Jake Blues

Although I am straight male married with children.I do beleive being Gay is inherent in the DNA mix.How gay you are closet vs queen bee is another story.
I've met and chatted with a TV who told me that her and her other two brothers were also TVs.They felt that way since childhood.Most gay men I know work with say that they had the feeling since childhood.If you beleive in god which I do although consider myself a man of no religion but at the same time all religions you must beleive god is everywhere in everything.To quote/paraphrase Albert "god doesn't play dice".His comment was in reference to whether there is such a thing as random events.He didn't beleive in it.He was searching for a unified theory that would explain or make things predictable because he beleived there was one.Quite recently a news article said that what you eat can decide the sex of a baby.Just imagine if there is a food for being gay and it was your mothers favorite food .

A quick joke and before anyone says I'm insensitive my gay friends laughed harder at this one then I did.


A flamboyant gay steward was making final checks before landing.As he was walking down the aisle of the plane with a little shimmy he said " ok everyone time to hand me your disposables and put your seats all the way up and that goes for your trayzees too!Isn't it so exciting to be arriving in Palm Springs."

As he turned around and headed back with the bag of trash he noticed one woman from one of the Emirates had not put up her tray or seat back.He said in a very sweet voice "hey sweetie I geuss you didn't hear me it's time to put up your trayzee wayzee".The lady from the Emirates looked up with a snear and said "in my country I am a princess and do not take orders from commoners".The steward suddenly turned red and said "well in my country I am a queen and a queen outranks a princess now put your god damn tray up".

Ethereal

Case closed. Simply masterful.

Mach

Homosexuality is simply a term used to describe a specific animal behavior.

Gay is often used to describe people who claim to prefer, or are evidenced to prefer, homsexual behavior. It is true in so far as it's useful and it corresponds to reality.

Anyone arguing that behavior has nothing to do with genetics is incorrect.
Anyone arguing that behavior is only dervied from genetics is incorrect.
Anyone arguing that behavior is a simple A/B choice fails to list the premises of what a human choice is (a behavior based on genetics and the self (which is formed from genetics and evironment))

-Mach

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Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and I am content.- Conan

Mach

Let's use some boring good old fashioned attempt at logic:

X = homsexuality
Y = "innate desire to procreate"

Premise 1. X is dervied from Y (from your sentence)
Premise 2. Y is genetic in origin (from your sentence)
A. therefore X is dependant on genetics. (my conclusion)
B. therefore X is not dependant on genetics (i..e not innate, your conclusion).

I beleive A. is correct, yet you arrived at B., which appears to be contradictory based on the above. Can we agree or do we need to refine this?

I'm not sure I understand any of this. I was sexual curious when I was very young, and I can assure you I had no idea what procreation was and certainly no "desire to perepetuate the species". I did feel some pleasure associated with observing females ( had a crush on a blonde substitute in kindergarten for instance), and later with morning erections, but again this was instinctual pleasure responses, it had nothing to do with "desire to procreate". I believe if this isn't an important part of the argument, it should be dropped because it appears false or misleading, else, we need some clarification to evaluate it further.

It's about sexual arousal and pleasure. I don't think the object of that arousal is really relevant. Your brain doesn't care when it releases pleasure inducing chemicals, it's the same molecules either way. We can condition ourselves to be aroused when holding a bible for instance, but the arousal mechanism already existed (genetics).

Blame? Societies label behaviors as good or bad, just as individuals do.
Unless we define the criteria for good/bad, then it's without meaning. If you or anyone lists criteria, we can use logic/reason to tell if their conclusion was true or false based on that criteria (relative to it). But that would only demonstate their definition of good/bad was consistent with their example. It wouldn't magically mean it really was universally "good" (which has no meaning).

-Mach

Ethereal

You're missing a very important distinction. The genetic origin of homosexuality hinges upon on whether or not homosexuality is invariably derived from our genetics. Homosexuality is not invariably derived from our innate desire to procreate, rather this innate desire forms a template from which any number of variables (sexual preferences) may come to fruition. Understand?

Are you serious? You basically spelled it out and you still managed to miss the connection. Your "instictual pleasure response" is how your innate desire to procreate expresses itself. Are you somehow suggesting that a desire to perpetuate the species is a learned practice?

Do you realize that you're agreeing with me now?

What are you talking about? I explained a probable motivation for the belief that homosexuality is genetic in origin. I never specified whether or not homosexuality is immoral. You need to pay more attention.

Are you the same Mach who used to post all the time on the BFC? If so I can see where your lack of attention comes into play.

quatrotritikali

I don't know anything about all this high-brow talk (I am a simple, plain-speaking guy)...but all these "theories" about the origins of homosexuality are just that -- theories. Nobody knows for certain what causes homosexuality.

But as a gay male, I do think humans are born bisexual at birth...we are then "raised", for the most part, as heterosexuals. Genetics, environmental factors, etc. may then play a part in shaping and eventually determining one's permanent sexual orientation.

I have no desire to procreate. When I get an erection, it is not with the thought of producing more people...it is a result of some outside stimuli that makes me excited and/or aroused. It is that simple...no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

A good many of us "experiment" with the same sex as kids, but most usually turn and remain on the heterosexual road. Others may be less inhibited and will continue experimenting until they find their sexual comfort zones.

I remember as a small kid (about 2nd grade) that I was somehow different than my playmates. I certainly did not understand anything about homosexuality, I couldn't have told you how I felt different, especially towards the boys.

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Kali

I so agree that we are all born bisexual.

Ethereal

There are only two possible causes for homosexuality, consequently any logical negation of one possibility is a logical affirmation of the other. There exists no scientific proof to support genetic homosexuality despite the plethora of studies conducted in order to establish it as such. It's not due to a lack of technology or appropriate methodology so it must be due to a lack of causation.

On the other hand there is a good deal of evidence to support the converse of genetic homosexuality. Identical twins having divergent sexual preferences is one such example, whereas the strong role society (environment) played in the perpetuation of Athenian pederasty is another. How does one explain this?

To suggest we're born bisexual at birth would be to suggest that infants have a sexual preference, which cannot be true. A more accurate term would be sexually neutral.

Also, I'm glad you admit that environmental factors play an important role in determining sexuality, but as far as genetics is concerned they can only have an indirect effect on our preferences much the same way genetics have an indirect effect on alchoholism.

Any genetisist will tell you that alchoholism is not genetic in the way most people think, i.e., that it removes choice from the equation. Certain genes may leave one more predisposed to choosing an alchoholic or homosexual lifestyle but they do not preculde that choice.

As I said before that stimuli you experience is how your innate desire to procreate expresses itself. Inducing pleasure in your penis results in ejaculation which, if placed appropriately, will result in procreation. It's all a means to an end. The fact that you choose to ejaculate in something other than a vagina makes it biologically abberant, but that doesn't make it wrong either. It's your choice.

Very true.

Just because you never made a split-second, conscious decision to become homosexual doesn't exclude the possibility that it was a gradual and largely subconscience process. This gradual and subsconscience process laid the framework for your eventual acceptance of your preference.

I think that the genetic homosexuality argument is way for homosexuals and those sympathetic to them to remove choice from the equation, because if there is no choice then there can be no culpability. If there is no culpability then any condemnation of homosexuality is meritless.

I can empathize with this. I don't feel condemning homosexuals as immoral is warranted, and perhaps someday when those people realize this homosexuals will be comfortable with admitting that their preference is a choice without fear of backlash. Personally I don't care what your sexual preference is so long as it isn't for children or unwilling animals and people. My issue with genetic homosexuality is purely scientific.

Robear

I actually do recall making the choice to be hetero! I have always been very sensitive for a guy and have had some typical "gay" guy traits like good taste, emotional awareness, etc... Also, I have never felt very masculine or accepted by women. Anyways, sometime after 10th grade I began to have intrusive gay thoughts, which were linked to OCD. I was too ashamed to talk about them so I never found out I had OCD and by 11th grade I was sexually attracted to men and women. However, coming from a Christian family this was not acceptable to me and hurt my self-esteem so I eventually went to a counselor(decided I wanted to be hetero). He found out I had OCD and worked through my masculinity problem, and I found out I don't have to be a supercool jock to be straight. Then, after some therapy and medication, I was attracted to only women again.

So in short, yes I consciously remember when I chose to be straight.

rivrrat

Well that must be nice to be able to CHOOSE who you're attracted to. God knows I've certainly wished a hundred times NOT to be attracted to someone, or wished a hundred times that I WAS attracted to someone, but it's just not possible for me (or probably %99.9999999 of the people in the world) to control who I am attracted to.

So good for you. You accomplished something (supposedly) that the vast majority of the population cannot do and most have probably wished they could at some point in their life.

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