Lachean

You regard my estimation as misguided, and then your description matches my estimation. I regard it as foolish because there is nothing to be proud of in circumstances of birth.

Please, spare me; every group and gender has been discriminated against in the past. You're talking to a minority who still faces discrimination in his daily life, and does not find the need to parade about it, or pretend to be proud of how/where I was born.

I'm all for a party, and a few drinks, but it doesn't have to hold up traffic either. A celebration in a rented out park would receive just as much publicity for those wishing to demonstrate their solidarity.

__________________
"Men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity--to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality. " - Ayn Rand

Bodhisattva

So lets see here.
You interject into my conversation with another and offer nothing but insultive tripe.
I try talking to you a bit
You are relentless in with your trollish behavior in trying to insult me
I then slam you around a bit for fun.
You conclude that it is I that is unable to maintain "adult debate" with people that I dislike?

Interesting...

Well, what is the topic that you wish to debate and lets debate it adult-like.
At the first indication that you are doing what you always seem to do, and that is be insultive, then the adult-like debate is over though.

How does that sound?

June is Gay Pride Month:

I think that Gay Pride is hypocritical when flaunted in public.
White Pride would not be condoned. Same with Black Power.
Why does Gay Pride get a free pass?

Also, most gay people that I know do not participate in Parades or in the Movement .
They just live their lives and conveyed to me that they felt that the Gay Pride Movement hurt them more than helped them.

That is just what I heard from most of them. Nothing more nothing less.

So... I am interested in hearing your thoughts.
Would you please share so that we can continue this conversation?

Thanks.

__________________

1069

Why do you equate "white pride" and "gay pride" with "black power"?
The correlating movement would be not black "power" but black pride, which is indeed condoned.

Oppressed minorities like blacks and gays have every right to push for just and equal treatment by the privileged majority- ie, whites-, which they still do not receive, and to call attention to social inequities. Until they are treated equally, it is perfectly appropriate that these movements keep going strong.

Ah, yes; your infamous bevy of "gay friends".
Forgive me if I'm a wee bit skeptical.

__________________
Lightdemon: "Is 10 going to outer space or something?"
Jerry: "...yes, 10 is going to outerspace."

Bodhisattva

So, I will now write you off as somebody incapable of what Urethra Franklin is so desparately seeking to find,
and that is people capable of "Adult Debate".


...Unless that is, you care to try again?

Urethra Franklin

You're improving bod. This is much more interesting. Though it's a shame you couldn't actually respond to 1069's very good post instead of just throwing out insults, yet again.

What is flaunting? I hold my boyfriend's hand in the street every day without a second thought. Am I flaunting heterosexuality? One day of the year gay people take advantage of their safety in numbers to openly kiss, hold hands, celebrate their sexuality, and to you that's flaunting? Let us not forget bod, that unlike you and I, many of them would be insulted, aggressed and in some countries of the world, killed for doing so on a "normal" day. My colleague just asked me what I did with my boyfriend last night, and told me about her evening out with her husband. Nothing unusual about that, but substitute the word 'husband' for 'girlfriend' and to some bigots that's flaunting lesbianism. That's why the fight for gay rights is not yet over and Gay Pride still has an important place in the calendar for many gay, bi, AND straight people who believe in social justice.

Black power was a different concept to black pride. Given the racism that exists in the world, and as the partner of an African I have seen it first hand, I understand black pride just as I understand gay pride: pride in what you are in the face of adversity, prejudice and an oppressive majority which includes some bigots, albeit a minority, who would devalue you for simply being what you are. Hence no need for straight pride. No need for white pride in the US or Europe, but probably justifiable in a society like today's Zimbabwe perhaps? The need for black pride or gay pride should diminish when we achieve full integration and acceptance, but sadly bod, both in your country and mine, we are far from that.

Your gay friends (sic) who disapprove of Gay Pride: are they happy to accept the advantages and freedoms that have been won for them by the brave efforts of gay activists that went before them? Or was Stonewall merely unneessary flaunting? Should brave people like Denis Lemon (former editor of the UK newspaper "Gay News") not have stood up in court to defend freedom of speech lest some sensitive fundamentalist christian be offended that he may be falunting his sexuality? It would be kind of hypocritical of me to say that feminism was unecessary for example, when I take full advantage of being a professional working woman, access free contraception which gives me my sexual liberty, have charge of my own financial affairs etc. If I choose not to take part in certain "wimmin's" events, I don't criticize them either. Are your gay friends worried that the sight of a few drag queens is going to make some people think that all gay men cross dress for example? Such closed minded people are going to think that anyway, just as some people automatically assume I'm a crack whore when they see me on the arm of a black man. I don't see that their parade does any harm, and in any case, what's wrong with a few drag queens? Nothing.

Bod, I simply don't see the harm in having a party to celebrate how far society's come, and to remind us that there is still a lot of injustice to eliminate in this world. I cannot go along with this "shut up and be grateful 'coz it's worse in Afghanistan" attitude whether it be directed at gays, women, blacks, whatever minority. Even when great strides are being made, we should never get complacent about injustice.

Now bod, I'm interested in just how many gay friends you actually have? How did you meet them and what are the common interests, besides a dislike of gay pride parades, that maintain your friendships??

__________________
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=-pW87BM_3fw

Bodhisattva

Black Power is a movement among Black people throughout the world, especially those in the United States. Most prominent in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the movement emphasized racial pride and the creation of black political and cultural institutions to nurture and promote black collective interests, advance black values, and secure black autonomy.

Black Power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black pride is a slogan used primarily in the United States to raise awareness for a black racial identity.

The slogan has been used by African Americans (especially of sub-Saharan African origin) to denote a feeling of self-respect, celebrating one's heritage, and being proud of one's personal worth. Black pride as a national movement is closely linked with the developments of the American Civil Rights Movement, during which noted figures such as Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, A. Philip Randolph, Stokely Carmichael, and others protested the conditions of the United States' segregated society, and lobbied for better treatment for people of all races

Black pride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These two terms are almost interchangeable. Black Power is seen as more militant perhaps, with Stokely Carmichael as a leader of the splinter movement and Malolm X as the poster boy of the future, but the goals are almost identicle.

The Black Power movement grew out of the CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT that had steadily gained momentum through the 1950s and 1960s. The Black Power movement instilled a sense of racial pride and self-esteem in blacks. Blacks were told that it was up to them to improve their lives.

Black Power Movement

Black Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Parade Dates

2008 Black Gay Pride Parade Dates

Now that is where we need to hang out!


-------------------------------------------------


I answered Tens like that to make a point that I would not discuss this issue with anybody that was not interested in maintaining an adult conversation.

You end your nice post with what, an insinuation that I am a liar? Is that acting like an adult to you?

I never said that our common interests were a dislike of the gay pride parades. I said that many of them saw no point in the parade and that many of them expressed disinterest in the parade and felt that it possibly hurt their strive for equality more than it helped them. Please keep things in context if possible. Thanks.

What am I supposed to do to prove to you that I have had lots of gay friends so that we can continue this discussion balanced instead of you and Ten making childish comments about me being a liar? Why should I even have to? I would think that since you are the one that attacks me, it should be I that demands proof from you before I listen to any more of you bull**** insinuations about me lying.

Should I talk about living in Laguna Beach in S. Cal, known for being a "gay" area and working with gays in restaurants and hanging with them and other gays after work in both gay and regular bars talking about life, or at a Halloween work party when four of the guys dressed in drag and sat in my lap trying to embarrass me only to later compliment me on being able to have fun with it, or living in San Fran and Sonoma County, the hotbed of N. Cal homosexuality and again, working and hanging out with gays and lesbians daily. We had different gay and lesbian couples with kids to our house for dinner and play dates monthly {as we went to their houses too} and would see them and hang out seemingly daily in our small town or 7,000 people at concerts in the town square and at kids music class and at crazy parties as well. I have been around gays and lesbians my entire life... from our friends in gradeschool that wore make-up to the kids in high-school that were teased and or accepted for being open about it.

What do I need to prove to you that I am genuine?

Perhaps you are not familiar with gays and lesbians and you are scared of them? Who knows? Prove your partner is African American. Prove you are a woman. Prove it. Don't show me a picture... prove it. That's what I thought, what is "proof" anyway and how could I ever make you believe me when you seemingly have such mistrust in your heart. I am open, something that Ten could never handle, can you?

All you have done is to troll about and make snotty little comments. I would have let them all go if you had acted like you claimed I should, and that is like an adult. Instead you stayed true to your form and made another snotty little comment. * sigh *

What you do this time will define you for a long time to come, my dear.

Marilyn Monroe

I believe in a sense the so-called underpriviledged, which to me is vastly overstated, like to be underpriviledged at times. They like the attention.

I don't know exactly where you've been living, but white men aren't all that priviledged anymore, I'm thinking it's more black and white women that are. Just my observation, but there are a whole lot of women in areas of power and authority these days. Women pretty much always had authority over the children, so it was women who created the high-powered white men in the first place.

You're statements tend to be generalizations that are ok to say about white men, which is discrimination, but you never go all the way and call it on anybody else. I say, tell it like it is.

Although I have nothing against gays, what I'm noticing is the gay men are acting more and more gay where you can easily spot them. They are all over the TV, and the gay stuff is cutesy at first, but then it starts to grate on my nerves. This is an observation only, not meant to be biased or anything. Gays aren't the only one's that get on my nerves with certain mannerisms, women tend to do it too, not lesbians, heterosexual women. It's the cutesy stuff, and the fake way they talk. Ick, ick, ick! What's with all the low cut tops with the boobs hanging out? Everybody is doing it. First it was the high cut tops that stopped at the naval or way above, now it's all the boob showing. If this isn't throwing your sexuality in my face I don't know what is. I know women have been wearing the low-cut tops for ages and ages, but it's still saying, "hey, I can do this, and I will".

They, they, they. Women also would like some toning down, it's not just white men. Most of the gay rights stuff started in the 80's. This was when they started to get vocal. It takes incredible amounts of time to change societies views on big issues. This happens to be a big issue. I think in 20 yrs. or possibly less, gays will be even steven with everybody else.

I don't agree with this. I don't think it's the "priviledged class" that discriminates the most, I think it's the middle and lower classes that do the most discriminating.

Not sure it's totally sarcastic, but taking rights, not sure how that would work. The only way to get rights in this country is to make it known that you want them, and this is being done. The legislature knows. This is how it will get fixed.

__________________
"It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

Urethra Franklin

I disagree that the terms are interchangable. You are right that "power" suggests more militancy than "pride". You are clutching at straws with your lengthy definitions - why don't you simply look in the dictionary at the very simple definitions of "power" and "pride"? English is not my first language, yet even I can see the difference, and it isn't even that subtle.


Bod, my original comment to you was that you were debasing your own argument with that tired old "some of my best friends are...." crap. People who have to argue along those lines rarely actually have friends of the given group they're claiming to. It wasn't just me that sensed it, 1069 has evidently had the same feeling. Now if you genuinely do have gay friends, go and ask them if they're happy to accept the advances in acceptance they enjoy now because of the pioneering gay pride marches of the 70s. And why are you even bothered if 1069 or I actually believe you or not? This is ONLY the internet. Most of us have lives offline. I think a sense of persepctive is needed here.
Please refer to my above point about them enjoying the fruits of others' bravery.
Chill out before you have a stroke. It's only the internet. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Your prostestations do rather smack of "The lady doth protesteth too much" and no, I'm not convinced you have gay friends, but as I say above, why are you even bothered?
You forgot to mention your 2 years as the cowboy in the Village People.
You don't. Nobody gives a s*** and neither should you. It's irrelevant to the debate.

Bod, you believe what you wish about me, though I would point out your error about my boyfriend. He is African, not African American. I have never claimed he is American. He is Senegalese. You believe or disbelieve that if you wish, along with whatever else about me. It is not relevant to the debate.

No bod, I've raised several points, some of which you've tackled and some of which you've been unable to. Now back to the debate in hand: there are evidently many gay/lesbian/bi/transgendered people who still believe that pride parades play an important role in their ongoing liberation. I see their point of view and consider it reasonable. If your gay friends (sic) disagree they are at liberty to stay away, however when they next check into a double hotel room or apply for a joint mortgage and find that the clerk doesn't bat an eyelid at two men or two women doing so as a couple, they should just remember the bravery of others that got them to that more comfortable, more civilized place.

Bodhisattva

The terms are not "interchangable", and I never said that they were.
I know that I am right that "power" suggests more militancy than "pride".
I am not clutching at straws with my lengthy definitions...
...for the defintions are both not that lengthy and completely accurate.

Also, the terms are not defined by just one word out of the two, but by what the term represents. All you have to do is to look at the simple definitions that I provided in order to see that the terms and movements overlap, to a degree. Also, I am not sure how long, if ever, that you or your partner have lived in America, or to what degree American Civil Rights Movement has affected your lives, but being an American that has studied this subject in depth, I can assure you that the two terms are more closely related than they are not. Ooops, did mentioning that I studied this subject in depth just hurt my credibility with you? Oh darn. LOL!

Seriously... you need to grow up. Mentioning these things just go to background and nothing else. Adding that your boyfriend is from Africa adds to the discussion, just as mentioning my gay friends adds to it, that is, unless you wear that "HYPOCRITE" Badge with Pride? LOL!

Besides, even just when looking at the two words themselves, they are not dissimilar.

pride Audio Help /praɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, prid·ed, prid·ing.
–noun 1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2. the state or feeling of being proud.
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.

pride - Definitions from Dictionary.com

pow·er Audio Help /ˈpaʊər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pou-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.
2. political or national strength: the balance of power in Europe.
3. great or marked ability to do or act; strength; might; force.
4. the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy: power over men's minds.
5. political ascendancy or control in the government of a country, state, etc.: They attained power by overthrowing the legal government.
6. legal ability, capacity, or authority: the power of attorney.
7. delegated authority; authority granted to a person or persons in a particular office or capacity: the powers of the president.
8. a document or written statement conferring legal authority.
9. a person or thing that possesses or exercises authority or influence.
10. a state or nation having international authority or influence: The great powers held an international conference.

power - Definitions from Dictionary.com

One is about personal strength and one is about community strength. That is all. But more importantly, it is what I said above, it is about the term in its entirety.


I wasn't "debasing" anything... I was "adding" to the conversation by "adding" other opinions. Take them or don't, but if you want to be taken seriously, or as an adult, it is paramount that you don't enter into the conversation with snotty childlike comments meant only to insult or disparage the other.

Also, I wasn't "arguing" anything about my friends. I made a comment about opinions that I heard from friends representing that group and you both came along and made snotty comments about not believing me. I don't care at all to be honest. You could die tomorrow and I would think, "oh, that is a shame, could somebody pass me the salt please?"

The issue here is accountability. The reason I don't bother with Ten anymore is because she lies and expects that others do the same. I don't waste my time with people that are disingenuous... there is no point. If you think that I don't have gay friends, that sucks in terms of us being able to communicate openly and honestly. I believe that you have a Senegalese boyfriend. Why wouldn't I? In all honesty, why wouldn't you believe that I have gay friends, for by your "logic" you debased your own argument with, "you were debasing your own argument with that tired old "my boyfriend is ... crap."

Why would you do the exact same thing to me, include your boyfriends race and color into a discussion about Black Pride/Power when I can't (according to you) do the same about gay friends in a Gay Pride discussion?


When did I speak against respecting those that fought before us for the rights that we have today? Get real.
Stop Trolling...


No sweat if you are not convinced. I am not convinced that you are that intelligent yet, but I don't make comments about your lack of evidence and rather flimsy opinions about this topic. Perhaps you should not think in the negative extreme that both you and Ten seem to perpetually dwell in.


You try to hard.


Again, I don't. Try not to think that your opinion is so important for a second. You have a long way to go to prove to me that you are anything other than a Gnat-like Troll that I should simply continue to bat about for fun. LOL!

What Ten could not handle, and perhaps you are as shallow and incapable as she, is being open and honest about subjects so that we can communicate and move forward in understanding together, rather than acting as obstacles in learning.


I know you didn't claim that, I assumed since you were talking about Black Power and Black Pride as if he might know more than me. He is Senegalese.. I am American. For all you know I am African American and those two cuties in my pic to the left are adopted and for all I know your boyfriend is a white colonial descendent and you are trying to insinuate that he is black so that you have more clout.

And more importantly, since it is not relevant to the debate, as you so aptly point out... why the **** did you mention him at all in the first place.


I have been to the Gay Pride Parade in San Fran... one of the biggest in the world. It was great fun. The emotions were genuine and the people were terrific. So... why do you continue to wish to portray me as anything other than open and realistic again? Perhaps you should check in with yourself about how others might simply be more dynamic than you, or at least, than you give them credit for. I am not shallow, and if you care to find out more, you should ask, rather than to assume.

Talk to my gay friends before you start assuming that the few things that I have said here represent everything that they think about the subject, for I could hardly portray all that they have to feel on the matter.

I can tackle any of the borish tripe that you toss my way. I have been talking far above your seemingly limited capacity and only recently have you begun to step up into the adult realm. You still have a long way to go, but you are growing and learning. I will give a little more time to conduct yourself better. Some people just talk the talk... you. I am hoping that you might elevate yourself to where I am.. walking the walk. We will see.

What I do assume it that you are capable, but for some reason you are blinded by an unseen hatred based in fear of accepting that which you don't understand. It is common enough. I simply trust first, and many times get burned, rather than to not trust and never grow. Your Trollish behavior and insultive style is indicative of a fear based persona like a frightened animal that is unsure if it can trust a human trying to feed it or not. I will not hurt you. Do not be afraid wee one. It is safe to come in from the dark thought in which you reside.

Gee, that was fun... talk to you soon!

quatrotritikali

Out medic deployed, talks, is booted

Darren Manzella, 30, who revealed his sexual orientation to his military supervisor in 2006 and was redeployed to Iraq anyway, is discharged this month.

The Army has discharged a decorated medic who was deployed to Iraq despite acknowledging he was gay.

Darren Manzella, 30, said he revealed his sexual orientation to his military supervisor in August 2006, a