Monument to homosexual victims of Nazis unveiled - Page 11

Jerry · 06-02-08, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winston53660

I never said anything of the sort.

Yes you did, right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by winston53660

Dang you are all over the map with this comment. Look if you don't like a work of art than don't look at it. Artworks are meant to stand on their own and for you to demand artist do your bidding is nothing but totalitarian.

You're demanding that I do your bidding, which by your own logic you have no right to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winston53660

Your entire argument here has been based on artist representing what you want represented.

I made no demands of the sculptor.

I gave an opinion of the sculpture's motivations and debate ensued.

winston53660 · 06-02-08, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

Yes you did, right here:

You're demanding that I do your bidding, which by your own logic you have no right to do.

I made no demands of the sculptor.

I gave an opinion of the sculpture's motivations and debate ensued.

You presented a false dichotimy is what you did.

Jerry · 06-02-08, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezaad

Oh.

I disagree, any depiction of a mennorah, Torah or Star of David in a Holocaust memorial would cause people to become more accustomed to symbols of Jewish life and thereby sympathetic to Jewish people. This is a good thing, and I am glad of it.

Likewise, a kiss between two men when depicted in art is a symbol of homosexual love. When depicted in art as part of a Holocaust Memorial, it serves to cause people (just as you say) to become more accustomed to and sympathetic toward Homosexual people. This is a good thing and I am glad of it.

You first disagree and then twice agree that public opinion aclimates to immagery.

Do you agree or no?

Jerry · 06-02-08, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winston53660

You presented a false dichotimy is what you did.

I thought you said I was making demands upon the sculpture.....make up your mind please.

Dezaad · 06-03-08, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

You first disagree and then twice agree that public opinion aclimates to immagery.

Do you agree or no?

I didn't disagree that public opinion acclimates to imagery. I disagreed that the imagery must include an act in order to cause the acclimation to occur.

Jerry · 06-03-08, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezaad

I didn't disagree that public opinion acclimates to imagery. I disagreed that the imagery must include an act in order to cause the acclimation to occur.

Well I never claimed that an act had to be present in order for any acclimation of any kind at all to occur

The depiction of a Star of David acclimates the public to the Star of David, not a rabbi praying in public.

Since the gay WW2 memorial depicts and action, not simply a symbol like a triangle, where is the Jewish WW2 memorial depicting an action Jews are performing?

If a symbol is present, a symbol is acclimated to.

If an action is present, and action is acclimated to.

So, where's the Jewish WW2 memorial depicting an action? Where is the WW2 memorial of a rabbi praying? Of a family lighting the menorah? Link please.

Dezaad · 06-04-08, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

Well I never claimed that an act had to be present in order for any acclimation of any kind at all to occur

...

If a symbol is present, a symbol is acclimated to.

...

The highlighted sentence is what I am disagreeing with, because what you've been saying, in so many words, is: "If a symbol is present, a symbol is acclimated to, but acclimation toward the people and their acts that the symbol represents does not occur", as if symbols occur in some sort of cultural vacume.

Quote:

Link Please.

To what? I've already stated before, and I've just done it again in different words, that I don't agree with the notion that an act must be depicted in order for the intent of a monument to be to acclimate people to a set of people and their acts.

Jerry · 06-04-08, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezaad

The highlighted sentence is what I am disagreeing with, because what you've been saying, in so many words, is: "If a symbol is present, a symbol is acclimated to, but acclimation toward the people and their acts that the symbol represents does not occur", as if symbols occur in some sort of cultural vacume.

'Symbols exist in a vacuum' is not a statement I have ever made.

I never claimed that an act had to be present in order for any acclimation of any kind at all to occur.

A depiction of the act is more powerful than a symbol to acclimate society to the *act*, so, where is your link to a WW2 Jewish memorial depicting the *act* of practicing the faith?

Tashah · 06-04-08, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

A depiction of the act is more powerful than a symbol to acclimate society to the *act*, so, where is your link to a WW2 Jewish memorial depicting the *act* of practicing the faith?

A few points...

I have visited almost every Holocaust Memorial in Western/Central/Eastern Europe and Russia. I have never seen one depicting an act of the religion of Judaism. A few have Jewish symbols such as the Magen David, a Menorah, or the Hebrew script. All of these commemorate the World War II Jewish victims of the Nazi genocide.

Most Holocaust memorials in the lands above were commissioned by a government agency and the design artisan was typically a native gentile. In most cases, the remembrance message is transmitted via an eloquent simplicity. I well remember a Holocaust memorial at the site of a major death camp in Poland. An eternal flame is surrounded by a vast circle of stones set in the ground. Each individual stone represents a Jewish victim of the camp. Extremely simple, and yet profoundly unforgettable. It boggled the mind.

Russia does not identify any particular class of people as victims. Without fail, all are memorialized simply as murdered Soviet citizens.

Jerry · 06-04-08, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tashah

A few points...

I have visited almost every Holocaust Memorial in Western/Central/Eastern Europe and Russia. I have never seen one depicting an act of the religion of Judaism. A few have Jewish symbols such as the Magen David, a Menorah, or the Hebrew script. All of these commemorate the World War II Jewish victims of the Nazi genocide.

Most Holocaust memorials in the lands above were commissioned by a government agency and the design artisan was typically a native gentile. In most cases, the remembrance message is transmitted via an eloquent simplicity. I well remember a Holocaust memorial at the site of a major death camp in Poland. An eternal flame is surrounded by a vast circle of stones set in the ground. Each individual stone represents a Jewish victim of the camp. Extremely simple, and yet profoundly unforgettable. It boggled the mind.

Russia does not identify any particular class of people as victims. Without fail, all are memorialized simply as murdered Soviet citizens.

I hope to one day visit such memorials.