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Feminists treat men badly.

Harry Guerrilla said:
One study was posted and whatever is at clickbatemarysuegarbagedump.
The one posted had a sample size of approximately 100ish people.

When there are millions of game players of various genre's of games and at various ages.
You can't really point to that and say, see "muh sexism."
Hell name calling and internet threats are not really evident of any "ism," unless being an idiot or troll, is an "ism."

Then after all that, you have to sort through, who is actually an "ism" and who is actually just trolling for lulz.
Click to expand...

If you'd bother to read anything, you'd see how they controlled for that when comparing the sexes.

There is nothing "hard" about being a feminist in a developed nation.
It's often nothing but superficial virtue signaling, like putting an aids ribbon on your facebook.
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Depends what you're doing. Being a feminist who focuses on reproductive rights is still very dangerous in America. I've been assaulted in that line of work, and I know many other people who have too.

Although I disagree with lesbian feminism as a theory, a lot of them get assaulted too. Lesbians, feminist or not, get assaulted even more often than straight women when they're in places society still think of as "male," often through "corrective rape," which is especially common in the military.

There are lots of other examples. If you're doing this work seriously, no, it's not always safe, even in the developed world.

But beyond that, there are a lot of serious feminists in the developed world whose primary focus is actually helping the developing world. Radfems especially, as a matter of fact.

I'm not necessarily attacking you, I'm certainly attacking the belief that sexism is pervasive in "gaming."
The whole issue has been muddied by impropriety on both sides of the issue.
Yes gamers/youtube gamers have been doxxed, swatted and harassed by alleged feminists, for disagreeing.
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The numbers say women get attacked disproportionately. There's nothing muddy about this. And the vast majority of that is not coming from "feminists." It's coming from sexists, who mostly seem to be men, although a not-insubstantial number of women may also be participating.

The problem is that we don't get a clear message of which "feminism" is addressing the issue.
We get told that men objectify women, by liking the way they look and even some of the more extreme consider that rape.
We then get told that women embracing their sexuality is fine, even though men are told they are wrong for theirs.
You(feminism) don't send a clear message, it's often contradictory and easily mocked for it.
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That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No feminist ever has said anything like that to you, or anywhere I've ever seen in 10 years of activism -- even the looniest ones.

Feminists may say men who leer at women, follow them around, catcall them, are objectifying them. Correctly. All people look at anything that catches their attention, including the exceptionally attractive. Those of us who are mature adults have learned to respect others by not glowering at them, or bothering them.

This is, like, kindergarten-level manners. We all learn this the first time we see someone in a wheelchair. That so many men are still whining about the supposed complexity of basic lessons in decency that most 5-year-olds have figured out is just ridiculous.

You don't have difficulty understanding it. You just refuse to acknowledge that the onus is on you to have basic manners. That no one else is responsible for how you treat women, but you.

And this is the problem. There are still substantial numbers of people arguing that women are responsible for men mistreating them, and the rejection of that should be even louder than it is, if anything.

I read the first, but out of principle I cannot help generate revenue and clicks to sites I do not and will not support.
The mary sue is one of them.
Click to expand...

If you aren't going to read stuff, don't make up a bunch of **** in place of refusing to do the research.
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
It's a joke and not indicative of "sexism."
Some people have had bad past experience with play with women in games.

Some women, not all or most, get fawned on by men and use their gender to exploit them.
That doesn't necessarily make it right.
There are also groups that put age restrictions out for their groups as well.
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You seem to think that things being jokes indicates that the issues those jokes address can't be real or are being overstated. This isn't really the case. They generally are good indicators that there is some sort of issue here, that maybe this is how more people than you believe view the situation or that this is what is going on. It can still be a joke and funny, and also address a real issue.

And just because some do it to other groups, make such limitations, doesn't make it less "wrong". If someone only wanted to play with "white" players or "Christian" players, would that be fine? Would you not see the issue with having such a distinction? Even if the claim was "well I had bad experience with < people with X characteristic> in the past", which is essentially one of the excuses you just made? I'm not saying they wouldn't have a right to do it, but it should still be pointed out for what it is, bull**** or sexism, when it happens.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
If you'd bother to read anything, you'd see how they controlled for that when comparing the sexes.



Depends what you're doing. Being a feminist who focuses on reproductive rights is still very dangerous in America. I've been assaulted in that line of work, and I know many other people who have too.

Although I disagree with lesbian feminism as a theory, a lot of them get assaulted too. Lesbians, feminist or not, get assaulted even more often than straight women when they're in places society still think of as "male," often through "corrective rape," which is especially common in the military.

There are lots of other examples. If you're doing this work seriously, no, it's not always safe, even in the developed world.

But beyond that, a lot of serious feminists in the developed world whose primary focus is actually helping the developing world.



The numbers say women get attacked disproportionately. There's nothing muddy about this. And the vast majority of that is not coming from "feminists." It's coming from sexists, who mostly seem to be men, although a not-insubstantial number of women may also be participating.



That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No feminist ever has said anything like that to you, or anywhere I've ever seen in 10 years of activism -- even the looniest ones.

Feminists may say men who leer at women, follow them around, catcall them, are objectifying them. Correctly. All people look at anything that catches their attention, including the exceptionally attractive. Those of us who are mature adults have learned to respect others by not glowering at them, or bothering them.

This is, like, kindergarten-level manners. We all learn this the first time we see someone in a wheelchair. That so many men are still whining about the supposed complexity of basic lessons in decency that most 5-year-olds have figured out is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I believe you. Anti-feminists believe that their feelings are more important than the physical safety of women and girls everywhere.

If that isn't narcissism, I don't know what is.

You don't have difficulty understanding it. You just refuse to acknowledge that the onus is on you to have basic manners. That no one else is responsible for how you treat women, but you.

And this is the problem. There are still substantial numbers of people arguing that women are responsible for men mistreating them, and the rejection of that should be even louder than it is, if anything.

If you aren't going to read stuff, don't make up a bunch of **** in place of refusing to do the research.
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:thumbs:
 
Henrin said:
Smoke, do you realize you said that men are mean online and then said men are nice in person? What you are seeing online is what many men actually think about feminism, women, and the direction of society. When you point out that some men are not happy about women invading men's spaces you're pretty much spot on. Feminists like you have told women to go into every arena men are interested in and have left nothing whatsoever for men. It might be a stupid complaint, but it is in fact a complaint that many men want women to leave those arenas at once.
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:violin
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
If you'd bother to read anything, you'd see how they controlled for that when comparing the sexes.
Click to expand...

Yes, the study was limited to an incredibly small number, of one type of game, in one group.
We don't know the age, race, nationality, etc of these people, only the presumed gender.

That's poor research and the numbers don't necessarily scale, when you go up.
Beware the one study and small sample size.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Depends what you're doing. Being a feminist who focuses on reproductive rights is still very dangerous in America. I've been assaulted in that line of work, and I know many other people who have too.

Although I disagree with lesbian feminism as a theory, a lot of them get assaulted too. Lesbians, feminist or not, get assaulted even more often than straight women when they're in places society still think of as "male," often through "corrective rape," which is especially common in the military.

There are lots of other examples. If you're doing this work seriously, no, it's not always safe, even in the developed world.

But beyond that, a lot of serious feminists in the developed world whose primary focus is actually helping the developing world.
Click to expand...

For me to believe most of that, I'd have to see numbers.
Something can be a problem, but not a significant problem.


SmokeAndMirrors said:
The numbers say women get attacked disproportionately. There's nothing muddy about this. And the vast majority of that is not coming from "feminists." It's coming from sexists, who mostly seem to be men, although a not-insubstantial number of women may also be participating.
Click to expand...

The numbers are small, not necessarily representative of all groups.
So they're meaningless at this point.
There are a **** ton of game players that don't play halo or xbox anything, example: PCmasterace and PS folks.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No feminist ever has said anything like that to you, or anywhere I've ever seen in 10 years of activism -- even the looniest ones.
Click to expand...

Of course no one said that too me.
These people are cowards that hide behind the interwebs, just like internet trolls.
They wouldn't be tolerated in the real world, but their words get published.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Feminists may say men who leer at women, follow them around, catcall them, are objectifying them. Correctly. All people look at anything that catches their attention, including the exceptionally attractive. Those of us who are mature adults have learned to respect others by not glowering at them, or bothering them.

This is, like, kindergarten-level manners. We all learn this the first time we see someone in a wheelchair. That so many men are still whining about the supposed complexity of basic lessons in decency that most 5-year-olds have figured out is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Then it's not really a "feminist issue" but more of a basic manners issue.
I have a person in my family who has a physical disability, they get leering from all types of people and are even spoken down to like they're mentally special needs.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
You don't have difficulty understanding it. You just refuse to acknowledge that the onus is on you to have basic manners. That no one else is responsible for how you treat women, but you.

And this is the problem. There are still substantial numbers of people arguing that women are responsible for men mistreating them, and the rejection of that should be even louder than it is, if anything.
Click to expand...

I treat women as people, I treat people as people regardless of gender.
I don't have to adopt an "ism" to do that.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
If you aren't going to read stuff, don't make up a bunch of **** in place of refusing to do the research.
Click to expand...

I did read it.
It's just incredibly limited and shouldn't be considered as "smoking gun proof."
 
roguenuke said:
You seem to think that things being jokes indicates that the issues those jokes address can't be real or are being overstated. This isn't really the case. They generally are good indicators that there is some sort of issue here, that maybe this is how more people than you believe view the situation or that this is what is going on. It can still be a joke and funny, and also address a real issue.
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A joke doesn't make it an issue.
It's just a reality.
The majority of non casual gamers are men.

It doesn't have to be sexism, for that to be true.
You don't need parity for their to be, not sexism.

roguenuke said:
And just because some do it to other groups, make such limitations, doesn't make it less "wrong". If someone only wanted to play with "white" players or "Christian" players, would that be fine? Would you not see the issue with having such a distinction? Even if the claim was "well I had bad experience with < people with X characteristic> in the past", which is essentially one of the excuses you just made? I'm not saying they wouldn't have a right to do it, but it should still be pointed out for what it is, bull**** or sexism, when it happens.
Click to expand...

Sexism is the belief that one gender is superior to another.
Discriminating, for whatever reason, is not necessarily sexism.

Grossly misusing the term has rendered it, along with racism, meaningless name calling.
 
Phys251 said:
I believe you. Anti-feminists believe that their feelings are more important than the physical safety of women and girls everywhere.

If that isn't narcissism, I don't know what is.

:thumbs:
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There's an old saying addressing this narcissism that goes, "Men are afraid women will reject them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

When we still have brains that tend to think as though we live in small tribes, reading about systems of oppression can be difficult. I've been on both ends of that, as someone who occupies positions on both ends of the kyriarchy ladder, as many of us do.

But ultimately, my insecurities are not as important as other people's well-being and lives. And all I hear from people who are always whining about the oppressed daring to complain about their oppression is, "But my feels! Stop complaining about your rape/hate crime/police brutality! My feels!"

I understand that tribe-mind wall of feels we can get, and I'm perfectly prepared to help someone work through that -- which can be done quite swiftly, actually. But these people are just convinced to make victims of themselves to detract from the real victimization that other people suffer because then they don't have to think about themselves or the world around them.

They don't want to feel better, they don't want to hear anything that might relieve their feelings, because if they did that, they would have to admit other people besides them have problems, and perhaps even problems that they don't.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Yes, the study was limited to an incredibly small number, of one type of game, in one group.
We don't know the age, race, nationality, etc of these people, only the presumed gender.

That's poor research and the numbers don't necessarily scale, when you go up.
Beware the one study and small sample size.
Click to expand...

Why the hell would you in something based on voice?

Again, you're just refusing to read any of it.

For me to believe most of that, I'd have to see numbers.
Something can be a problem, but not a significant problem.
Click to expand...

You have, dozens of times that I can recall on DP. As always, you refused to read them. I am frankly too much of an old timer around here to bother with the demonstrably incorrigible.

We just had a major shooting of a clinic not too long ago. One big reasons DOTA was repealed was so that lesbians could actually DO SOMETHING about "corrective rape," and this was discussed often during the debates. There's an entire wikipedia page about anti-choice terrorism, and Rush Limbaugh made his name in the 21st century slut shaming an advocate for women's access to birth control.

If you are determined to ignore all of those things, which I know with certainty you are well-aware of, then you're going to ignore one more link out of dozens you've already received.

This is an issue of you and your ego, not some kind of lack of evidence.

Of course no one said that too me.
These people are cowards that hide behind the interwebs, just like internet trolls.
They wouldn't be tolerated in the real world, but their words get published.
Click to expand...

No, they don't. I haven't even read extreme militant lesbian separatists say that men thinking a woman looks nice is oppression, let alone oppression akin to rape, even online. Show me where.

Then it's not really a "feminist issue" but more of a basic manners issue.
I have a person in my family who has a physical disability, they get leering from all types of people and are even spoken down to like they're mentally special needs.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. And of course, there is also an entire movement that talks about disability oppression, and feminists who talk about the intersectionality of how disability and female sex can create unique problems (along with intersections of all sorts of other stuff).

So why are you trying to paint this as something more than basic manners that is just so incredibly difficult to understand?

I treat women as people, I treat people as people regardless of gender.
I don't have to adopt an "ism" to do that.
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So why are you complaining when feminists point out that there are still substantial numbers of men who don't?

Ok. Your mama raised you right. Not everyone's mama did the same. What is bad about feminism addressing issues specific to women?

Taking on all of inequality is an impossibly big task. That is why women have their own movement, as do the disabled, as do ethnic minorities, and even within that, many have focuses. Some just do stuff related to job inequality. Some just do stuff related to intimacy. Some just do stuff related to medical concerns. Because these are complicated issues, and trying to divide your time between all of them is a quick path to nowhere.

Why does it bother you that there is a movement specifically about women's issues?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Why the hell would you in something based on voice?

Again, you're just refusing to read any of it.
Click to expand...

I did read it, that's how I figured out the incredibly small sample size.
Hell there is even more realistic criticism of it, in more depth from someone who looked through the whole study.
Pretty interesting read.

https://medium.com/@mousetick/bad-j...**s-up-games-research-bea5f6d0e58f#.pjliq5nbv

SmokeAndMirrors said:
You have, dozens of times that I can recall on DP. As always, you refused to read them. I am frankly too much of an old timer around here to bother with the demonstrably incorrigible.
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I don't refuse to read.
I refuse to patronize certain sites, because they're full of biased garbage, clickbait or both.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
We just had a major shooting of a clinic not too long ago. One big reasons DOTA was repealed was so that lesbians could actually DO SOMETHING about "corrective rape," and this was discussed often during the debates. There's an entire wikipedia page about anti-choice terrorism, and Rush Limbaugh made his name in the 21st century slut shaming an advocate for women's access to birth control.
Click to expand...

Rush limbaugh or whatever doesn't mean anything.
He's a shock jock and says stupid stuff.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
If you are determined to ignore all of those things, which I know with certainty you are well-aware of, then you're going to ignore one more link out of dozens you've already received.

This is an issue of you and your ego, not some kind of lack of evidence.
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No I'm not well aware of it.
If there is some real epidemic, I'd be concerned.
While even though I care for and am concerned about limited instances, that doesn't require national movement.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
No, they don't. I haven't even read extreme militant lesbian separatists say that men thinking a woman looks nice is oppression, let alone oppression akin to rape, even online. Show me where.
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Just because you don't read it, doesn't mean there aren't plenty saying stupid ****.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Yes, it is. And of course, there is also an entire movement that talks about disability oppression, and feminists who talk about the intersectionality of how disability and female sex can create unique problems (along with intersections of all sorts of other stuff).
Click to expand...

See, that's the thing, people can be assholes/rude to other people are not be "oppressed."
Using "oppressed" is incredibly, eyerolling hyperbolic.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
So why are you trying to paint this as something more than basic manners that is just so incredibly difficult to understand?
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I'm not, leering is bad, looking is not.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
So why are you complaining when feminists point out that there are still substantial numbers of men who don't?

Ok. Your mama raised you right. Not everyone's mama did the same. What is bad about feminism addressing issues specific to women?
Click to expand...

I certainly dispute the numbers.
Substantial, doubtful, a minority sure.

The claims are often exaggerated, in my opinion.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Taking on all of inequality is an impossibly big task. That is why women have their own movement, as do the disabled, as do ethnic minorities, and even within that, many have focuses. Some just do stuff related to job inequality. Some just do stuff related to intimacy. Some just do stuff related to medical concerns. Because these are complicated issues, and trying to divide your time between all of them is a quick path to nowhere.

Why does it bother you that there is a movement specifically about women's issues?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with a movement about women's issues.
The problem is with the the dishonesty, inconsistent things said and done.

Not all or most are dishonest or necessarily inconsistent, but often there are issues that are made to be men bad, women victim.
When it's not really like that.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Equality is NOT the goal, they turned out to not be satisfied with that when they got the idea that they could grab more.

You are 20 years out of date at the very least, I was in 1986 meeting feminists who wanted more.

Human nature struck again.

SAD.
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More what? Equal pay?
 
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