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Is being gay a choice?

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Yea, I don't get why he attacked "evolutionists." I am not a genetics major, and I am not even a credible authority, but the way I thought it worked was as follows:

Each parent, following Meiosis, creates gametes. Each parent has a haploid gamete, which means it has half the number of normal chromosomes. One usually has 23 and the other usually has 23. When they come together they form a diploid zygote which should have 46 chromosomes. The homologus chromosomes once again come together as pairs.

In Trisomy 21, one parent gives an extra chromosom in its gamete. However, with identical twins, the one zygote splits into two genetically identical organisms. Shouldn't they both have the extra chromosome if they are identical?


Maybe homosexuality has to do with some type of on/off event during transcription/translation. That usually is responsible for a lot of genetic problems. External sources can cause that. If you don't make the right protein due to some mutation or external force that inhibits transcription, you can end up having problems.

In cancer, for example, you can turn on/off certain sequences of genetic code by a variety of means. If you turn off tumor supressors, you can stop what prevents tumors from forming. This is regulated by a specific protein incorporated into the genetic code that is in turn read by tRNA. External mutations, chemicals, stuff like that can directly alter the DNA as well so that the proteins are messed up due to the genetic screw up in the first place.

Now, in the case of Carcinogens, they frequently mutate the genetic code preventing proper gene expression. I don't know if homosexuality is anything like that. Altering a gene that controlls sexual expression or something by prevent a certain protein from being fabricated, which in turn would alter the phenotype.
 
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dthmstr254 said:
to date, the only working cure for homosexuality is actually found in churches. I have seen it work before. it's called counseling, and the chance of survival is 100% with a 100% chance of recovery if one is to work at it.since counseling doesn't work for genetic disorders that are truly genetic, homosexuality is not genetic.
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Yeah I remember several years back there was a show on Dateline or one of those news shows about homosexuals that have, "found God," become hetero, and enjoyed their lives better. However, I am still not convinced that homosexuality is not a genetic thing. Do you have any proof that refutes that assertion? Besides, who knows, maybe God intended for them to be that way. The Bible is very vague about homosexuality.
 
sissy-boy said:

Wrong again. Alcoholism is something that I know a LOT about first as a recovering addict and alcoholic and from my own counsil of those with the disease of addiction. It is genetic and the gene HAS been isolated and studied. It can skip generations but it has all the same characteristics as any disease and if left untreated is terminal.
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care to cite your sources??? I have yet to see a single source from you guys. here is mine:

Alcoholism is a dependency on alcohol characterized by craving (a strong need to drink), loss of control (being unable to stop drinking despite a desire to do so), physical dependence and withdrawal symptoms, and tolerance (increasing difficulty of becoming drunk).


It should be noted that the American Psychiatric Association no longer recognizes the existence of "alcoholism" as a diagnostic category. With the publication of the DSM-III in 1980, the earlier diagnostic category of alcoholism was replaced by two separate syndromes, that of alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse. Although the word "alcoholism" survives in popular usage and in the literature of certain groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous, the American medical community no longer recognizes the existence of the diagnostic category alcoholism, and instead only recognizes the diagnostic categories alcohol dependence disorder and alcohol abuse disorder. [1] The World Health Organization also dropped the diagnostic category "alcoholism" in 1979, replacing it with the diagnostic categories "alcohol depenence" and "harmful use" (ICD-9, ICD-10). [2]
Although acceptance of the "American Disease Model" of alcoholism is not entirely universal, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have all classified alcoholism as a disease.
It is actually more accurate to say that the American Psychiatric Association recognizes alcohol abuse disorder and alcohol dependence disorder as two separate substance related disorders. The idea that alcoholism is a disease is very much more in congruence with the tenets of AA's "Big Book" than the consensus of the scientific community.
In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: "Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."
It must be born in mind that the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence is an organization founded by AA member Marty Mann in order to promote AA's views of alcohol an alcoholism, rather than to further scientific research.
Essentially, the causes for alcohol abuse and dependence cannot be easily explained, but the long-standing, unscientific prejudice that alcoholism is the result of moral or ethical weakness on the part of the sufferer has been largely altered, as a recent poll showed that 90% of Americans currently believe that alcoholism is, in fact, a disease.
Today, alcohol abuse and alcoholism are a major public health problem in North America, costing that region's inhabitants US$170 billion annually. Alcoholism is a life-threatening problem that often ends in death, particularly through liver, pancreatic, or kidney disease, internal bleeding, brain deterioration, alcohol poisoning and suicide. Alcohol consumption by a pregnant mother can also lead to fetal alcohol syndrome in the unborn child, an uncurable and damaging illness.
Additionally, alcoholism is a major contributing factor for head injuries, motor vehicle accidents (MVA), violence and assaults, as well as a leading cause of neurological and other medical problems ( cirrhosis, etc.).
Of the two thirds of the North American population who consume alcohol, 10% are alcoholics, and 6% consume more than half of all alcohol.
Stereotypes of alcoholics are often found in fiction and popular culture: for example the "town drunk," or the stereotype of Russians and the Irish as alcoholics. In modern times, the recovery movement has led to more realistic portraits of alcoholics and their problems, such as in Charles R. Jackson's The Lost Weekend, Robert Clark Young's One of the Guys, or the films Days of Wine and Roses and My Name is Bill W.
Alcohol dependence can be harder to break and significantly more damaging than dependence on most other addictive substances. The physical symptoms when withdrawing from alcohol are seen to be equal in severity to those experienced during withdrawal from heroin.
Long-term abusers of alcoholic beverages can suffer delirium tremens.
 
dthmstr254 said:
because, like al evolutionists, people who think that homosexuality is genetic gloss over the facts with misleading and often completely false ideas;
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Well, it certainly shouldnt surprise anyone that you rail against evolution...in the words of Colbert:

I called it​

and when their opponents show scientific disproof of their theory, they either ignore it or scream "it can't be, I won't let it be."
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I do believe you have us confused with "your people"

there is too much factual evidence that disproves the genetic theory of homosexuality. and that is a fact.
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since it is so much a fact, please point to or link to studies that will back up your fantasies.

chromosomal disorders in identical twins effect both sides, and change the genetic maps of both, giving them all the symptoms of down's syndrome or whatever other disorder they have.
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I would point you to this site...consider your fantasy debunked...

http://www.wolfson.qmul.ac.uk/ndscr/

and anyways, since they have "found the gene" as they put it, and "switched" homosexuality off and on in a fruit fly, why can't they do the same in humans?
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I wouldnt expect you to know or care to recognize this, but the human genome is much more complex. More money, as it should be, is being spent on isolating genes that cause illness. Eventually, they will get to it and your candyland dreams will be shattered.

why is there no gene therapy for homosexuality?
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For the same reasons there is no gene therapy for being blonde or having blue eyes. It is not a genetic disorder.

I'll tell you why, because the science is false
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Yeah, and the moon landing happened on a sound stage.

and if they introduce gene therapy for a gene that doesn't exist, they will most likely be sued because the gene therapy doesn't work.
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And the fact that we dont make therapies for occurrences that arent genetic disorders.

to date, the only working cure for homosexuality is actually found in churches. I have seen it work before. it's called counseling, and the chance of survival is 100% with a 100% chance of recovery if one is to work at it.since counseling doesn't work for genetic disorders that are truly genetic, homosexuality is not genetic.
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And why am I now surprised by this. This garbage about conversion therapy working is completely absurd. It is founded on total lies and deception. There is no study out there by a reputable institution that will support the success of conversion therapy. In fact, the statistic sits right around 30% success for the first year and a significant decline in the number over the next 3 years following the conclusion of therapy. The final statistic sits at less than 2.8% success rate at the close of 4 years. Whats more shocking is that of that 2.8%, close to one third are only included because they committed suicide before reverting to their inherent lifestyle. You must be so proud of such shining evidence to promote your "cure". While I am sure you cant show evidence to support your outlandish claims, I am happy to support my facts.

http://www.iglss.org/media/files/Angles_41.pdf

http://www.iglss.org/pubs/angles/angels_4-1_p3.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm

http://www.narth.com/docs/conversiontherapy.html

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8543982/

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7445/E287

Shall I continue, or do you have enough for now?
 
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sissy-boy said:
Wrong again. Alcoholism is something that I know a LOT about first as a recovering addict and alcoholic and from my own counsil of those with the disease of addiction. It is genetic and the gene HAS been isolated and studied. It can skip generations but it has all the same characteristics as any disease and if left untreated is terminal.
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Be careful about your broad statements. Alcoholism itself is not genetic, a predisposition toward it is.
 
jallman said:
Yeah, and the moon landing happened on a sound stage.
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Wait, wait, wait....hold on a second....you mean we DIDNT go to the moon????:2razz:
 
dthmstr254 said:
and you people are supposed to be presenting a united front??? you guys conflict with eachother. first TU says that if one chromosome splits then its issues are displayed in both twins.
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I said that during meiosis, when gametes are being formed, the homologuous chromosome pairs split. They then reform when zygotes are formed. Each parent provides to the Zygote a haploid set of chromosomes. I read that the when the zygote splits into two identical units, each having the same genetical makeup, identical twins are formed. I said I am not sure, because I don't know much about genetics or identical twins, but I thougth one parent would have to give the zygote one extra chromosome, so instead of giving the zygote 23, it would give 24. I said I don't know what would happen to relate this to trisomy 21 in identical clones. I don't know much about twins.


I would like to know how it works that one could get it and one couldn't, but I don't. I am reading his sources now, though. It's interesting.

In 95% of cases the error occurs during meiosis, the process leading to formation of the gametes, the egg and sperm. In about 90% of these the error occurs in the mother during her development as a foetus. The 8% of paternal errors occur during spermatogenesis. In a few cases the error will occur after conception of the child as a mitotic non-disjunction and some of these will be mosaic for normal and abnormal cells.

Twinning occurs at a rate of about 1.2% in pregnancies in the NDSCR, of which pairs where both have trisomy 21 represent about one sixth. We cannot presume these are identical (monozygous), as one DS pair are of unlike sex.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6461252&dopt=Abstract


Monozygotic twins discordant for trisomy 21.

Rogers JG, Voullaire L, Gold H.

Monochorionic twins were phenotypically discordant for Down syndrome. Chromosome analysis of lymphocytes showed both to be mosaics. Fibroblast chromosome analysis showed that one twin was 46,XY and the other 47,XY, +21. Blood mosaicism appears to have resulted from placental anastomoses. The twins are presumed to be monozygotic on the basis of placentation, identical blood groups, HLA haplotypes, and serum proteins. We offer some speculation on the manner of occurrence of this rare event.

Publication Types:

* Case Reports


PMID: 6461252 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
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dthmstr254 said:


care to cite your sources??? I have yet to see a single source from you guys. here is mine:

Alcoholism is a dependency on alcohol characterized by craving (a strong need to drink), loss of control (being unable to stop drinking despite a desire to do so), physical dependence and withdrawal symptoms, and tolerance (increasing difficulty of becoming drunk).


It should be noted that the American Psychiatric Association no longer recognizes the existence of "alcoholism" as a diagnostic category. With the publication of the DSM-III in 1980, the earlier diagnostic category of alcoholism was replaced by two separate syndromes, that of alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse. Although the word "alcoholism" survives in popular usage and in the literature of certain groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous, the American medical community no longer recognizes the existence of the diagnostic category alcoholism, and instead only recognizes the diagnostic categories alcohol dependence disorder and alcohol abuse disorder. [1] The World Health Organization also dropped the diagnostic category "alcoholism" in 1979, replacing it with the diagnostic categories "alcohol depenence" and "harmful use" (ICD-9, ICD-10). [2]
Although acceptance of the "American Disease Model" of alcoholism is not entirely universal, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have all classified alcoholism as a disease.
It is actually more accurate to say that the American Psychiatric Association recognizes alcohol abuse disorder and alcohol dependence disorder as two separate substance related disorders. The idea that alcoholism is a disease is very much more in congruence with the tenets of AA's "Big Book" than the consensus of the scientific community.
In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: "Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."
It must be born in mind that the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence is an organization founded by AA member Marty Mann in order to promote AA's views of alcohol an alcoholism, rather than to further scientific research.
Essentially, the causes for alcohol abuse and dependence cannot be easily explained, but the long-standing, unscientific prejudice that alcoholism is the result of moral or ethical weakness on the part of the sufferer has been largely altered, as a recent poll showed that 90% of Americans currently believe that alcoholism is, in fact, a disease.
Today, alcohol abuse and alcoholism are a major public health problem in North America, costing that region's inhabitants US$170 billion annually. Alcoholism is a life-threatening problem that often ends in death, particularly through liver, pancreatic, or kidney disease, internal bleeding, brain deterioration, alcohol poisoning and suicide. Alcohol consumption by a pregnant mother can also lead to fetal alcohol syndrome in the unborn child, an uncurable and damaging illness.
Additionally, alcoholism is a major contributing factor for head injuries, motor vehicle accidents (MVA), violence and assaults, as well as a leading cause of neurological and other medical problems ( cirrhosis, etc.).
Of the two thirds of the North American population who consume alcohol, 10% are alcoholics, and 6% consume more than half of all alcohol.
Stereotypes of alcoholics are often found in fiction and popular culture: for example the "town drunk," or the stereotype of Russians and the Irish as alcoholics. In modern times, the recovery movement has led to more realistic portraits of alcoholics and their problems, such as in Charles R. Jackson's The Lost Weekend, Robert Clark Young's One of the Guys, or the films Days of Wine and Roses and My Name is Bill W.
Alcohol dependence can be harder to break and significantly more damaging than dependence on most other addictive substances. The physical symptoms when withdrawing from alcohol are seen to be equal in severity to those experienced during withdrawal from heroin.
Long-term abusers of alcoholic beverages can suffer delirium tremens.
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Wow that must be so embarrasing for you. Read your own sources before being sure they support your stance. :rofl
 
Kelzie said:
Wow that must be so embarrasing for you. Read your own sources before being sure they support your stance. :rofl
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I think we can consider this case pretty much closed on that note. Good job Kelzie!!!

:bravo: way to :spank: the opponent with his own source!!!

Go kelzie, its your birthday, not for real real, just for play play.

:2party:
 
Kelzie said:
Wow that must be so embarrasing for you. Read your own sources before being sure they support your stance. :rofl
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the ONLY genetics involved are those that effect the personality of a person. notice that people who are prone to alchoholism are usually prone to many other addictions as well. other than that, there are no genetics involved.
 
dthmstr254 said:
then you are saying that the chance of getting alchoholism has to do with the personality genes??? is that what you are getting at??? personality genes only decide the personality for the first few years, for the most part. what about those who get addicted after the age of 30? surely they weren't effected by it. why does alchoholism seem to be completely random?? why do people with no family history of it suddenly fall prey to it? all these questions are left unanswered by the scientific community.
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But in MOST cases, even the alcoholic who doesn't start drinking until later in life can clearly have the disease of addiction. But I don't think that it is PURELY genetic. There are ALWAYS exceptions, and there are always exceptions to someone who is born gay. I know several men and women who have been straight for a while and then CHOOSE same sex. It's a bit more complex than JSUT genetics. But I think the largest portion is genetic. But alcoholism is NOT 'random' in any way that I've seen. There is almost always a pretty good explanation.
 
Kelzie said:
Wow that must be so embarrasing for you. Read your own sources before being sure they support your stance. :rofl
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THANK YOU! Great post. I'm glad you got someone who spoke about the disease aspect, as it is overlooked a lot of the time.

I was just talking to a friend yesterday about all of the horrible side-effects of alcohol and how ridiculous we both thought it was for alcohol to be LEGAL, but marijuana to be illegal when the 2 drugs are not even comparable when we look at the effects on the human body. People die constantly from alcohol and are sent to ERs with alcohol poisoning and others will liver disease, but little ill-effects from marijuana. A new study even suggests that a chemical in THC causes brain GROWTH. It just seems so backwards for marijuana to be so ostracized and alcohol to even be ADVERTISED.

Strange.
 
dthmstr254 said:
the ONLY genetics involved are those that effect the personality of a person. notice that people who are prone to alchoholism are usually prone to many other addictions as well. other than that, there are no genetics involved.
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Are you trying to say that you know better than the entire medical community, the AMA and the tens of thousands of recovery centers and alcoholism institutions across the country? If so, PROVE IT. And attempt to show your position with FACT -- so far all you've done is contradicted yourself on just about every argument you've opened up on this issue. Have YOU performed genetic testing for 100 years on alcoholics and cadavers to discover this?? Your stubbornness is ASTOUNDING. Alcoholics ARE prone to other diseases of addiction because they all suffer from the same one: The disease of ADDICTION.

Are you really THAT THICK?!

Now, even *I* have become embarassed for you.

And it's HILARIOUS that the quotation you used said EXACTLY what I said within it!! hahhaaa!! It would be like if someone told you that you were silly and then you posted an article on the defintion of 'silly'....

Are you just being SILLY??
 
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sissy-boy said:

And 100% of 'dthmstr' is missing at least 60% of his brain and 41% is in jail.
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Mod Note

Let's keep the personal attacks out of this thread. thanks!

/Mod Note
 
sissy-boy said:

Wrong again. Alcoholism is something that I know a LOT about first as a recovering addict and alcoholic and from my own counsil of those with the disease of addiction. It is genetic and the gene HAS been isolated and studied. It can skip generations but it has all the same characteristics as any disease and if left untreated is terminal.
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Congratulations. I have been in control of my addiction for around 10 years. I know about losing what should have been the best years of my life to vodka. And I also know what having an addictive personality is like. Genetics...I suppose so. But it does take personal responsibility to quit and mean it. My life has turned out great since I got my drinking under control. I hope yours has too, and continues to be a good life.

Peace :smile:
 
dthmstr254 said:
the ONLY genetics involved are those that effect the personality of a person. notice that people who are prone to alchoholism are usually prone to many other addictions as well. other than that, there are no genetics involved.
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So...let me get this straight. You've gone from saying that genetics do not affect a behavior (homosexuality) to saying that genetics affect behavior (personality of alcoholics). Right. Gotcha. As long as we're clear where you stand.:roll:
 
Kelzie said:
So...let me get this straight. You've gone from saying that genetics do not affect a behavior (homosexuality) to saying that genetics affect behavior (personality of alcoholics). Right. Gotcha. As long as we're clear where you stand.:roll:
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I think that post stopped him dead in his tracks!!

In fact I'd be surprised if he even came back to debate in the entire forum.
 
hiker said:
Congratulations. I have been in control of my addiction for around 10 years. I know about losing what should have been the best years of my life to vodka. And I also know what having an addictive personality is like. Genetics...I suppose so. But it does take personal responsibility to quit and mean it. My life has turned out great since I got my drinking under control. I hope yours has too, and continues to be a good life.

Peace :smile:
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Good for you! ;>)

It has been 9 for me. It's been quite easy after the first year. Things are SO much better now. If it weren't for the friends and family I have I never would have done it.
 
sissy-boy said:

I think that post stopped him dead in his tracks!!

In fact I'd be surprised if he even came back to debate in the entire forum.
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Stranger things have happened but...we agree twice in one week. He has contradicted himself over and over and had his claims were shot down with real facts. Way to go EVERYONE! That was a very oragnized defense from a very motley crew. :2wave:
 
jallman said:
Stranger things have happened but...we agree twice in one week. He has contradicted himself over and over and had his claims were shot down with real facts. Way to go EVERYONE! That was a very oragnized defense from a very motley crew. :2wave:
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I was looking for the 'high five' guy, but this one will work:

:2grouphug
 
sissy-boy said:

I was looking for the 'high five' guy, but this one will work:

:2grouphug
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Strange...I don't remember putting that one up...wonder if vauge's adding smilies behind my back...:shock:
 
If you think that being gay is a choice, then ask yourself this question. When did you decide to become straight?
 
hipsterdufus said:
If you think that being gay is a choice, then ask yourself this question. When did you decide to become straight?
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Soon as I saw my first fireman. Hot damn. How can anyone chose otherwise? :lol:

Get it? Hot? Fireman??? Ahh...I'm a riot. And not the french kind either.:cool:
 
Kelzie said:
Soon as I saw my first fireman. Hot damn. How can anyone chose otherwise? :lol:

Get it? Hot? Fireman??? Ahh...I'm a riot. And not the french kind either.:cool:
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I remember it well. It was my 2nd grade teacher. She smelled beautiful. Something strange was happening inside me. .. something strange, yet wonderful.

Oh God! I'm sounding like a Bill O'Reilly Falafel story! :mrgreen:
 
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