Dezaad

Jerry, I don't know where you got the notion that I was claiming that there exists a jewish memorial depicting the *act* of practicing their faith. After all, it wasn't their faith that got them killed, right? It was the fact of their ethnicity. So, I'll not be providing a link as evidence for something I never claimed existed.

I never said that you said that an act had to present in order for any acclimation at all to occur.

However, part of the effect (and purpose) of many Jewish Holocaust memorials is to acclimate populations of people to Jewish people through symbols that represent those people.

This 'gay' Holocaust memorial symbolizes the love that can exist between two men, which is precisely the thing that caused homosexual men to suffer during the Holocaust. This is no different than Jewish memorials that depict symbols of the thing that caused those people to suffer during the Holocaust - Their being Jewish.

Jerry

Again, the gay memorial goes beyond that to then also promote a political agenda, and it is *that* which I object to.

As I have pointed out many times now, you claimed that the memorial doesn't promote an agenda any more than any Jewish memorial does. Therefore, since
the gay memorial seeks to go beyond memorializing the deaths of gay people during the holocaust by also attempting to acclimate the public to the site of the practice of homosexuality, there must be a Jewish memorial seeking to acclimate the public to the practice of the Jewish faith.

Please back up your claim by providing supporting evidence.

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Dezaad

The Jewish memorials often promote a political agenda too (Tolerance and equality under the law).

Yep. I have stood by that in every post I've made.

It is your opinion that the gay memorial goes beyond memorializing the deaths of gay people by symbolizing gay people in a certain way. I do not share that opinion. I think that symbolizing gay people in that way is does no more to acclimate people to gay people (which is the intent) than the Jewish symbols do for Jewish people. Furthermore, there are many many more Jewish monuments. The net effect of all of them is greater than the few gay ones, in my opinion.

My claim that the gay monument does no more to acclimate people to gay people than the Jewish monuments do Jewish people? Sorry, I can't find a study on these monuments and their effects on populations.

Jerry

Please link to a Jewish WW2 memorial that is about torrence and equality under the law.

Yes it is my substantiated, evidenced-with-link opinion; but it also your opinion. Emphasis added, you just said:
You just said that Jewish memorials promote a political agenda just like gay memorials promote a political agenda, so far from disagreeing with my opinion, you share it.

The memorial was of people performing an act, not a mere symbol like a Star of David. Where is the memorial of a rabbi reading the Torah?

Yes, please substantiate your claim with evidence.

In place of a study you could try my often repeated request to link to a WW2 memorial of a Jewish family lighting the menorah, calibrating Hanuka, a Jew praying as the West Wall, or smiler.

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Reading the heated posts here got me curious to see if the memorial really had a provocative design. I was able to find a clip on YouTube. It appears to be a rather dowdy looking brown box, and people passing by can look in and see a film loop of a gay couple kissing in the darkness of the enclosure. The symbolism is fairly straight forward and benign, and I see nothing inflammatory or concupiscent about it. Based on the venom in the arguments I thought there must have been a parade of pornographic statuary in a circle around the Jewish memorial. How more discreet could they be than a box? Maybe a bullet riddled tombstone with the word "gay" stenciled on it?

Given that there were other groups also victimized by Nazi "cleansing" efforts, I don't really see any point in denying other memorials. Most people who died in that war are memorialized somewhere through some affiliated group identity. If anything, people will get a better sense of the scale of the genocide with multiple memorials scattered around Berlin.

But I would also agree though that gays have an ongoing political agenda, but that is only because bias against them is still prevalent. They really couldn't make a memorial about consequence of hatred without reminding people it still exists, especially if someone brings that bias to the monument.

1069

Good post.
Very reasonable and concise.
Like to see em try to argue with it.

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Gipper

I guess all they have to do is elect a black mayor, a gypsy mayor, a communist mayor, and a Jewish mayor.

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Ethereal

Don't forget a dissident mayor as well.

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The Russians already have a few WW2 monuments in Berlin. There are several Jewish Holocaust memorials in Berlin as well, none of which were begun under a Jewish mayor. However, all victims would be legitimate candidates, so what is your point? Are you implying funding is the only proof of legitimacy? That is a naive perspective.

Or perhaps you feel the scale of the monument may outweigh their sacrifice? If you examined the most recent Jewish Holocaust memorial, there are hundreds of boxes. The gay memorial is one box. I would have to say that accounts for scale, for those of you who worry about size.

YamiB.

I was reading through this thread and this statement confused me a bit. How does same-sex marriage getting legalized discriminate against Muslims?

I can't tell if you're trying to make the argument I've heard before that giving homosexuals equal rights will be discriminatory against those who hold conservative religious beliefs since they consider homosexuality sinful. This is of course ridicoulous.

As a strong same-sex marriage supporter on polygamy I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and would like to see it legalized, but that has nothing to do with the issue of legalizing same-sex marriage and is an issue that should be considered on it's own.

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