Abstinence Education - a failure? (1 Viewer)

Has it failed wherever it's implemented? What is proof of the failure of the program?

Mellie said:

Has it failed wherever it's implemented? What is proof of the failure of the program?

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Well, here's the thing: as long as people implement it, that is they remain abstinent, it works great.

Some percentage just ain't a gonna listen though. Some people think this means we should not teach abstinence at all.

Nonsense. Not everyone is going to use a condom, but that doesn't stop sex-ed from demo'ing them on innocent zuccini. :mrgreen:

Probably the best results will be had when you teach both abstinence, as the preferred solution to teen sex and STDs, and the use of protection as the "backup plan", as in "if despite everything we've told you about how you ought to wait, you decide to do this anyway, here's how you put a condom on a cucumber..."

Now, again, some people would want this teaching to be done thus:

Abstinence, SAFE SEX, SAFE SEX, SAFE SEX, SAFE SEX!


Um...

Me, I'd prefer a slightly more balanced approach. :2wave:

Abstinence only education is a failure. Plain and simple.

Goshin said:

Now, again, some people would want this teaching to be done thus:

Abstinence, SAFE SEX, SAFE SEX, SAFE SEX, SAFE SEX!


Um...

Me, I'd prefer a slightly more balanced approach. :2wave:

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And how would you do that? I mean, how long does it take to talk about how not having sex is the safest bet?

Orion said:

And how would you do that? I mean, how long does it take to talk about how not having sex is the safest bet?

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Actually it can take quite a while if you do it right. Having a 14yo of my own, I've spent quite a bit of time detailing the why nots:

STD's, including some that can kill you. That can take a while to cover adequately.
The fact that condoms have a failure rate that is higher than most people realize.
Pregnancy and all the implications that unwanted/teenage/too-soon pregnancy can bring: the question of abortion, and how the female can override the male's wishes entirely on it, the trials and tribulations of child-rearing, child support payments and what can happen if you miss a few...
Not to mention the emotional and mental implications of how engaging in intimacy too early and/or too often can cause relationship problems later in life.

...and that practicing abstinence is the only SURE SOLUTION to avoiding these issues... safe sex is simply a seatbelt that doesn't always work.

But yeah, I want them to know about "safe" sex anyway, just in case they ignore the abstinence part.

I guarantee you that if you use the Goshin Method of teaching why abstinence is a good thing, they won't forget it whether they practice it or not! :mrgreen:

"See this picture kids? This is a penis that wandered into too many high-traffic vaginas. Notice the way it appears to be rotting off? Well, there's a good reason for abstinence right there..." :rofl

Orion said:

Abstinence only education is a failure. Plain and simple.

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That's pretty much it. Education only leads to choices, and hopefully choices that utilize the most of that education.

It's the same philosophy why kids who grow up only hearing "because I said so" or "because that's what God wants" without any sort of explanation or rational thought turn into rebellious individuals who are so antiestablishment that it's actually a detriment.

If children today want to make an informed choice to be pure, more power to them. If you try to force it, you're going to have a slut behind closed doors.

Mellie said:

Has it failed wherever it's implemented? What is proof of the failure of the program?

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Abstinence ONLY education is an utter failure and this has been demonstrated time and time and TIME again to such a degree and by far more educated people than I that I need not go into it here.

I dont see how the idea would even make sense enough to have someone say "Yeah, lets put that in the classroom."

I support teaching abstinence as part of a comprehensive sex ed program that includes full disclosure of all factual information and addresses what students need to know about sex to stay safe if they dont want to be abstinent.

Goshin said:

STD's, including some that can kill you. That can take a while to cover adequately.

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Which can be avoided by being selective about your partners and using protection.

The fact that condoms have a failure rate that is higher than most people realize.

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Erm, no
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/organization/dmid/PDF/condomReport.pdf

Hoplite said:

Which can be avoided by being selective about your partners and using protection.

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Not with remotely the same certainty as abstinence. :mrgreen:

I know quite a few children who were concieved despite precautions.

Erm, no
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/organization/dmid/PDF/condomReport.pdf

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Erm, yes.

Effectiveness
In preventing pregnancy
See also: Comparison of birth control methods#Effectiveness of various methods
The effectiveness of condoms, as of most forms of contraception, can be assessed two ways. Perfect use or method effectiveness rates only include people who use condoms properly and consistently. Actual use, or typical use effectiveness rates are of all condom users, including those who use condoms incorrectly or do not use condoms at every act of intercourse. Rates are generally presented for the first year of use.[43] Most commonly the Pearl Index is used to calculate effectiveness rates, but some studies use decrement tables.[44]:141

The typical use pregnancy rate among condom users varies depending on the population being studied, ranging from 10–18% per year.[45] The perfect use pregnancy rate of condoms is 2% per year.[43] Condoms may be combined with other forms of contraception (such as spermicide) for greater protection.[35]

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Condom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If pregnancy occurs for 10-18% of condom users annually, then the possibility of STDs also has to be somewhat similar. 10-18% failure rate in actual use is not so good.

Goshin said:

Erm, yes.



Condom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If pregnancy occurs for 10-18% of condom users annually, then the possibility of STDs also has to be somewhat similar. 10-18% failure rate in actual use is not so good.

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Usually because people dont store or use condoms correctly because of a lack of good sex education.

Goshin said:

Effectiveness
In preventing pregnancy
See also: Comparison of birth control methods#Effectiveness of various methods
The effectiveness of condoms, as of most forms of contraception, can be assessed two ways. Perfect use or method effectiveness rates only include people who use condoms properly and consistently. Actual use, or typical use effectiveness rates are of all condom users, including those who use condoms incorrectly or do not use condoms at every act of intercourse. Rates are generally presented for the first year of use.[43] Most commonly the Pearl Index is used to calculate effectiveness rates, but some studies use decrement tables.[44]:141

The typical use pregnancy rate among condom users varies depending on the population being studied, ranging from 10–18% per year.[45] The perfect use pregnancy rate of condoms is 2% per year.[43] Condoms may be combined with other forms of contraception (such as spermicide) for greater protection.[35]

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I'm surprised you focused so much on the second paragraph but not on the first. That rate is based on first year of use (see: inexperienced), a demographic that tends to use them improperly or inconsistently. All that says is that education about condom use should be increased.

The inherent failure rate of the condoms themselves, in terms of manufacturing quality, is less than 1% if within the expiration date.

Goshin said:

STD's, including some that can kill you. That can take a while to cover adequately.

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Leaving your house can kill you too, but we still do it. If you want zero risk then you take zero chances, but most people don't live that way.

Abstinence should be included as part of any sex ed program, but I don't think it deserves special emphasis or a long, drawn out discussion.

Goshin said:

The fact that condoms have a failure rate that is higher than most people realize.

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Debunked above.

Goshin said:

Pregnancy and all the implications that unwanted/teenage/too-soon pregnancy can bring: the question of abortion, and how the female can override the male's wishes entirely on it, the trials and tribulations of child-rearing, child support payments and what can happen if you miss a few...

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That seems more political to me, and has less to do with the biological facts of sex. I think it would suffice to teach them that having sex can lead to the creation of a child. I would argue that the majority of people who have sex are not aiming to procreate and the last thing they want is a kid. The responsibilities are best left to a parenting class.

As for abortion... I can only speak for myself, but the sex ed classes I took growing up didn't really place a particular emphasis on it. It was mentioned in so far as it's legal to have one, yada yada, but it was only touched on.

Goshin said:

Not to mention the emotional and mental implications of how engaging in intimacy too early and/or too often can cause relationship problems later in life.

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I doubt the veracity of this.

It's not the job of sex ed to tell people to not have intimacy; it exists to provide youth with knowledge of their empowered choices in life. Whether or not they "should" be engaging in intimacy is none of the school's business. That's a moral implication and it doesn't belong in a sex ed class.

Orion said:

I'm surprised you focused so much on the second paragraph but not on the first. That rate is based on first year of use (see: inexperienced), a demographic that tends to use them improperly or inconsistently. All that says is that education about condom use should be increased.

The inherent failure rate of the condoms themselves, in terms of manufacturing quality, is less than 1% if within the expiration date.
.

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The perfect rate assumes perfect use, yet the actual-use figures make it plain that perfect use is virtually nonexistent in the real world.

I think we should stick with real-world figures.


In any case, lest it be forgotten...I'm not arguing for abstinence-only education. I agree that "Safe sex" should also be taught. All I'm saying is that safe-sex isn't as safe as abstinence, which should be so obvious as to be self-evident, and that condoms should not be presented as being perfect protection in real world use when they most obviously are not.

Goshin said:

The perfect rate assumes perfect use, yet the actual-use figures make it plain that perfect use is virtually nonexistent in the real world.

I think we should stick with real-world figures.


In any case, lest it be forgotten...I'm not arguing for abstinence-only education. I agree that "Safe sex" should also be taught. All I'm saying is that safe-sex isn't as safe as abstinence, which should be so obvious as to be self-evident, and that condoms should not be presented as being perfect protection in real world use when they most obviously are not.

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I understand your position, but earlier you said that you would favor a more in depth conversation about abstinence, and then put forward a bunch of political ideologies that could be discussed. I think the reason why abstinence seemingly gets little coverage is because the principles behind it are simple and don't need much explaining.

Yes, condoms aren't perfect and I don't recall sex ed classes ever saying they were, but I think the 10-18% figure as a failure rate is much too high.

Orion said:

Yes, condoms aren't perfect and I don't recall sex ed classes ever saying they were, but I think the 10-18% figure as a failure rate is much too high.

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I've not had particularly good luck with them, personally.
Nor have a number of other individuals on this forum, to hear them tell it.
A 10+% failure rate, even with perfect use, wouldn't surprise me much.
Still, it's better than nothing.

Goshin said:

The perfect rate assumes perfect use, yet the actual-use figures make it plain that perfect use is virtually nonexistent in the real world.

I think we should stick with real-world figures.


In any case, lest it be forgotten...I'm not arguing for abstinence-only education. I agree that "Safe sex" should also be taught. All I'm saying is that safe-sex isn't as safe as abstinence, which should be so obvious as to be self-evident, and that condoms should not be presented as being perfect protection in real world use when they most obviously are not.

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The fact of the matter is this: the urge to have sex is older than civilization itself and isnt something that can be easily ignored or suppressed and it's extremely stressful for many people to do so. I found it a miserable and emotionally unsettling experience.

Having safe sex is about more than using condoms. It's about selecting partners that you KNOW personally and know are healthy. It's about being educated about STDs. It's about using condoms or other forms of birth control and being willing to accept the consequences if those methods should fail.

Abstinence only sex ed is just as effective as "just hold it" potty training

I can't see why teenagers should be discouraged from having sex. Why should they be instilled with a completely useless morality that does nothing but making people feel guilty about their natural sexual urges?

Sex ed should teach the biology involved in reproduction and it should teach how to take good care of yourself and your partner by using contraception, respecting limits etc. It should not push teenagers to have sex before they are ready - this is just another form of peer pressure that is as bad as pushing people not to have sex if they are not ready - but it should also teach that it is completely legitimate to have sex if you and your partner wants to and protect each other.

Goshin said:

Having a 14yo of my own, I've spent quite a bit of time detailing the why nots:

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Should 25-year-olds and 40-year-olds practice abstinence only when dating?

Regicollis said:

Abstinence only sex ed is just as effective as "just hold it" potty training

I can't see why teenagers should be discouraged from having sex. Why should they be instilled with a completely useless morality that does nothing but making people feel guilty about their natural sexual urges?

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I do not think there is a moral reason to discourage teens from having sex. However, there are other reasons to do so. Teen brains have not developed enough to often see consequences of their actions. They often react impulsively and based on emotion. This can lead to far poorer choices than adult, who's brains have developed further. This is why comprehensive sex ed., including the emotional/relationship aspect should be addressed.

Sex ed should teach the biology involved in reproduction and it should teach how to take good care of yourself and your partner by using contraception, respecting limits etc. It should not push teenagers to have sex before they are ready - this is just another form of peer pressure that is as bad as pushing people not to have sex if they are not ready - but it should also teach that it is completely legitimate to have sex if you and your partner wants to and protect each other.

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I would agree for the most part, though, again, the emotional/relationship aspect needs to be discussed so that a teen's developmental level can be addressed.

Orion said:

Abstinence only education is a failure. Plain and simple.

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What evidence do you look to to come to that conclusion?

samsmart said:

Should 25-year-olds and 40-year-olds practice abstinence only when dating?

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Preferably, yes.

The only sure way to avoid unwanted pregnancy or STD's is abstinence before marriage (or between marriages), and monogamy during marriage.

When this was considered the societal standard, things were not perfect but there wasn't nearly the level of problems we have today with STDs and unwanted pregnancies.

Now, some people aren't going to follow that advise... and if they don't, then yeah they should use "safe sex" practices.

Orion said:

I understand your position, but earlier you said that you would favor a more in depth conversation about abstinence, and then put forward a bunch of political ideologies that could be discussed. I think the reason why abstinence seemingly gets little coverage is because the principles behind it are simple and don't need much explaining.

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Political ideologies?


:doh

Goshin said:

STD's, including some that can kill you. That can take a while to cover adequately.
The fact that condoms have a failure rate that is higher than most people realize.
Pregnancy and all the implications that unwanted/teenage/too-soon pregnancy can bring: the question of abortion, and how the female can override the male's wishes entirely on it, the trials and tribulations of child-rearing, child support payments and what can happen if you miss a few...
Not to mention the emotional and mental implications of how engaging in intimacy too early and/or too often can cause relationship problems later in life.

Click to expand...

Goshin said:

Probably the best results will be had when you teach both abstinence, as the preferred solution to teen sex and STDs, and the use of protection as the "backup plan", as in "if despite everything we've told you about how you ought to wait, you decide to do this anyway, here's how you put a condom on a cucumber..."

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I would say that the presentation on STDs did more to persuade my daughter to wait to have sex than anything else. And in our local school district, they basically state that there is no such thing as safe sex. All sex comes with risk. And, there are a host of STDs that can't be prevented with a condom.

In my daughter's case, we're pretty open at my house about sex, and the ramifications of having it. She told me recently that she and her boyfriend have decided not to have sex because she plans to be a veterinarian, and doesn't want to get sidetracked.

I was also very open with her about the fact that I had an unplanned pregnancy...that it can happen to anyone, and that means that you should make pretty serious decisions about your readiness to have a child before having sex.

Ideally, the best approach would be an abstinence + STD prevention approach coupled with parents being open and sharing their values and ideas with their kids.

Regicollis said:

I can't see why teenagers should be discouraged from having sex. Why should they be instilled with a completely useless morality that does nothing but making people feel guilty about their natural sexual urges?

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I think it's entirely possible to discourage teenagers from having sex without using the "sex is bad outside of marriage" approach. As a divorced single mom with a boyfriend of 2 years, it would be completely hypocritical for me to use that approach. The approach we take at my house is: "Sex is a serious decision with potentially life-altering ramifications. It shouldn't be taken lightly." I feel like every year that my daughter DOESN'T have sex as a teenager is a victory, because with each year that passes, she becomes more mature and more emotionally aware of the potential for negative fallout from sex.

The last thing that I want is for my daughter to end up carrying around a permanent STD (herpes?) because she was taught that wearing a condom will protect her and make sex safe and fun. Sex is fun, but it will never be safe. A condom cannot prevent the spread of numerous STDs, including herpes and HPV, which can lead to cervical cancer. And, condom failure can lead to pregnancy.

My job, as a parent, is to give my daughter as much information as i can to help her protect her health, her body, and her emotional well-being.

Well yeah, but she's going to lose her boyfriend.

Blowjobs are pretty safe. Tell her to open wide and say AHHHH! for love.

Gipper said:

Well yeah, but she's going to lose her boyfriend.

Blowjobs are pretty safe. Tell her to open wide and say AHHHH! for love.

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Dude...

I figure Catz has enough sense of humor to take that in stride, but in my opinion saying something like that about a mother's teenage daughter TO the mother, is just totally class-less.

Way to go, Don Quixote. Is that foot you stuck in your mouth tasty?

Goshin said:

Dude...

I figure Catz has enough sense of humor to take that in stride, but in my opinion saying something like that about a mother's teenage daughter TO the mother, is just totally class-less.

Way to go, Don Quixote. Is that foot you stuck in your mouth tasty?

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He's just massively overcompensating for the fact that no one wants anything to do with his puny member, and likely, never will.

Of course, there are always Thai prostitutes.