudi Arabia - the birthplace of Al Queda. Radical preachers, massive private funding for terrorists and an unelected leadership. Maybe we should deal with these problems first before starting more of our own.


C'mon....let's mix knowledge with common sense here....



A man named Sayyid Qutb was an Egyptian intellectual, author, and Islamist associated with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. He is best known for his theoretical work on redefining the role of Islamic fundamentalism in social and political change. He is known as the father of modern-day Radical Islam. His extensive Quranic commentary Fi zilal al-Qur'an has contributed significantly to modern perceptions of Islamic concepts such as jihad, jahiliyyah, and umma. He was accused of plotting to overthrow the state of Egypt and executed by hanging in 1966 by Egypt.

Qutb's brother, Muhammad Qutb, moved to Saudi Arabia where he became a professor of Islamic Studies. The influence of Qutb and his work extends across the whole spectrum of Islamism and is seen across the Middle East. One of Muhammad Qutb's students and an ardent follower was Ayman Zawahiri, who later became the mentor of Osama bin Laden. His teachings has indeed been deep rooted in Saudi Arabia and has been adopted by the "House of Saud," the true lords of terror, as a means to oppress and control their people. (I find their current efforts of running around the Saudi desert chasing down their own fundamentals as poetic justice.) America's guilt in this is that, as long as the oil flowed, we have traditionally looked the other way while they have used us as a scapegoat for everyone of their self-inflicted failures. (So much for pascifists and the global left preaching to us that we should mind our own business.) The hard truth is that as long as our inerests are tied to Saudi oil, we are sworn to protect these bazaars of terror and we deal with cynical old men who know how to soothe our diplomats. Oil smeared our vision and we concentrated on the self-destructive Arab states as "sovereign" nations despite its treatment of their people. The accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunities, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders to remain in power. Their misdirected blame is on Israel and the U.S., but the "House of Saud" are to blame for all of the religious perversions that has run amok in the Middle East and are guilty of every murder inflicted by Islamist extremists. These crimes are not just simply the act of a cluster of terrorists, but a reflection of the failure of the entire Middle Eastern Islamist world. Sayyid Qutb is recognized for his application of Islamic ideology to current social and political problems, such as Westernization, modernization, and political reform. Qutb's work also expanded many themes now common in Western discourses on Islamism, including the theory of inevitable ideological conflict between "Islam and the West" - the notion of a transnational umma, and the comprehensive application of jihad in various spiritual, political, and social contexts. His teachings "enlighten" the futureless youth in the Middle East that terrorism is the only route left to them to effectively change political, social, and religious forms.

Samuel Huntington's "A Clash of Civilizations," suggests that a war between the West and Islam is inevitable; some would argue that the wars with Afghanistan and Iraq were the first battles of just such a war. Acceptance of this theory challenges the ability of mankind to alter the nature of conflict and achieve a long-lasting period of peace and prosperity. The U.S. is now at a crossroads; failure to effectively counter the catalyzing effects of Radical Islam will prove Huntington correct and lead decreased stability, decreased economic growth, and increased conflict. Conversely, effectively countering this threat now will have worldwide, beneficial effects for generations to come. It is time to prove Huntington wrong.

Attacking Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Muhammed's Islam, would be a disasterous mistake. Radical Muslims account for between 1% to 20% of Islam (between 12 and 150 million people.) Not all Radical Muslims carry guns or strap bombs to themselves...the majority are the "sea within which the Radical Islamist terrorists swim." This "sea," or disease, encompasses the entire Middle East and is effecting the fringe areas in northern Africa, southern Europe, and western Asia. For much of the Middle East, diplomacy and "indirect" support of the widely majority moderate Muslims (80% to 99% of Islam) is the ingredient to a solution. American Marines, CIA, and other international militaries, agencies, and governments are currently engaging this "direct" and "indirect" effort in Chad, Ethiopia, Sudan, "Palestine," Syria, Lebanon, Bosnia, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

So, with regards to what you said, we are dealing with it, but we are not "creating any problems of our own." We cannot deal with this growing problem without antagonizing the radical element one way or the other, but we can choose to take the wiser tactic. We must endure the lumps that are going to come from this cautiously. Just because our media is focused on what will sell their papers - Iraq - it doesn't mean that nothing else is being done. On the contrary, much is. Iraq gave us an unprecedented opportunity. Never before in the Arab world have a country's citizens been permitted to vote on the laws that would govern them. Even if Iraq must endure further blood shed, this is a historic moment in the Middle East. One that will prove to be a turning point for the Arab and Persian future and one that will be a historical era for our future security. Iraq and Afghanistan must be seen as a success to the Muslim world. The problems with the Israeli/Palistinian conflict is that the radical element among Palestinians are determined to murder and destroy no matter what we do and the Iranian government has encouraged it. Much like the Palistinians, the Radical element amongst Arabs are determined to hate us and their "martyrs" are determined to achieve "Allah's" will on earth. We must give direct and indirect support wherever we can to change this ideology and perception that we are at war with Islam. It is far easier for Muslim governments and populations to rid themselves of this Radical element if the terrorists continue to be on the losing side in all corners. After all, the only thing that can ultimately fix the Muslim world is Mulsims. We are seeing this. Islam is in conflict for an identity and we must do all that we can to ensure that they ultimately wind up on the right path, just like every major religion in history has had to do. Attacking Saudi Arabia would be counter productive to this effort.
 
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