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Child Support is an Artificial Social Policy

Uh, hello?

Women earn less than men, and are more likely to have custody.

We should also note that not all recipients of child support are women; about 10% are men.

Yes we should. I'm sure that those men receive child support voluntarily, although that would be a very natural reason to limit one's sex life.



And yet, your comments have absolutely no recognition that the purpose of child support is to support children.
By whom are these children supported, men who do or men who do not autonomously and financially support children? The point is that some men are forced to become parents before they are prepared to do so. Women who have prior knowledge of this fact can leverage their sex lives in order to finance their ideal life, or to force men to serve the state's interest.

When a women becomes pregnant before she is prepared to give birth, we don't say "you better get ready," rather we provide a list of options for pregnant women to choose from. When a women becomes pregnant before a man is prepared to become a parent, we tell that man to be prepared to go to court and pay child support if the court feels like making him pay. It's not objective, however men are disproportionately targeted by the court in order to finance child support which is a form of welfare provided to individuals by the state.
 
No one is being "co-opted" or "commandeered." The government didn't tell you where to put your dick. They certainly didn't tell you to forget the condoms.
And the government also didn't tell a woman to give birth or to become a parent. They certainly didn't provide an option in the case of condom failure, due in no part to the fault of any person.

You seem to think the only reason for child support is to screw over men. At a minimum, your comments -- and lack of reaction to a repeated reminder that the purpose of child support is to support children -- indicate you fundamentally misunderstand the concept.
You seem to think that I seem to think something that I don't think. I never said the only reason for child support was to screw over men. Your false accusation fails to appreciate the gravity of the situation and indicates that you do not understand the concept of servitude, which is to benefit some person, persons, or an organization such as a business or the government.

Now, if it were the case that citizens of the US were to be taxed for a child support fund, that would be a form of public welfare upon which society would have collectively agreed. That is not the case, because it is a socioeconomic policy which is according to the needs of children. Because men are targeted by the court, the law is discriminatory. Men do not have the option out, i.e. to abort. Since sex and reproduction are separate issues, we know that women can have sex and abort. The social and biological consequences exist for men and women, when women abort. Because men cannot abort, only women have a say in those consequences. The social consequences are that men are deprived of their liberty, and constrained by a discriminatory social practice.

It's not ok to arrange a marriage against the will of men or women. This is because there are social consequences of marriage which men and women may not be able to abide by. Yet, unlike forced marriage, child support cannot be cancelled by no fault divorce.


Men have absolutely no right, ethically or legally, to force a woman to have an abortion. By the same token, no woman should have the right to force a man to have a vasectomy, or to freeze his sperm against his will.

If a man doesn't want to have a child, he has plenty of options. Such as....
False, if a man doesn't want to have a child, his options are three: celibacy, surgery or surrogacy. Find another patron.

Men do have some influence, as they can most certainly request the woman get an abortion. What they don't have is the right to force a woman to obey the man's unilateral command.
Incorrect. Some influence is not autonomy. Some influence is political, and allows the state to exercise tyranny over men, thereby depriving men of their liberty.

The social, legal, and ethical consequences of letting a man compel a woman to have an abortion are as obvious as they are horrendous, and a definite non-starter. As are your attempts to delegitimize child support on this basis.

Stop bitching, and pay your damned child support.
Nice strawman, why don't we stop bitching and acknowledge the fact that involuntary servitude is un-American. I am truly ashamed to see someone advocate for plantation economics.
 
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Why are children owed support from unwilling parties? Because they're children? Is that it? Also, the government doesn't care if protection was used. People need to stop bringing it up like it's a factor in the case.
 
Why are children owed support from unwilling parties? Because they're children? Is that it? Also, the government doesn't care if protection was used. People need to stop bringing it up like it's a factor in the case.

It's not a factor, this is a financial matter and any appeal to emotion should be summarily dismissed as "irrelevant."
 
It's not a factor, this is a financial matter and any appeal to emotion should be summarily dismissed as "irrelevant."

I'm fully aware of that, but I'm still interested in the claim they are using as the backbone of their argument.
 
Yes we should. I'm sure that those men receive child support voluntarily, although that would be a very natural reason to limit one's sex life.
Whatever


By whom are these children supported, men who do or men who do not autonomously and financially support children?
In this case, they are supported by the custodial parent, and the parent providing child support.


The point is that some men are forced to become parents before they are prepared to do so.
So what?

Any time a man and woman have sex, there is a very real chance the woman will get pregnant. If you don't want to have kids, don't have vaginal sex.


Women who have prior knowledge of this fact can leverage their sex lives in order to finance their ideal life, or to force men to serve the state's interest.
And yet more MRA bull****, which is completely divorced from reality.

The average child support payment is somewhere around $430/month. Single motherhood is not a path to riches, as should be screamingly obvious from a variety of statistics.

The idea that women are deceptively snaring men into donating sperm against their will is Red Pill garbage.


When a women becomes pregnant before she is prepared to give birth, we don't say "you better get ready," rather we provide a list of options for pregnant women to choose from. When a women becomes pregnant before a man is prepared to become a parent, we tell that man to be prepared to go to court and pay child support if the court feels like making him pay.
Too freaking bad.

If you aren't ready to have a child, don't have vaginal sex.

The asymmetry in the decision to have an abortion does not relieve the father of the responsibility of his actions, nor does it empower the man to force a woman to have an abortion.
 
Hey Visbek, should women keep their legs closed if they don't want to get pregnant? Just wondering...

Oh and your responsibility argument is still made up from nothing but society and law. It has no basis beyond itself really.
 
He started the thread yesterday, so no, he is not starting the thread again.

There was already a thread like this started before.
He couldn't justify his position of why he shouldn't have to support his kid so. I see no reason to start another one.
 
Hey Visbek, should women keep their legs closed if they don't want to get pregnant? Just wondering...

Oh and your responsibility argument is still made up from nothing but society and law. It has no basis beyond itself really.

Women don't get pregnant if you don't sleep with them. Biology 101.

Yep we have laws that make you responsible instead of the rest of society.
So you lose the argument already.
 
And the government also didn't tell a woman to give birth or to become a parent. They certainly didn't provide an option in the case of condom failure, due in no part to the fault of any person.
So what?

The government tests everyone's driving ability. It is not responsible for you getting behind the wheel of a car, and plowing into a grocery stand.

If you have vaginal sex, there is always the possibility that the woman will get pregnant. If you can't handle that, then handle thyself.


You seem to think that I seem to think something that I don't think. I never said the only reason for child support was to screw over men. Your false accusation fails to appreciate the gravity of the situation and indicates that you do not understand the concept of servitude, which is to benefit some person, persons, or an organization such as a business or the government.
It is screamingly obvious that you don't care about the welfare of the child, and assume that child care is merely a method to extract money from men.

In addition, responsibility is not a form of servitude. The man paying child support is no more a "servant" than a parent making sure their child is sufficiently educated.


Now, if it were the case that citizens of the US were to be taxed for a child support fund, that would be a form of public welfare upon which society would have collectively agreed. That is not the case, because it is a socioeconomic policy which is according to the needs of children....
Guess what? When a man has sex with a woman, that's not a collective decision, and is not necessarily a collective responsibility. Raising a child is the responsibility of the parents -- BOTH of them, since child support payments rarely defray all the costs associated with raising a child.


Because men are targeted by the court, the law is discriminatory.
Please.

Like I said, men have higher incomes, and women tend to have custody. Those are easily verifiable facts. Seriously, how else should it turn out?


Since sex and reproduction are separate issues
lol... Uh, no, not when a man and woman have vaginal sex.


Because men cannot abort, only women have a say in those consequences.
Repetition is not an argument.

Again: Men do have a say. They simply do not have the final say.


The social consequences are that men are deprived of their liberty, and constrained by a discriminatory social practice.
Men are not "deprived of their liberty." They are being compelled by the court to fulfill their responsibilities. Be a man.


It's not ok to arrange a marriage against the will of men or women. This is because there are social consequences of marriage which men and women may not be able to abide by. Yet, unlike forced marriage, child support cannot be cancelled by no fault divorce.
Yes, that's because children cannot be cancelled by a no-fault divorce. See how that works?


Nice strawman, why don't we stop bitching and acknowledge the fact that involuntary servitude is un-American. I am truly ashamed to see someone advocate for plantation economics.
Your comparisons of child support to chattel slavery is completely, utterly, ethically bankrupt.

I think you've dug a big enough hole for yourself. Respond if you like, but I have no further interest in this Red Pill nonsense.
 
There was already a thread like this started before.
He couldn't justify his position of why he shouldn't have to support his kid so. I see no reason to start another one.

He can start whatever thread he pleases unless the mods say otherwise.
 
Women don't get pregnant if you don't sleep with them. Biology 101.

Yep we have laws that make you responsible instead of the rest of society.
So you lose the argument already.

Unless the law hold you to an obligation all responsibility comes about from choosing to be responsible. Still, there is no natural basis to say men are responsible for their children. It's just a social construct.
 
Why are children owed support from unwilling parties? Because they're children? Is that it? Also, the government doesn't care if protection was used. People need to stop bringing it up like it's a factor in the case.

You were not unwilling and choose to have sex with her unless you are claiming rape.

Which is it?
 
Unless the law hold you to an obligation all responsibility comes about from choosing to be responsible. Anyone that says you're responsible for this or that by default is just applying their personal beliefs onto you.

Not really you are responsible for your actions. In this case the action was getting a women pregnant.
 
There was already a thread like this started before.
He couldn't justify his position of why he shouldn't have to support his kid so. I see no reason to start another one.

Can you justify the position of why any man should be forced to support his biological child, other than by appeal to authority? I have already justified my position. What thread are you referring to?

Not really you are responsible for your actions. In this case the action was getting a women pregnant.

Getting a woman pregnant is not the same as a woman giving birth, so two things:

  1. Men are obligated to support born children at a higher rate than men are obligated to provide prenatal care as a service to women. Why is this?
  2. The government can choose between three options: use men as a financial resource to satiate a need (social welfare), leave it up to the private agreements arranged outside of court (free market welfare), put their ****ing money where their mouth is (accountability).

Since the government can put people in jail for breaking the law, and they can't afford to ask people to put their money where their mouth is, social welfare is the best option for someone who wants to get re-elected. Since debtor's prison does not exist, the free market will not suffice to force men to do what women want them to do, even if they have no money.
 
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Not really you are responsible for your actions. In this case the action was getting a women pregnant.

Not really. If you actually think it about beyond the law and social views and exceptions you will quickly find out that your statement is wrong.
 
Can you justify the position of why any man should be forced to support his biological child, other than by appeal to authority? I have already justified my position. What thread are you referring to?

Yep it isn't the job of society to pay for your actions.
If you don't want the responsibility don't get a women pregnant.

We have laws that isn't an appeal to authority. You evidently do not know what that is.
Nope you have yet to justify why you shouldn't support your child.

You willing slept with a women and assumed the risks of getting her pregnant.
 
Not really. If you actually think it about beyond the law and social views and exceptions you will quickly find out that your statement is wrong.

Nope it is 100% correct. The law holds you responsible for your actions.
Going uh huh is not an argument.
 
That is why yet another opponent of child support equity left bitter parting remarks after realizing the incompatibility of his views with ethical, moral standards we adhere to in America.

If women are as responsible for their actions as men, shouldn't pregnancy be up to women and parenting be up to men and women alike?
 
Yep it isn't the job of society to pay for your actions.

You really should stop saying that. No one is advocating society pay for anything.
 
Nope it is 100% correct. The law holds you responsible for your actions.
Going uh huh is not an argument.

You appear to be guilty of circular reasoning.
 
You willing slept with a women and assumed the risks of getting her pregnant.

At what point does "assuming risk" for someone other than one's own self become the case for men? When men get pregnant, which is not possible. Men are not responsible for women's actions by default, neither are women responsible for men's wishes by default.
 
You really should stop saying that. No one is advocating society pay for anything.

Sure you are. If you refuse to support your child then we have to.
The whole point of child support was to keep guys from just being able to dump their responsibility on the rest of the population.
 
At what point does "assuming risk" for someone other than one's own self become the case for men? When men get pregnant, which is not possible. Men are not responsible for women's actions by default, neither are women responsible for men's wishes by default.

Nope you are responsible for you actions which is getting her pregnant.
I suggest stick to oral or anal if you don't want to get a girl pregnant.

You stick it in her vagina you assume the risk of pregnancy.
 
You appear to be guilty of circular reasoning.

Yes we know you are that is why you can't justify or support your answer.
 
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